Payewacker's Tarot - How much do you want to learn?

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EnglandsRose
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Post by EnglandsRose » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:45 am

cedars wrote:Welcome to the site Englandsrose.... It is refreshing to see 'new blood' who is as interested as we are.

I agree with your comments that the more we delve into these things - with all the -ism words that you have mentioned - the more we get lost in the haystack...... but towards the end if something stays in our system as a piece of knowledge, then so be it.
Personally, I do not believe that such knowledge is needed to read the cards, but to see the background of the symbolism and the people who have given us these cards and their background into free masonry and the likes (I was one myself at some stage in my life) makes it all the more interesting.

But, if we try to find some far fetched One single meaning in all these, I think we may lose our purpose - whatever that purpose may be. For me, personally, the tarot represents a set of stories pertaining to the ordinary human life, regardless of its symbolism. For one second, let us assume if A.E. WAITE had a Hindu background, or if he belong to a different group than Free Masonry...... I wonder what the symbolism of tarot would have been like?

Enjoy your stay and please do pass on your knowledge to the threads..
Hi Cedars,

Thanks for the lovely welcome!  :smt003

I wouldn't disagree for one second that tarot pertains to 'ordinary' human life. I guess what I feel (and blunder when trying to explain) is that whatever it is that all the symbolism means, is the crux of ordinary human life and the cog of the wheel. It's no more important than any one of us, because it's part of every one of us.

I see so many ties between different philosophies, I do hold a bit of a candle for the theory that many originate from the same message, just have been adapted and deviated over time, coded to simplify but ultimately complicating. I could be wrong (it does happen!  :smt017 ) but I like hypothesising all the same as I feel it all provides colour to the canvas of human life. x

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Payewacker
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Post by Payewacker » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:03 pm

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Englandsrose,

If we look at the "Tarot" designed by AE Waite and subsequently, Crowley. We find a great many influencing factors. But the main influence will still remain Mason, and Hermiticism. Also, a very strong link to the Sola Busca Tarot. Where can we see, but one example; In the Sola Busca, the Knight of Cups has wings. In the Thoth deck, the Knight of Cups has wings. The RW, displays wings, but only on the helmet, holding the Cup. On the Sola Busca, the Cup is far bigger, a sandy colour, and stands on the ground, beside the Knight. The Sola Busca is the first complete Tarot deck and was designed in the 1500's. We can therefor readily accept that RW is the "leading" deck. Most others are mere derivatives and personal impressions of the original "source".  

If you go back in history, we can see that at a stage the Knights Templar were "guardians" of the Mason order. Then because of the increasing influence of the Freemasons, they were seen as "enemies" and the Masons murdered and persecuted.

But in the sense of religious groupings, most stemmed from "Gnosticism", this had an influence on most religions, and also container many religious teachings. We look at Dionyssus, Pythagoras, Zoroaster, etc. In this, we see an active influence from the "centre" outward.

This stemmed from the "Persian" empire, long before the Christian faith was even considered. In fact the classification, and design of the different orders of Angels and placement within the Zodiac is attributed to Zoroaster and Dionyssus. All the "Holy-days" in the Christian faith was adopted from the "Heathen" holy days. This was done to attract and convert as many as possible to the Christian faith.

It would be an interesting angle or theoretical base, when you study Zacharia Sichen's theories.

Not wanting to divert to far from the main subject, we need to consider where all of this originated! And for all practical reasons-Hermiticism! What is this, look at card number nine in the Major Arcanum, the Hermit. Which of the virtues does he represent, Prudence, temperance, faith, etc. Consider this?

Blessed be.

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EnglandsRose
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Post by EnglandsRose » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:47 pm

Hey Payewacker  :smt003

I could talk forever and a day about all the different things I think have some connection and ponder on what they truly mean! We will have to have a chat sometime about it, you seem to have a similar (albeit more in depth!) background to me. :smt004

As for the Hermit, for me it symbolises relying on your own spiritual wisdom (intuition, if you will) and removing yourself from material distractions to find the true meaning of being whole as an entity.

As far as symbolism goes, I've often wondered whether his golden staff (the only colour on the figure) was 3 degrees from the perpendicular, but couldn't be arsed to get the protractor out to test the theory! There's also the point of him having his way illuminated by a hexagonal lamp (enclosing a 6 pointed star?)... is this a wise old man that has found his spiritual fulfilment and now lights the beacon for others to find their way there? (a bit like the star of Bethlehem!)

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Payewacker
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Post by Payewacker » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:05 am

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Hi,

The first thing I want to point out to you is the STAR in the lamp. This star also predominantly features on the flag of Israel. This star is not the star of Bethlehem, but the star of David, which links to Judaism. It consist of two triangles in opposing directions. It implies the theory of "As above, so below" This has a direct link to the Magician in the way his arms are stretched out, and the similarity to Aleph, Yod-Vav-Yod. This can be explained as God, being far yet near and Man being near yet far. Vav, is six, the Lovers, of which it denotes the day, God created man---6---.

My referance to the Hermit, was purely in line with the teachings of Hermiticism. You described the qualities involved with this Major Arcanum card. Also consider that the Hermit occupies number 9, which is the number for completion. Consider that the star of David is contained within the hexagonal lamp. Can we then assume that the needed knowledge and spiritual enlightenment is a Judaic and Kaballistic point of view? Let us have a look at the numeric attributions to the Major Arcanum. They are all based on Kaballistic doctrine, which does not form part of the Christian faith at all!

Blessed be

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Payewacker
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Post by Payewacker » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:33 pm

To follow the discussions contained in this thread, go to this link;
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Hi Guys.

This has become a daunting task to do, but, we all have to learn, so we have the first bit of info on the Aleph-Beth, and how it works.

I managed to do the archetypal side of the Kaballah, linking it to the Major Arcanum. But we have to either say our Tarot masters has the cat by the B+++s or I need to change my thought pattern.

I thought this will be a 3 hour task, My, my, was I mistaken!!! We haven't even scratched the outer layer, we are still groping air! Wait till we get to Hyat and a multi dimensional universe! Whao!!!!

Who is good in algebra??? or perhaps advanced mathematics?

Blessed be.
Do as you want, Harm none!

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Cascade of Light
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Post by Cascade of Light » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:15 pm

Dear Payewacker, Your posts have a very defensive stance, you do not allow much room for other's beliefs or ideas. You make this an onerous task instead of a fun one. You have taken a dominant idea then you seem to perpetuate that idea as fact throughout all your posts, have you ever taken a moment to actually stop and think why? You write as if your words are the only truth, and facts, when several could be successfully disputed, and others have no firm base. What about the other decks and the older histories of tarot? Please do not stress that we all need to be tarot scholars, please do not make this so much hard work for yourself, take it easy and enjoy studying.

Cassie x
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x

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Post by Cascade of Light » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:20 pm

EnglandsRose wrote:Hi everyone,

One consistent factor for me, however, is that tarot cards do seem to act as an indicator for the story of someone's life.
Hi, welcome to the board :)
You are right, whilst the Majors depict human archetypes the Minors are a record of some of the most famous stories. Read through the suit and see if you can guess which :)

Cassie x
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x

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Payewacker
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Post by Payewacker » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:47 pm

Hi Cassie.

Please don't think my views or theories are the only view I take when researching any topic. Before info goes onto my postings, rest assured it has been investigated, questioned, reassessed, turned inside out, etc.

We all know how rich and colorful the History of Tarot is, but in the same way, we should consider where we get our "School of thought" from, or which is the leading theory and it's influence on the decks designed after the leader! Chances are that 99% of all the new decks, basically boils down to the interpritations of the RW.

To master and understand is to discuss and evaluate! On many menial subjects covered we don't even have responses or forthcoming discussions. This does not mean there is no interest, but it also leaves a gap where ideas can be interchanged or different views may be shared!

I would've hoped you get involved long-ago already!

Blessed be
Do as you want, Harm none!

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Cascade of Light
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Post by Cascade of Light » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:19 pm

Payewacker wrote:Hi Cassie.

Please don't think my views or theories are the only view I take when researching any topic. Before info goes onto my postings, rest assured it has been investigated, questioned, reassessed, turned inside out, etc.
But your posts do not reflect that? The seem to all be authoritative and worded as facts when I, for one do not agree with a lot of them, but they do not feel open to debate.

I would've hoped you get involved long-ago already!

Blessed be
I read all the posts and have recently had to catch up fast lol, but I find it hard to respond to many of these posts because I really do not know where to start to put over a different view or contrasting idea.

Cassie x
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x

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EnglandsRose
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Post by EnglandsRose » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:54 pm

Cascade of Light wrote:
EnglandsRose wrote:Hi everyone,

One consistent factor for me, however, is that tarot cards do seem to act as an indicator for the story of someone's life.
Hi, welcome to the board :)
You are right, whilst the Majors depict human archetypes the Minors are a record of some of the most famous stories. Read through the suit and see if you can guess which :)

Cassie x
Hi Cassie, and thanks for the welcome!  :smt003 x

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Payewacker
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Post by Payewacker » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:30 pm

Hi Cassie,

I'm absolutely open to debate on any topic.

To start, yes where? The first, which comes to mind is what you should consider and let's have a discussion about it!! That is what MB used to be like!

Take one example, when Crowley did his deck, he thought it will be "six" months. Shame!!!! It took five years! Then we find that some cards, associations and interpretations were changed up to eight times (which is the true one?). If you browse a bit, you will see that we have two differing images, and this is only the Fool! Even the coloring is different.
Don't think that this did not happen, before. The RW has a few variations, done by PC Smith and AE Waite, here we also find that the colors do not correspond!

I don't know if you have a copy of "The Pictorial key to the Tarot" by AE Waite. It's an Adobe doc. just look for it on the internet.

I want to bring to your attention the "Secret Doctrine". This has to do with Freemasonry and Hermitisicm-(birthed in Alexandria-Egypt). Then, once you have studied these principals, as outlined, you may see that our "doctrine" today is not only derived from one set of cards, one set of interpretations, and perhaps birthed in Egypt, therefore the possible link to the Kabbalah?, however, this is totally open to discussion.

No single Tarotist will agree on this, so, truly, it may be a very good point of discussion to start with, what do you think?

When we start looking back into the History of Tarot. It was a set of "playing cards" which eventuated to become Icons or "paintings" hung on walls! The very first complete Tarot decks, as we know it, was the Sola Busca, upon which the RW and A. Crowley based their designs. Evidently Crowley did his Thoth deck, later than Waite. This does not mean, he merely copied from Waite, not at all. The book of Thoth, is referred to by Waite, a few times. And then we have all the other's, Alliette, Brown and other"Alchemical and Hermitic Scholars" When you refer to the "Myths" explained by the suit cards, we may find it in the Sola Busca Tarot.

Another interesting point in the Sola Busca, is the Numbering of the Court Cards! The numbering continous from ten, going eleven, Page (1+1=2), twelve, Knight (1+2=3), thirteen, Queen (1+3=4) fourteen, King (1+4=5). When we look at particularly the Kings, we find it being number five, being the Hierophant in the Majors. Consider, that even a King, will bend his knee before God. Does the Hierophant now control the Kings? We find a great many Kingdoms being directed primarily by the "religious order"? What then is the influence of a King, and the inherent impact we may find, by a showing of the Hierophant?

The numeric attributions is to a large extend adopted from Pythagoras and his Tetractus. (BTW, I wrote the first article to be hosted on Yahoo no 1, in this regard, years ago), then we have the followers!  Therefore each number has a multiple universe. "As Above, so below"

Now, who are we going to believe? or is the "Tarot of the Bohemians" the answer. What about the Tarrochi Siciliano, which has a "beggar" as a card, which may also be "The Devil"  Then we find here "Fortitude", which may be "Temperance" or "Strength".  

Therefore, don't consider my theories as "principal" or fact. I derive all from our Tarot-masters, but may rephrase or try to interpret it as how it may have a connotation to what we see and perceive as the way in which Tarot is used?

What I do know, is that you do not consider Tarot as a Divinatory System, by which the Future may be foretold. You indicated that the Majors is but Archaic explanations of more complex structures.

Due to the formation and direction of the Hebrew alphabet, you may find that the archaic, is limited to a number of cards, where we find a lead-on, into Existential, and ultimately Cosmic. This is displayed by the numeric values, and it's finals. This is an interesting subject to be discussed. Which cards in the Major Arcanum, can we see as archaic, existential or cosmic?


Why don't you start this thread, and let us have a live debate about this subject. I've asked a few questions. Why can't it be discussed and torn apart, making for an informative exercise!

:smt008

Blessed be.
Do as you want, Harm none!

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pirbid
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Post by pirbid » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:00 pm

:) Hi, Cassie, glad you joined the scholarly thread.

I truly think PW is open to debate, it's just the way he expresses himself that makes him come across as a little overbearing (it could also be the Leo in him  :) ). He has avowed many times that he is not always sure about his theories, and I guess that is why he exposes them to debate on this threads. Just post your own and ask him anything you are not clear about concerning his. He doesn't mind a good 'beating' once in a while  :smt003

I tend to steer towards those subjects that I find more interesting and leave the most obscure ones to those who can follow. But I think the main point is to have the forum come to life a little, so whatever you do, try to enjoy yourself.

Hugs both to you and our new friend EnglandsRose  :smt002
Sunshine from the islands of eternal spring ;)

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cedars
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Post by cedars » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:08 pm

I agree with Pirbid here..

I respect PW's passion in the tarot and, as Pirbid said, I read what I can absorb and leave the rest to enter my bank of knowledge. If it does not make sense to me, I just leave it in the back of my mind.

I also believe that some of us look at the tarot only as a divination tool; that is fine and nothing wrong with it.

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Post by Cascade of Light » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:54 pm

You know what? I just feel tired at the though of responding to all the points raised in your post. lol. :) Crowley was a bit of an off the wall mad magician! His deck should actually be considered a 'modern' deck, being first completely printed in 1969? The Book of Thoth was a book, not a deck and was printed much earlier. Crowley did not actually even finish the deck it was finished posthumously.  Personally I do not like many of the ideas and dictations of Crowley, I much prefer the logical and striaght thinking Waite. I am lucky, I have read a lot of his work.
Do you really believe that the origins of Tarot was playing cards? Do you not see it as a magical way of protecting occult knowledge?

Cassie :)
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x

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cedars
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Post by cedars » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:16 pm

Well, I will agree with you on that one Cassie.
I have not read Crowley..... if anything but vaguely..... but I have looked at his deck and it has not made any sense to me.
Whatever A.E.Waite's background, Free Mason, Enslaved Mason, Egyptian or whatever else.....:) I do resonate with the RW and the story it tells rather than the rather abstract Thoth thing.

Sorry you Thoth lovers out there.....

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