Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

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Raman Deep Singh
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Post by Raman Deep Singh » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:26 pm

Hello Rishirahul ji,

Can we move ahead in this Chapter of Arudha.I am really looking forward for knowing more about this.

Regards,
Raman

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Post by RishiRahul » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:44 pm

Raman Deep Singh wrote:Hello Rishirahul ji,

Can we move ahead in this Chapter of Arudha.I am really looking forward for knowing more about this.

Regards,
Raman
Namashkaar Ramanji,

We will certainly continue this somewhat later. The Arudha is a difficult concept and let us/the students make some time to breathe it in.

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Post by mysbcrs » Sun May 02, 2010 8:18 am

Namaskaar Rishi ji and Vivek ji

I was rereading the lesson. A doubt arose relating to a very fundamental understanding of sathya and maaya. Request you to clarify.

To my mind, there appears to be three (not two) distinct possibilities in relation to an event/result and its perception.

1. The true event/result (Sathya)
2. Perception of the native about the event/result
3. Percpetion of the event/result by others (maaya)

The lesson associated 1st with lagna and 3rd with aroodha. What about 2nd?

For e.g, a native has done his doctorate in a subject from a good university (sathya) but is not happy since he is eyeing a few doctorates (native's perception). People around him perceive him to be highly educated and knowledeable (Aroodha).

Also, I have seen experienced astrologers guessing lagna of native from physical features and behavioural traits. Will this not actually determine the Aroodha rather than lagna?

CRS
CRS

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Post by vivekvshetty » Thu May 06, 2010 7:42 pm

Namaskaar CRS ji,
Our answers below.
mysbcrs wrote:Namaskaar Rishi ji and Vivek ji

I was rereading the lesson. A doubt arose relating to a very fundamental understanding of sathya and maaya. Request you to clarify.

To my mind, there appears to be three (not two) distinct possibilities in relation to an event/result and its perception.

1. The true event/result (Sathya)
2. Perception of the native about the event/result
3. Percpetion of the event/result by others (maaya)

The lesson associated 1st with lagna and 3rd with aroodha. What about 2nd?
Maybe Graha Aaroodha. But we are still not very sure.
For e.g, a native has done his doctorate in a subject from a good university (sathya) but is not happy since he is eyeing a few doctorates (native's perception). People around him perceive him to be highly educated and knowledeable (Aroodha).

Also, I have seen experienced astrologers guessing lagna of native from physical features and behavioural traits. Will this not actually determine the Aroodha rather than lagna?
See the underlined words. There are many techniques for this and who knows what hey really use?
CRS
Rishirahul and vivek.

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Post by Certain » Thu May 19, 2011 1:02 am

mysbcrs wrote:Namaskaar Rishi ji and Vivek ji

I was rereading the lesson. A doubt arose relating to a very fundamental understanding of sathya and maaya. Request you to clarify.

To my mind, there appears to be three (not two) distinct possibilities in relation to an event/result and its perception.

1. The true event/result (Sathya)
2. Perception of the native about the event/result
3. Percpetion of the event/result by others (maaya)

The lesson associated 1st with lagna and 3rd with aroodha. What about 2nd?

For e.g, a native has done his doctorate in a subject from a good university (sathya) but is not happy since he is eyeing a few doctorates (native's perception). People around him perceive him to be highly educated and knowledeable (Aroodha).

Also, I have seen experienced astrologers guessing lagna of native from physical features and behavioural traits. Will this not actually determine the Aroodha rather than lagna?

CRS
Shouldnt second correspond to chandra lagna.
SG

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Post by RishiRahul » Fri May 20, 2011 4:26 am

Certain wrote:
mysbcrs wrote:Namaskaar Rishi ji and Vivek ji

I was rereading the lesson. A doubt arose relating to a very fundamental understanding of sathya and maaya. Request you to clarify.

To my mind, there appears to be three (not two) distinct possibilities in relation to an event/result and its perception.

1. The true event/result (Sathya)
vivek & RishiRahul=From the lagna


2. Perception of the native about the event/result
vivek & RishiRahul=from moon.  Moon is the karaka for Arudha Lagna.

3. Percpetion of the event/result by others (maaya)
vivek & RishiRahul=From Arudha Lagna



The lesson associated 1st with lagna and 3rd with aroodha. What about 2nd?
vivek & RishiRahul=Your query is not clear.

For e.g, a native has done his doctorate in a subject from a good university (sathya) but is not happy since he is eyeing a few doctorates (native's perception). People around him perceive him to be highly educated and knowledeable (Aroodha).

Also, I have seen experienced astrologers guessing lagna of native from physical features and behavioural traits. Will this not actually determine the Aroodha rather than lagna?
vivek & RishiRahul=both are important in different ways. Apply the 'true looks' and how others would 'perceive' that look.

CRS
Shouldnt second correspond to chandra lagna.
SG

Namashkaar Certainji,

In addition to the above, this is to add that more deeper than usual concepts are attained by other Arudhas beyond the scope of our present lessons in this topic.

Thus answering this in depth now would only mislead/be unclear.

For now,

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Upapada

Post by pranavg » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:39 am

Namaskar all,

I was wondering why Arudha of 12th house (UL) is considered for marriage and spouse related information?
Why 12th house?

And is UL seen from Rashi chart or Navamsa for spouse and marriage related matter?
I believe it should be Navamsa but then what significance does UL in Rashi chart holds?

Looking forward to your insights.

Thanks and regards,
Pranav

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Re: Upapada

Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:31 am

pranavg wrote:Namaskar all,

I was wondering why Arudha of 12th house (UL) is considered for marriage and spouse related information?
Why 12th house?

And is UL seen from Rashi chart or Navamsa for spouse and marriage related matter?
I believe it should be Navamsa but then what significance does UL in Rashi chart holds?

Looking forward to your insights.

Thanks and regards,
Pranav
According to a few Astros, it has to do with one aspect of the 12th house which deals with one component of marriage, or at least traditionally had been the case. It used to be loss of celibacy (brahmacharya) and also shayan-sajja sukh. Others treat the term more literally as indicating 'pleasant sleep'.

In modern times such concepts and norms have changed drastically and some may consider irrelevant. Other than traditional (orthodox) societies, marriage itself has changed in its description, roles and responsibilities so it must have a deeper implication intended by the ancient proponents of astrology.

With the (12th or 2nd?) diversity of opinions regarding what constitutes upapda, discussed recently, there arises yet another interesting angle (also raised a few days ago).

Perhaps there is a way out...? Collect some charts of couples known to you and do a retrospective study to see if their ULs make sense in terms of describing the partner, the marriage, etc. Ultimately, if you are going to use astrology practically you will have to get used to doing that in much of astrology, as opposed to having blind faith in what people wrote or said.

I hope I am not sounding too heretical? ;-)
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Re: Upapada

Post by Rohiniranjan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:04 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:31 am
...
Perhaps there is a way out...? Collect some charts of couples known to you and do a retrospective study to see if their ULs make sense in terms of describing the partner, the marriage, etc. Ultimately, if you are going to use astrology practically you will have to get used to doing that in much of astrology, as opposed to having blind faith in what people wrote or said.

...
Two years have passed but the above still remains true! Whether it be ayanamsha difference or zodiac difference (S vs T) or whatever other questions that keep returning and crossing our work-desks!

Actually, more like 40 years or even longer? I recall seeing the same types of questions, diverse opinions of differing 'balas' (strengths). Folks older have shared the same status quo from even earlier than that! ;-)
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Re: Upapada

Post by RishiRahul » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:56 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:04 am
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:31 am
...
Perhaps there is a way out...? Collect some charts of couples known to you and do a retrospective study to see if their ULs make sense in terms of describing the partner, the marriage, etc. Ultimately, if you are going to use astrology practically you will have to get used to doing that in much of astrology, as opposed to having blind faith in what people wrote or said.

...
Two years have passed but the above still remains true! Whether it be ayanamsha difference or zodiac difference (S vs T) or whatever other questions that keep returning and crossing our work-desks!

Actually, more like 40 years or even longer? I recall seeing the same types of questions, diverse opinions of differing 'balas' (strengths). Folks older have shared the same status quo from even earlier than that! ;-)

Dada,

I, personally have found UL make sense in actual birthcharts. That said, we are to also understand and accept that a single factor in astrology should not be treated as the 'Be all and end all'.

A version of BPHS states that the Upapada Lagna confers happiness from wife.
UL1.jpg
"Upa" means near or relating to (as well as giving and ornament), and is calculated from the sign near and related to the lagna and shows the person who ends up near and relating to you.....

The logic goes .....The 12th house from the Lagna is what you have given, what you physically give,and where you give your intelligence/energy. The 12th house indicates jail, hospital, ashram, loss, pleasures of the bed, sleeping (loss of consciousness), as well as the bed where you sleep. Charity is a form of energy, and the 12th house shows where you give your energy.......Freedom Vidya.

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Re: Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:31 am

More than meaning just "near", Upa is a prefix that means Sub-, vice-. next in order-, such as upa-mantri (vice-minister or one down from minister) and similarly upa-senapati (vice-commander), upa-kulpati (universities) etc.

Neither astronomically (in order of rising), nor astrological counting of houses (2nd counted after 1, 3 counted after 2, so on, with the count ending with 12th which is the last) does 12 follow 1, but rather, 2 follows 1 :-)

Therefore many use the 2nd house (kutumba sthan) as the seed for counting upapada. Kutumba is relevant to standard meaning in terms of wife, ones children etc and so the above and this are relevant along lines of what you quoted from Parashara, and it is topically and thematically also congruent with what sector etc we understand as to matters pertaining to upapada bhav etc.

Others count from 12th which is the last house as the count goes in a horoscope of 12 houses. Why the last one used as the seed for counting upapada? Because the dara-karaka or kalatra-karaka in modern gender-appropriate times, is the last one counted in the order of counting chara karakas.
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Re: Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:52 pm

Although in recent times (unlike very recent times!) female spouses had been taken for granted pretty much globally, amongst cultured segments of ancient eastern societies, ladies/mothers were held in high esteem.

Yet, I often wondered why atmakaraka (I) was the most advanced planet in Chara scheme, whereas, darakaraka (SHE) the representative of the MA of next generation (continuity) was the one that was the youngest in the couple (planet with least advancement in its sign?)

In ancient times (even 18th-20th century India, perhaps earlier as well), brides used to be - generally- lot younger than most grooms. Together, in a typical older family with father relegated by society, rightly or wrongly, as the external projection of a family (perhaps not just Indian but other cultures too?) while the mother held the fort and generally used to be the one that -- formally educated or not -- taught the children (boys and girls) languages (mother tongue?) or love for expression and ability to come in contact with emotions-affect and expression?).

I once had a hunch that I shall share today, regardless of past experiences here, there, everywhere that hasty folks shall gobble it up and make a mess of it, AS USUAL...? :smt004

A family, whether rich or poor, powerful or weak (commonplace), is like a fortress, or perhaps a circle of protection, containment which has two points covering the circle (or describing it as...): just as the lunar nodal circle? ;-)

Please do not run with the hasty understanding (so typical?) if some *reader* thinks that I am claiming that AK and DK are like Rahu and Ketu? Or parents are like those two...?? <LOL>
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Re: Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

Post by RishiRahul » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:31 am
More than meaning just "near", Upa is a prefix that means Sub-, vice-. next in order-, such as upa-mantri (vice-minister or one down from minister) and similarly upa-senapati (vice-commander), upa-kulpati (universities) etc.

Neither astronomically (in order of rising), nor astrological counting of houses (2nd counted after 1, 3 counted after 2, so on, with the count ending with 12th which is the last) does 12 follow 1, but rather, 2 follows 1 :-)

Therefore many use the 2nd house (kutumba sthan) as the seed for counting upapada. Kutumba is relevant to standard meaning in terms of wife, ones children etc and so the above and this are relevant along lines of what you quoted from Parashara, and it is topically and thematically also congruent with what sector etc we understand as to matters pertaining to upapada bhav etc.

Others count from 12th which is the last house as the count goes in a horoscope of 12 houses. Why the last one used as the seed for counting upapada? Because the dara-karaka or kalatra-karaka in modern gender-appropriate times, is the last one counted in the order of counting chara karakas.
There must be valid reasons for Parashara and Jaimini choosing the last house for counting upapada.

The logic behind this, as explained by 'Freedom Vidya' is given below:=
Why does the UL represent the marriage partner?

First one needs to understand the 12th house more deeply and then see how the UL is the person representing this. The Upapada (also called guana pada) is that which rides the 12th house, it shows who is the image of the 12th house. The 12th house from the Lagna is what you have given, what you physically give,and where you give your intelligence/energy. The 12th house indicates jail, hospital, ashram, loss, pleasures of the bed, sleeping (loss of consciousness), as well as the bed where you sleep. Charity is a form of energy, and the 12th house shows where you give your energy. Benefics in the 12th are called shubha yoga and show giving to good things. Malefics in the 12th are called Ashubha yoga and indicate putting energy into negative things. The Sun is in maranakaraka sthana in the 12th house because is the house of Saturn, and there is no life/light there. When A3, A9, AS3, AS9 are 12th, 2nd, 6th or 8th from the Sun it indicates no ability to give life for this reason.

The 12th house is a house of loss or giving and the Arudha of it shows who you are giving to. Those you give to the most are often your wife and children. Marriage itself happens when one starts earning and one is able to give. Sometimes this giving might just be giving money for support, sometimes this giving will be home caring. The importance is that if there is no giving then there is nothing to sustain a relationship. If the partner didn’t do anything for you, you would not want to marry them.

The 7th house is the 8th from 12th house, it shows what is removing separateness and giving marriage. The 12th house doesn’t show sex it shows being alone/celibate and the 7th house (8th from that) is what ends being alone. The 12th house is connected to sanyas and celibacy, the 8th from this ends that, and makes a person get married and removes celibacy, therefore the 7th house needs to be pure to maintain sanyas, and longevity of sanyas is seen from the 7th house. Therefore the A7 is used to see the sexual partner and sexual relations, not the UL.

The 12th house is the 8th from the 5th house, it will show the longevity of your kula/lineage/family. The UL shows who will help you give longevity to your kula/family/lineage. The 7th house is 3rd from the 5th house showing it is upachaya from the 5th , meaning it will make your kula grow. The 12th house is 6th from the 7th which is also upachaya for the 7th house, which means it will make sex increase, it is therefore connected to the pleasures of the bed, the place to be alone to grow the 7th house, to mature it into real intimacy. The 6th house on the other hand is 2nd from the 5th and is therefore a maraka (death giver) to the 5th house, it is not good for children or increasing the kula and indicates celibacy. It is important to note that the twelfth house is important for relationship but it doesn’t represent sexual desires.

The AL is the maya of the lagna and the UL is the maya of the 12th house. It shows something tangible that is being given or lost. It shows who will help increase the longevity of the kula (family). As the 12th house is 6th from the 7th it shows who gives upachaya to the 7th, who helps it grow, so it is the person who helps in the cultivation of what is shared as sex in the 7th house. In Jyotish, this is seen as the marriage partner and the UL lord indicates the marriage partner’s family.

How is “marriage” to be defined astrologically?

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Re: Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:30 pm

Rishirahul,

Thanks for ?quoting from *Freedom Vidya? Is this a contemporary or some ancient writer/text etc...?

You stated/quoted, "The 7th house is the 8th from 12th house, it shows what is removing separateness and giving marriage."

Then you stated/quoted, "The 12th house is the 8th from the 5th house, it will show the longevity of your kula/lineage/family"

In the first instance 7th (8th from 12th) is removing or shortening/eliminating the attributes of 12 (loss, separation etc).
In the next quoted instance 8th from 5th is prolonging the kula-family-progeny, etc. This *8th* seems to remind one like a dwiswabhava entity. In binary context it seems to act both as a '1' as well as '0' depending on the fancy of the beholder! ;-)

Then you quoted/stated, "The AL is the maya of the lagna and the UL is the maya of the 12th house. It shows something tangible that is being given or lost."
How can Maya which is illusory be a tangible...?
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Re: Lesson 16: THE ARUDHAS - Real Truth and Perceptive Truth

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:45 pm

... also 'anuchara' means one that follows and not one who precedes! As I state earlier in a message-response, neither in the order of counting the houses (astrologically), nor in the order of rising (astronomically), does 12th house come after the 1st! Even in BPHS which is generally more lucid and straight-forward uses indirect references (such as anuchara) which then create some obfuscation (sadly) in readers. Maybe such a style and codified language such as katapayadi etc create another layer of confusion. It almost seems like the ancients were worried about protecting their gems from mriyulok-pundits! :smt004
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