Lesson 10- Benefics and Malefics (Functional and Natural)

This is the main Vedic Astrology Learning Forum. General Vedic Astrology lessons and questions and answers can be addressed here.

Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123, RishiRahul, vivekvshetty

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 pm

Hi Vivek ji and Rishirahul ji,
I again went back to this chapter and was going through it.Cant help going back to chapters :-D but just go back for better explanation...

1.
The natural benefic and malefic are from the perspective of the whole (Macro viewpoint), you may call them as social and anti social elements of the society.
Functional benefic and malefic are from the perspective of the individual (micro viewpoint) - What I as a person find desirable and undesirable
.  

Is this MACRO is something like ARUDHA or it means from higher point of view .. i mean from point of view of learning....But since you have mentioned
you may call them as social and anti social elements of the society.
so it seems more closer to ARUDHA definition ... though not exactly but yes clsoe to it...

What you think about my perception..

2.According to your definition....
In consideration of horoscope..do you thinkfunctional malefic will trouble person more than natural malefic....


Regards,
Raman

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:17 pm

Please answer my doubts mentioned below:

* Question on what happens if lord of a house is functional malefic/benefic

vivek and RishiRahul= Parashara has given characteristics for all lagnas. How? Is an answer to your question. For a Meena lagna let us take a natural nenefic which turns into a functional malefic: Venus.=3rd.+8th. lord
+ love/sex. Meaning that the meen natives should beware of handling the love and health and communications aspects well... or else there will be trouble to handle.
Mercury(natural benefic) is a badhak and possesses dosha. Meaning that the home and spouse/relating to others would be important to the native; but it would have impediments.
Mars a natural malefic is a functional benefic. Meaning that here is an avenue we can change/need to change to achieve productivity/obtain benefits/lucrative are to develop.
Moon, a natural and functional benefic. Meaning an area which will be an important area in life always= creativity + children. Such lagnas creativity will be related to their children directly and indirectly.
The natures of lagnas has been decided by these natural and functional factors, in SHORT.

Given that it is an accepted principle that:
"Significance of a house manifests through the lord of the house as
one of the factors", how does this change, when the lord is functional
benefic/malefic?

vivek and RishiRahul=Explained above. Further changes/ultimate results happen due to postion and aspects. Apply imagination/develop it...more advanced.

If lord of a house is a functional malefic does it signify bad for the
things specified by the house?

vivek and RishiRahul=explained above.
Given that functional benefic signifies good for things specified by
the house, can we say that:
1. Good if dustana lord is malefic
2. Good if other house lords are benefic

I understand that it depends on other factors like aspects, occupants etc...I want to know the effect of a malefic house lord on the sustana/dustana houses

vivek and RishiRahul=Explained above.


* Question on houses signifying wrt other house.
6th house signifies enemies. Now 5th house is 12th (loss) from 6th:
Does this mean loss of enemies OR loss to enemies.

vivek and RishiRahul= 6th. house besides enemies stands for so many others things. When we think in terms of enemies and we it is the 7th. house and we. 5th. house is 11th. of 7th. meaning gain to enemies.
5th is the house of loss/undoing to the 6th. house= Undoing to upachaya(6th) is pleasure(5th) or loss to maternal uncle(6th).
Which is right interpretation?
Similary 4th house is 11th (win) from 6th: Does this mean win of enemies or win over enemies.

vivek and RishiRahul=Apply your imagination and give a reply. Let us sometimes answer through you.


Again in this reply you have mentioned about Venus and other planets..
You said for meena lagna we need to take care of things related to love and Sex but where is the par played by benefic nature of Venus...Being functional malefic for meena lagna Venus will not be good but being natural benefic it shud have benefic result at least AS PER MACRO point of view.....
Does it mean having many girlfriend/boyfriends..... ;-) coz this may show having goof venusivian enjoyment but may not be good from MICRO point of view...

Lets consider Leo lagna..again mercuryis functional malefic(2nd and 11th house owner) but natural benefic(also lets consider its conjunction with benefic planet,to make it natural benefic)...thus will it lead us to conclusion that we need to be careful about affairs dealing with money, wealth and also shud care of our speech(2nd house owner and also natural karaka of speech)...

Also Karka Lagna....mercury is again Function malefic(3rd and 12th house lord)and natural benefic...(again benefic conjunction to make it netural benefic...)Now what will you say about mercury...


Just trying to fully grasp this difference..

Let me try about karka lagan also lik i did for leo...
Mercury may lead to excessive travelling and thus making native unsettled and also unsatisfaction from sibling and may b forced cartaking of him/her(micro consideration)...But being natural benefic it will lead to making native mroe caring and understanding and also good or atleaset tactical speech..


My main motive is to understand and FULLY GRASP both th roles of a planet as natural and functional malefic/benefic SIMULTANEOUSLY....How it takes care of BOTH THE ROLES SIMULTANEOUSLY....

Regards,
Raman

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:56 pm

Raman Deep Singh wrote:Hi Vivek ji and Rishirahul ji,
I again went back to this chapter and was going through it.Cant help going back to chapters :-D but just go back for better explanation...

1.
The natural benefic and malefic are from the perspective of the whole (Macro viewpoint), you may call them as social and anti social elements of the society.
Functional benefic and malefic are from the perspective of the individual (micro viewpoint) - What I as a person find desirable and undesirable
.  

Is this MACRO is something like ARUDHA or it means from higher point of view .. i mean from point of view of learning....But since you have mentioned
you may call them as social and anti social elements of the society.

so it seems more closer to ARUDHA definition ... though not exactly but yes clsoe to it...

What you think about my perception..

vivek and Rishiahul= Arudha is about the others perception about you. Do not confuse it with benefics and malefics.

2.According to your definition....
In consideration of horoscope..do you thinkfunctional malefic will trouble person more than natural malefic....

vivek and RishiRahul= Natural malefic is one which is intrinsically possessng malefic qualities.

When it becomes a functional benefic it means that, though it is intrinsically a malefic (or malefic by nature), it acts beneficially for the particular ascendant, like giving development according to its lordship, star content etc. But still, the person will feel its intrinsic malefic qualities during the process.


Regards,
Raman
Hope it is clearer now.

vivek and RishiRahul

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:36 am

Dear Rishirahul ji,
I do understand Arudha is a different concept and shudnt be confused with but then wat is the meaning of MACRO and MICRO in this concept...

Also please give an example to make us understand how a planet being natural benefic(or malefic) and Fucntional Malefic(or benefic)plays is role in chart simlutaneoulsy...
Lets consider Leo lagna..again mercuryis functional malefic(2nd and 11th house owner) but natural benefic(also lets consider its conjunction with benefic planet,to make it natural benefic)...thus will it lead us to conclusion that we need to be careful about affairs dealing with money, wealth and also shud care of our speech(2nd house owner and also natural karaka of speech)...

Also Karka Lagna....mercury is again Function malefic(3rd and 12th house lord)and natural benefic...(again benefic conjunction to make it netural benefic...)Now what will you say about mercury...
Please do give and example and make us understand....

Regards,
Raman

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:35 am

Raman Deep Singh wrote:Dear Rishirahul ji,
I do understand Arudha is a different concept and shudnt be confused with but then wat is the meaning of MACRO and MICRO in this concept...

vivek and RishiRahul= Macro is the bigger/wider picture; micro is the smaller/more focused picture.

For example Mars is a natural malefic and its dasa will give some internal/external aggression/aggressive/sudden developmental factors building up for any ascendant== bigger/macro picture.

Again for lets say for Simha Lagna it becomes the 4th and 9th lord, becoming a functional benefic, giving development in landed property/learning thru education/better maturity/residential changes etc and development thru them==smaller/more focused/micro picture.

( but thru difficulty/sudden/with unexpected uneasiness causing internal or external aggression/not easy=macro).



Also please give an example to make us understand how a planet being natural benefic(or malefic) and Fucntional Malefic(or benefic)plays is role in chart simlutaneoulsy...
Lets consider Leo lagna..again mercuryis functional malefic(2nd and 11th house owner) but natural benefic(also lets consider its conjunction with benefic planet,to make it natural benefic)...thus will it lead us to conclusion that we need to be careful about affairs dealing with money, wealth and also shud care of our speech(2nd house owner and also natural karaka of speech)...

Also Karka Lagna....mercury is again Function malefic(3rd and 12th house lord)and natural benefic...(again benefic conjunction to make it netural benefic...)Now what will you say about mercury...
Please do give and example and make us understand....

Regards,
Raman

We have given some hints for mars for your lagna. Similarly adapt it to other mercury.
We await your reply.

vivek and RishiRahul
RishiRahul.com
Astro-Palmist & Numerologist
Accurate timings & solutions to specific questions

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:14 pm

Dear Rishirahul ji and Vivek ji,
Thank you for your reply.
Let me try it for few other as mentioned by you....
To get it further right....
For leo Lagna ;-
1.Saturn is natural malefic but owning 7th and 6th house makes it still malefic coz even though satrurn is natural malefic owning kendra it is also owning 6th house thus a functional malefic...though we can also consider it neutral but still i think it shud be on malefic side...
Result of the lord depends on the natural benefic/ malefic nature. If it is a natural benefic then it suffers from Kendradhipatya dosha (a flaw arising out of owning a Kendra), it can be taken as a malefic only if it owns another malefic Bhaava (i.e. 3, 6, 8, 11, and 12).
Thus marriage can be late or of ,can have hidden enemies and also

2.Jupiter:- 5th and 8th house..thus neutral ....What you think about this one...?
I think somewhere you did mention that 5th lord is given more value on 8th lord thus jupiter shud be functional as well as natuiraul benefic..Am i right??

3.Mercury:- 2nd and 11th house..It shud be Functional Malefic coz of lordship..(lets make it natural benefic by association :-) ) thus person will get problem is speaking..stammering or speech shud be bit wavery..may make person look lik indecisive and can result in multiple acquaintance but not a good friend...If business is tried it shud not be sudden start and will coz problem is acquirring of resources

I wanna try further but dont wanna cost much of your time.. :-)

let me put one more question :-) ..Why so:-
Randhra lordship of Surya and Chandra is not evil.
Regards,
Raman

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:07 pm

Also can you please tell which one is given more preference..

1.  When trikona lord is also lord of 3,6,8,11 or 12.does it make palnet Fuinctional malefic or Functional benefic

2. When Kendra lord(malefic/benefic) is also lord of 3,6,8,11,or 12...

Regards,
Raman

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:16 pm

Raman Deep Singh wrote:Dear Rishirahul ji and Vivek ji,
Thank you for your reply.
Let me try it for few other as mentioned by you....
To get it further right....
For leo Lagna ;-
1.Saturn is natural malefic but owning 7th and 6th house makes it still malefic coz even though satrurn is natural malefic owning kendra it is also owning 6th house thus a functional malefic...though we can also consider it neutral but still i think it shud be on malefic side...

RishiRahul=Saturns 6th and 7th lordship would mean late marriage for all Leo natives as per what you say. Shouldn't we see its position too?
Saturn as 6th. lord can give good development the hard way during the first half of dasha.

Result of the lord depends on the natural benefic/ malefic nature. If it is a natural benefic then it suffers from Kendradhipatya dosha (a flaw arising out of owning a Kendra), it can be taken as a malefic only if it owns another malefic Bhaava (i.e. 3, 6, 8, 11, and 12).
Thus marriage can be late or of ,can have hidden enemies and also

RishiRahul=It is not a certainty that the marriage will have hidden enemies.
For Leo natives, in general, marriage can have some enemy problems. Again placement/aspect of Saturn is the decisive factor.

2.Jupiter:- 5th and 8th house..thus neutral ....What you think about this one...?
I think somewhere you did mention that 5th lord is given more value on 8th lord thus jupiter shud be functional as well as natuiraul benefic..Am i right??

RishiRahul= Jupiter getting 5th, lordship is very good, but it getting 8th. lordship affects the potential rajayoga qualities of such a Jupiter. Of course the 5th. house good rules over the bad and also the possibility exists that the 1st part of the dasha gives the good results.

3.Mercury:- 2nd and 11th house..It shud be Functional Malefic coz of lordship..(lets make it natural benefic by association :-) ) thus person will get problem is speaking..stammering or speech shud be bit wavery..may make person look lik indecisive and can result in multiple acquaintance but not a good friend...If business is tried it shud not be sudden start and will coz problem is acquirring of resources

RishiRahul=Mercury, though a malefic here can be good for finances. The speaking  and following mentioned things would be overextending imagination.
If such a mercury has good associations then it should be a better story.

I wanna try further but dont wanna cost much of your time.. :-)

let me put one more question :-) ..Why so:-
Randhra lordship of Surya and Chandra is not evil.
RishiRahul= Why do you think it is so?

Regards,
Raman
[/b]
RishiRahul.com
Astro-Palmist & Numerologist
Accurate timings & solutions to specific questions

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:46 pm

Dear Rishirahul ji,
RishiRahul=Saturns 6th and 7th lordship would mean late marriage for all Leo natives as per what you say. Shouldn't we see its position too?
Can you tell what position will coz it...will we consider it from 7th house lordship(for Leo asc)point of view or what??
Please can you give a bit direct n elaborate reply for this query...That how position of saturn in LEO Asc will coz late or early marriage........

Quote:
Randhra lordship of Surya and Chandra is not evil.  


RishiRahul= Why do you think it is so?
Very frankly no idea....Cant think of anything justified....Please reply....

Regards,
Raman

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:27 am

Namashkaar Raman ji,

Regarding the position of Saturn for Leo Lagna: Like normal in charts, the aspect of Saturn  or its position to the 7th. house from Lagna/Arudha Lagna can delay marriage.
Also, conjunctions, opposition or aspects to moon give much clue to the delay (enemies of Saturn).

Randhra lordship of Surya and Chandra is not evil:= This is because Sun and Moon are the only planets which do not have double lordship.
Any other planet having the lordship of 8th. (randhra) would have some other lordship too, which would aid in vitiating the other lordship house.

Try computing other lordships one by one for all lagnas and you will see the above.

Sun and Moon being luminaries and having 8th. lordship is not damaging.

Hope this helped,

vivek and RishiRahul
RishiRahul.com
Astro-Palmist & Numerologist
Accurate timings & solutions to specific questions

tea pot
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:10 am
Location: denver

Benefics and Malefics/lLords can be both

Post by tea pot » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:14 pm

The way I understand the dual role that a planet can produce is very simple. As a malefic influence it can cause an energy that cannot be ignored, all  the negative influences.  It manifests its terror through the houses it rules or aspects .The lessons we learn through the struggle, are of course invaluable.
 The height of our accomlishments can only be determined by the depths of our lows.
 I chose to believe that everything is to our benefit, the most difficult as well as the simple.
 I can see that my answer is more philosophical then step by step post by post. help me understand
teapot

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:36 pm

To take part in discussions one must sign up to the course first. The sign up  is a free contract of participation.

vivek and RishiRahul
Last edited by RishiRahul on Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:08 pm

Namaskaar asro ji,
The 'ji' is for 'Jagannath inside' so please dont mind it.

To see which of the two result will dominate apply this dictum - if the Graha is strong then the Beneficial result will dominate otherwise the malefic effect will be felt more.

RishiRahul and vivek.
Dear Vivek ji and Rishirahul ji,
Does this dictum goes irrespective of the fact that planet is natural malefic or benefic.i.e. even if jup is lord of 12th and 3rd house(lets take capricorn lagna) and placed in 12th house  thus getting strong it will give benefic effect bcoz it is stronger and natural benefic...

I hope i got you right..

Regards,
Raman

User avatar
RishiRahul
Astrology Reader
Posts: 7188
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
Contact:

Post by RishiRahul » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:21 pm

Raman Deep Singh wrote:
Namaskaar asro ji,
The 'ji' is for 'Jagannath inside' so please dont mind it.

To see which of the two result will dominate apply this dictum - if the Graha is strong then the Beneficial result will dominate otherwise the malefic effect will be felt more.

RishiRahul and vivek.
Dear Vivek ji and Rishirahul ji,
Does this dictum goes irrespective of the fact that planet is natural malefic or benefic.i.e. even if jup is lord of 12th and 3rd house(lets take capricorn lagna) and placed in 12th house  thus getting strong it will give benefic effect bcoz it is stronger and natural benefic...

I hope i got you right..

Regards,
Raman


Namashkaar Ramanji,

The example given earlier was about Mars, a natural benefic and a functional benefic.

Let us take Jupiter as 3rd. and 12 lord for Capricorn Lagna and placed in the 12th. as you said. It is a natural benefic and a functional malefic here.

Jupiter as 3rd. lord in the 12th. in own house would give positive impetus to the 3rd. house significations, being in own house, and more so as the 12th. is the 10(karmasthana) to the 3rd.

The own house factor is gainful here.

Jupiter as 12. lord in the 12th. is also good for the 12th. house.

Therefore, if it was not placed in own house the results would have been more difficult; which means.

So why do you not attempt to answer your own question now? While we await your reply.


vivek and RishiRahul

Raman Deep Singh
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:23 am

Post by Raman Deep Singh » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:40 am

RishiRahul wrote:
Raman Deep Singh wrote:
Namaskaar asro ji,
The 'ji' is for 'Jagannath inside' so please dont mind it.

To see which of the two result will dominate apply this dictum - if the Graha is strong then the Beneficial result will dominate otherwise the malefic effect will be felt more.

RishiRahul and vivek.
Dear Vivek ji and Rishirahul ji,
Does this dictum goes irrespective of the fact that planet is natural malefic or benefic.i.e. even if jup is lord of 12th and 3rd house(lets take capricorn lagna) and placed in 12th house  thus getting strong it will give benefic effect bcoz it is stronger and natural benefic...

I hope i got you right..

Regards,
Raman


Namashkaar Ramanji,

The example given earlier was about Mars, a natural benefic and a functional benefic.

Let us take Jupiter as 3rd. and 12 lord for Capricorn Lagna and placed in the 12th. as you said. It is a natural benefic and a functional malefic here.

Jupiter as 3rd. lord in the 12th. in own house would give positive impetus to the 3rd. house significations, being in own house, and more so as the 12th. is the 10(karmasthana) to the 3rd.

The own house factor is gainful here.

Jupiter as 12. lord in the 12th. is also good for the 12th. house.

Therefore, if it was not placed in own house the results would have been more difficult; which means.

So why do you not attempt to answer your own question now? While we await your reply.


vivek and RishiRahul
Thank you rishirahul ji and Vivek ji for replying.

Now if jup is not in its own house or friendly house and is in lagna for capricon lagna thus is deb. In this case jup should be more related to 3rd and 12 house's malefic effects..

The native with capricor lagna and jup in lagan i.e. deb jup.Since jup is in 11th house from 3rd house(which also happens to be an upachaya sthan) and is deb. thus native should have to work harder and get less gain out of it.Will also loose money or have loss coz of his brother esp younger if any but there z also posibility that native wont be having a younger brother.. Also jup is i 2nd house from 12th house thus peson will less accumalatin of money and may also loose money from foreign dealing.He shudnt be geting a good night sleep and wont feel good when he is at home,thus we can say he wont be getting a good night sleep when being at home...In both lordship we see that placement of jup in lagna gets  some how(directly or indirectly) related to money..
1.lagna is 11th house(labha sthan) from 3rd house
2.lagna is 2nd house(house of accumalated wealth and family) from 12th house.

Thus for sure he wil have money lose coz of this combination.

Please let me know how far this can be right. :-)

Regards,
Raman

Post Reply

Return to “Learn Vedic Astrology”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests