Payewacker's Tarot - The Celtic Cross and how to read it!!

[Payewacker]

Hi Rhuto,

We have a lot of aspiring readers who may want to use the CC. I have done a tutorial and posted it a few times already.

We allknow that the Celtic Cross are daunting for beginners. But once properly understood, it's very easy and gives loads of info!!!
All the Links are:

Celtic Cross, and how to read it:
I have edited this doc;

Follow this link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IL- ... aWAM4/edit

MB Thread:
http://mysticboard.org/vi ... 988#264988


Blessed be.

[Payewacker]

Is there anyone, who may have a comment?

[pirbid]

Yep, I do. Sorry, PW, I haven't been around too much lately because of some issues at work, but I appreciate your debates, you know it.

Ok, to begin with, I missed your posting the actual layout of the cards. Many of us aren't familiar with the CC and, even those of us who are and use it frequently, may be using slight variations of it. It is such an old and popular spread that there are many versions, not only in layout but in the meaning of each position.
For example, after reading your post carefully through, I concluded you lay the cards in the following order and positions:
                               
                                               10
                      3
                                                9
                      S
         5           1(2)      6             8
                                                 
                      4                         7

While I have always laid them in this order:

                                                         10
                       5
                                                          9
                      S (not always)
           4          1(2)                 6          8  

                       3                                 7

I also use the vertical and horizontal trios, but I usually see the vertical line as representing the person right now, with 5 being the thoughts or conscious intentions, 1 the heart or emotions and 3 the unconscious impulse. 3 is usually older and stronger, having been ignored for a long time by the querent, and very often gives the key to the whole reading, since it may be the person's inner instincts fighting to get through.
The horizontal line represents the timing of events, with 4 being the recent past or how the person felt up till now, and 6 some event, meeting or influence in the near future. But it is card 2 -laid horizontally over card 1- that links this line for me, since I see 1 as the true self, often hidden from others, and 2 as the mask, or the way the person usually acts and shows his or herself to others. That is why these two cards are often very different or even opposing each other, unless the querent is quite self assured and balanced.

Then 7 I read as the querent's attitude concerning the present issue. As you say, we have the power to project our future, so this is a very important card. No good results can be obtained through a bad attitude. Sometimes card 9 illustrates the reason for a negative attitude.
Card 8 I read as the seeker's environment: friends, colleagues, family, lover. They can either help or hinder, and the querent can feel backed up or rejected in this situation.
Card 9, "hopes and fears" is always hard for beginners. Specially because I can usually read the same card as both the fears AND the hopes. We humans are such contradictory creatures that what we usually fear most is success and its possible consequences on our routine.
Card 10 is the possible outcome, but it is easy to draw a blank on this card. As you say, you can get a courtier, but it is hard to see a person as an outcome, unless the question was "will I finally be together with...?". Majors I usually interpret as something quite pivotal in the querent's life, but it is easy to draw a blank. Last time I read with the CC I got The Fool in this position, which I usually read as 'Jump blindly! Go for it!'... Only it wasn't a possible answer in this instance. When that happens, I usually draw one last card that should describe how the person will feel after this outcome.

I also use reversals. When first looking at the spread, if I see too many -never more than 50%- I get a feeling of blocked energy or obstacles, so I try to find during the actual reading if the person has been feeling poorly or overworked, or just plain uncomfortable with the situation.

I also pay attention to the Major/Minor ratio. The more Majors, the more important this issue is for the querent, specially when they come up as the unconscious level, the heart, hopes and fears, or the outcome.

I make a head count of the suits and how often each is represented. This gives you an indication of what the querent really has in mind. For example, if the question was about relationships and no cups or swords appear, but mainly clubs and/or pentacles, I conclude the person is really too busy with the practical side of life to give much thought to relationships, thus these could be on the downslide.
But I also pay attention to the suits that don't come up: a lack of pentacles may mean the person needs to get more practical in a hurry in order to get the best results. A lack of swords may mean being too impulsive, specially when clubs are all over the spread. If no clubs appear I might be inclined to worry about the person's level of energy and/or health, etc.

I also take into account if we get the same number in several suits -eg. 4 of Cups, 4 of Swords, etc-, which would be stressing the importance of solid foundations and/or obstacles; or a progression or regression of connecting numbers in the same suit -eg. 3, 4, 5, of swords-, which usually can tell a story by themselves.

I never thought about the direction in which the card people are looking, but I think it is an interesting aspect. I will try to remember next time.

Once the querent or I have shuffled, we make 3 piles with the left hand -or the non leading hand- and turn them over. I read these 3 cards as a first glimpse of the situation. Then we put them back down and together so they have a chance to come up in the reading. BTW, this is one reason I don't like significators much: I prefer all cards come up by themselves.

What I always do after going through the whole CC reading, whether the outcome was clear or not, is to get a different angle using the same cards. So I pick them up in the same order I laid them and lay them down in a row -keeping the reversals if there were any-, 1 to 10 or 11, depending on whether we drew a second outcome card or not, or if we used a significator or not -I tend to use them more with people who come for a first reading, so that they get familiar with the images and relax, since I let them pick their own significator from among all Court cards-.
Then I read them by connecting them by pairs from both extremes working towards the center: 1+10, 2+9, 3+8... If we have an uneven number of cards, usually card 6 ends up as the center of the question, an indication that coming events can change things for better or worse, so it is good to keep alert for them.

So, what do you all think? I hope it was useful to get different views on the same spread.

Hugs  :smt020

[cedars]

Yes, it is useful Pirbid, even though I don't like using the Celtic Cross for readings. I feel the CC has placements which I find a bit irrelevant, like position 7, 8 and 9.

I do like though positions 1 to 6. I like them because they show a short term and long term picture of past, present and future. But when it comes to positions 7, 8 and 9 I find these positions could be re-invented, re-phrased rather than the time old placements they have come to be known as:

7: Self attitude.
8: Others' position.
9: Hope and Fears. So, what is the big deal with this position? We all have hopes about a situation as much as we have fears about things.

Position 10, as well as position 3 and 6 all talk about some kind of an outcome, albeit in different time frames.  If position 3 is the short term - immediate - outcome and position 6 the medium-term future outcome, why do we need yet another form of outcome in position 10?

I have used the CC in the way PW has portrayed and I must admit within the 'rules' of the Celtic Cross, this is the one that I find the most 'workable'..... but I still believe positions 7 to 10 can be rephrased to make them more tangible to the querent.

Pirbid, I also agree with you there are different placements for the CC spread and that is the very reason why I was put off with the CC when I first started learning the Tarot cards.

Let's keep the comments coming in.

p.s. I don't do reversals intentionally, i.e. shuffling the cards in such a way to 'create' reversals. But if and when a reverse cards do come though, I will accept them and read as such.

[Payewacker]

Hi Pirbid,

We need to look at the way AE Waite designed his deck. The Rider Waite deck is virtually which every other deck is based on. The Celtic Cross is an age old spread, and is accepted as a spread giving the most information. We shouldn't discount any other spread, as these may also contain a lot of information, but, the reader should then be more professional to seek the right symbolism and interpret the cards correctly.

AE Waite was a Freemason, and as such the symbolism is based on a lot of Freemason theories. He was also a member of the Golden Dawn. Which unfortunately went into disgrace at some point of time.

The numbers attached to each card, is in fact gleaned from Pythagoras, who invented Numerology "so to speak". We also need to consider that the Rider-Waite deck is based on the Sola Busca Tarot, which is centuries old.

When looking at card four, we see a definite set of bounderies and being the foundation of any situation, circumstance or event!

Therefore, have a look at these theories the Freemason Society has:

Architecture
Symbol of the foundation of Free¬masonry which is a speculative science derived from an operative art. Operative Freemasons were principally concerned in the erection of edifices for public use: cathedrals, churches, monasteries, castles for the feudal lords, etc. Inasmuch as all these structures required a deep knowledge of many arts, architecture survives in Speculative Masonry as a symbol for the need of knowledge and skill in all important undertakings. The whole internal structure of Freemasonry's ritual is permeated with and built around matter!' of architecture and of building, not used for their original purposes, but for "the more noble and glorious purpose" of setting forth some principle of life, some philosophy, some aspect of character making. Buildings are the "documents in stone" of men, civilizations, even races, which have long perished from the earth. Freemasonry's use of architecture as a foundation symbol also has reference to a need for a study of history to round out the liberal education otherwise taught in the Fellowcraft degree. The five orders of architecture are "a flotsam which has been wafted to us down the stream of time from that remote period when Freemasonry was an organization of operative Masons" (Street). Mackey considered only the first three as symbols; other authorities believe that all five are included in the Winding Stair teachings to fix the attention of the initiate on the importance of architecture in general and solid building in particular, as components of a liberal education.

Cornerstone
Symbol of beginning; symbol of sacrifice. Cornerstones are laid in the North-east corner-Entered Apprentices stand in the Northeast corner of the lodge. The point mid¬way between the darkness of the North and the brilliance of the East was chosen by ancient builders as the point of beginning, a spot to mark a birth, a commencement of a new struc¬ture. Who stands in the darkness has no light; on whom falls the whole light of the brilliant East and its rising sun is not in darkness. Half way between, then, is a symbol of a beginning-the traveler has left the darkness and moved towards the light. Those who build have left the "dark¬ness" in which is no building, and progressed far enough towards "light" to lay a foundation stone. Early man believed that the spirits of the earth, the air, of nature, would destroy what they erected, unless a spiritual defender haunted the structure to defend it. As the gods were far stronger than men, what was sacrificed to them must be of the best. Hence arose the awful rite of "foundation sacrifice" in which human victims were walled up in the cornerstones, thrown bound into the hollowed foundation to die a miserable death of suffocation, or, more mercifully, be crushed to death by the stone laid on top of their bodies. Freemasons lay cornerstones and in the hollowed center put the book, the picture, the coin, the newspaper of the day, the remains of the ancient superstition that without a human sacrifice to provide a protective ghost to haunt the building it will fall.


Forty-seventh Problem of Euclid
Symbol of geometry; of exact science. Passed over with but a few words of ritual, it is Masonically most in¬teresting. It appears on the frontispiece of An¬derson's Constitutions, published in 1723; Street says it is the earliest example of a printed symbol of Freemasonry. It was apparently known to ancient mathematicians long before Pythagoras (Masonically credited as its discoverer) or Eu¬clid, who made of the properties of a right-angled triangle his forty-seventh problem. It is the root of all mathematics used to determine an unknown from two knowns. Given the distance of a moun¬tain and the angle of sight to its top, mathematics may determine its height. Tunnels are driven through mountains from both sides to meet ex¬actly by means of measurements made by the forty-seventh problem. Navigation of the seas depends upon it. In non-Euclidian language, a right angled triangle of 3 feet base and 4 feet height, has a line 5 feet long joining the free ends of the two legs. The square of 3 is 9; the square of 4 is 16; the sum of 9 and 16 is 25; the square root of 25 is 5. All right-angled triangles, regardless of the length of base and upright, follow this law; that the line joining the free ends (the hypotenuse) is the square root of the sum {)f the squares of the two sides. Therefore, if any two of the three are known, the third may be calculated. According to the ritual "it teaches Masons to he general lovers of the arts and sciences". This short description encompasses the study of geometry. The ritual is here not factual. Pythagoras was poor and could hardly have possessed a hecatomb (hundred head of cattle). He was a vegetarian, and reverenced animal life; he would not have killed one cow, let alone a hundred, to "celebrate" his discovery. He may have cried "Eureka", but could hardly have been "raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason," which did not take even an ancient and simple form until centuries after he died.


Geometry
(See Forty-seventh Problem.) "God is always geometrizing," said the ancient philos¬opher. In the Fellowcraft Degree, geometry is a symbol not only of mathematics but of the divine and moral significance of abstract truth.

Square
(See Great Lights.) Symbol of the Mas¬ter; of rectitude of life and conduct; of morality, truthfulness, honesty. So universal is the knowl¬edge of its meaning that the word has percolated into all strata of society. The "square man" is the honest man. To "act on the square" is to act honestly. In Freemasonry to "part upon the square" has its own symbolism. The square is a tool made of two members, pointing in different directions. Those directions are "right" with each other-a right angle, so called because the 90 degree angle is the only correct angle for stones which are to build a perpendicular and stable wall. When brethren "part upon the square," they leave each other in different direc¬tions, but in directions of which, if their desti¬nation be unknown, their rightness is known. Brethren part in the full knowledge that their courses until they meet again will be according to the angle of a square--right.

Triangle
Wherever expressed in Freemasonry, whether by reference to the number three, or the position of any three objects, the symbol is of Deity. (See Lesser Lights.) Throughout the Craft emphasis is put upon the number three; three Lights, greater and lesser; three steps on the Master's Carpet; three steps at the beginning of the Winding Stairs; three principal officers; three degrees; three due guards; etc., etc. The number three is but another way of expressing the idea of a triangle, earliest symbol for Deity, inasmuch as it is the simplest closed figure (signifying endlessness) which can be formed of straight lines. The emphasis upon three, or the triangle, is Freemasonry's symbol of Deity-being without beginning or ending.

Fourty-seventh Problem of Euclid
Symbol of geometry; of exact science. Passed over with but a few words of ritual, it is Masonically most in¬teresting. It appears on the frontispiece of An¬derson's Constitutions, published in 1723; Street says it is the earliest example of a printed symbol of Freemasonry. It was apparently known to ancient mathematicians long before Pythagoras (Masonically credited as its discoverer) or Eu¬clid, who made of the properties of a right-angled triangle his forty-seventh problem. It is the root of all mathematics used to determine an unknown from two knowns. Given the distance of a moun¬tain and the angle of sight to its top, mathematics may determine its height. Tunnels are driven through mountains from both sides to meet ex¬actly by means of measurements made by the forty-seventh problem. Navigation of the seas depends upon it. In non-Euclidian language, a right angled triangle of 3 feet base and 4 feet height, has a line 5 feet long joining the free ends of the two legs. The square of 3 is 9; the square of 4 is 16; the sum of 9 and 16 is 25; the square root of 25 is 5. All right-angled triangles, regardless of the length of base and upright, follow this law; that the line joining the free ends (the hypotenuse) is the square root of the sum {)f the squares of the two sides. Therefore, if any two of the three are known, the third may be calculated. According to the ritual "it teaches Masons to he general lovers of the arts and sciences". This short description encompasses the study of geometry. The ritual is here not factual. Pythagoras was poor and could hardly have possessed a hecatomb (hundred head of cattle). He was a vegetarian, and reverenced animal life; he would not have killed one cow, let alone a hundred, to "celebrate" his discovery. He may have cried "Eureka", but could hardly have been "raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason," which did not take even an ancient and simple form until centuries after he died.

Numbers
Freemasonry preserves some ancient superstitions and pseudo science in her use for and reverence of odd numbers and especially for 3, 5 and 7. Probably the most important number in Masonry is 3, since there is so much use for it. (See Triangle.) Of numerology in Masonry, Oliver Day Street said: "One of the most curious bodies of learning of the ancient world, many fragments of which are scattered throughout Masonry. It is exceedingly difficult for the modern mind to grasp what is meant by this so-called science, so highly speculative was it. It does not allude, as its name might seem to indicate" to any of the mathematical sciences, or anything akin to them. It was a moral science or philosophy, wherein numbers were given symbolical meaning and the letters of the alphabet were given numerical values; whence words were supposed to have certain occult significations according to the sums or multiples of the numerical equivalents of its letters. The elaboration of this idea was productive of the Hebrew Kabala. Pythagoras is reputed to have introduced this school among the Greeks and according to Aristotle he taught that 'Number is the principle of all things and that the organization of the Universe is an harmonic system of numerical ratios.' "

Oblong Square
Symbol of the "form of a lodge" which in turn is a symbol of the known world of the ancients-Spain in the west, Asia Minor in the east, lines east and west a few miles north and south of the Mediterranean. "Oblong square" has been objected to by purists as a contradiction in terms; that an oblong is a rectangle with un¬equal sides and perpendiculars while a square is a rectangle with equal sides and perpendiculars. The word "square" did not originally denote a figure with four equal sides, but any figure which had right angles at all four corners. Later "square" came to mean not only "right angled," but a figure inclosed by four equal length lines, any adjoining two of which formed a right angle. "Oblong square," then, meant anciently what "ob¬long" means today.

Now, numbers as associated by any author, may not be the way in which it was supposed to be.

Four is the foundation and therefore should always be at the bottom of a spread. Look closely, you will see that four and seven is absolutely related, because the foundation was or has been created by the querant and can not be altered!

Incidently, the Thoh deck, is also based on the RW, due to the influence of AE Waite on Alaister Crowley!

The most interesting, is that so many authors or designers of Tarot, is trying to re-invent the wheel, and in fact may make a fool of themselves! Tarot is not a competition between readers, authors or the likes, it's a personal experience, whith which, common knowledge and intuition plays a very big role.

To study the derivatives, is like Alice in Wonderland! No clear perception is available. Sorry to say this, but unfortunately it's the truth.

Blessed be.

[Payewacker]

All the Links are:

Celtic Cross, and how to read it:
I have edited this doc;

Follow this link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IL- ... aWAM4/edit

MB Thread:
http://mysticboard.org/vi ... 988#264988

Hi Cedars,

MMMMMMMM, Card nine. Nine is the number of completion, and is not neccesarily what the querant is afraid of, or hope to happen. It's a number of "completion" rather than "attainment" in card ten. When we look at this card, we can find what may happen, and that which the querant, may receive. Either by his/her conduct or "shit happens" scenario!

However, the number 10 in itself does not exist. It's an expansion of 1. Regarding this, we can also consider that ten may be a number of "over-kill"

In the transliterated Kaballah, we find that each number also have a specific biological process. 1-Amoeba, etc. Therefore we also see, that the Fool
is Zero, and can be placed anywhere. Zero is also a number that do not exist, but a mindframe only, for us, to describe nothing!

Blessed be.

[Payewacker]

Hi Cedars,

I think my above posting was very vague and not really to the point.

When looking at cards 7,8,9 and 10. There is a significant meaning to them. we need to consider the numbers as well. what do we find in all the sevens, eights and so on.

When looking at card seven, the first question we look at, is the person, but link to the Chariot, what then is the implication in that. Is it perhaps describing the "person" and his/her forward motion on the mundane level. Looking at all the sevens, what do we find?

They all describe some physical action of perhaps "engaging in and receiving" what has been a condition of active "combat" or overcoming some obstacle or enemy.

In the seven of Cups, we see a person looking at his "dreams". Here we see him having to conquer his dreams and ideals, to focus on a single area in order to attain completion?

In the seven of Swords, we see a person needing to employ his "bad" side to gain intel about the enemy. Going into the enemy camp and be a spy, to by this knowledge "know your enemy" and conquer on their own turf?

In Wands, we see a person standing on a bit of a rise, indicating that he has the knowledge or skills already. The wands directed at him, is at a lower level. This insinuate that he is being challenged, but with his knowledge and skill will be the victor.

With Pentacles, we look at a farmer contemplating his harvest. This give us an idea that he was succesfull against the odds of the natural phases. But we find a division in this card. Six of Pentacles. Ace of Pentacles. The "tool" being leaned on, is it a wand or a spade? In considering this, you sow the seed at the right time, to acheive your success?

Looking at the Chariot. This card don't only speak about overpowering an enemy, but also pose a question, how do you reconcile and overcome the opposing forces within yourself? Then as I indicated before, look at the shoulder pads, moons in differing phases. Once again, in the right hand we find a "wand"? In the Chariot we see definite dualities, linked to other major Arcanum cards.

If we then look at house seven, what is the true significance of this card?

Blessed be.

[cedars]

I understand what you're saying PW, and perhaps that would be apt and to the point if the cards that fell on those positions were a 7, 8, 9 and 10 - a chance would be a fine thing, eh?

To me 7 and 9 indicate similar things: my attitude on my situation and if I have a bad attitude no good results will come out says position 7. But position 9 does not say much different to position to 7.
As for position 8 - do I really care what others think about my situation? I know...... I know..... others may influence my situation..... but there is too much of what one thinks about the situation rather than what one should do.

As for position 10 the OUTCOME... How different is that from position 3 and 6?  We have, strictly speaking, three outcome placements to the Celtic Cross.  This is why I find the CC too much of a repetitive bla bla bla......

However, full credit to you PW, whenever I have done the CC or happen to do in the future, I get inspired with your explanation  and the way you have presented the spread in your previous threads.  

Blessings to you my friend.

[pirbid]

Ok, here I am gain.
As I was saying, I was intrigued by the myriad variations in CC placements. One thing I have noticed is that the positions usually hold more or less the same meaning (although I have found up to seven or eight slightly different versions of meanings for each position!) so that what really changes more is the ORDER in which people lay them. Let's see if I can clarify this bit. As I said in another post, you lay the the first 6 cards in the order on the left and I on the right, so that 3 of the 6 cards are in different positions:

              3                                         5

     5      1(2)    6                        4     1(2)    6

              4                                         3

However, I believe the meanings assigned to each position are very similar. For instance, if we exchange the numbers for their meanings, we both would get something like:

                                          Conscious thought


                                           Personal potential
Previous steps                         Present feelings                 Near future
Recent events                 (Incoherences, obstacles)         What happens next


                                                The Base,
                                        Important past influence
                                           

See what I mean? You still get a timeline from left to right, recent past to near future.
And you still have your time-line from past influences on the base to the present chain of thinking on top, once the main personality traits in the present have been balanced.
I also like to see the vertical line as going from residues of the past that got stuck in the unconscious and make us react without knowing the reason why... towards our conscious motives on the top... passing through the filters of our personality traits, potential and capacities... which are also influenced by irrational impulse, intuition, emotion... whether we are aware of them or not.

Now, one very interesting thing you mentioned, which might explain the varying position meanings, is that they should be based on number meanings from 1 to 10, as taken from the Minor Arcana.
Now, how many readers take those into account? Most just memorize card meanings and then try to link them as well as possible, at least I did. That's why I am trying to find a better working method that leaves less to chance or understanding, specially since I can't rely on any psychic abilities.
So I intend to apply these 1 to 10 meanings to the CC path, as you suggest, PW. But, just to make sure, I understand you also take into account the meanings of Majors 1 to 9, at least (since 10 is 1, the Magician). My question is: do Majors from 10 to 21 play any role in positions meanings for the CC?

While you take your time to answer, I will gather the definitions I can reach for numbers 1 to 10 in Minor Arcana and see how they relate to Majors 1 to 9 (or 0+1= Fool+Magician). Because, if I can see the links clearly, it will help me understand the "why" of your order of placement. I will post my results here as soon as I can.

Cheers!  :smt020

[pirbid]

Hello again. Are we all ready to go on a Fool's journey through each step of the Celtic Cross?

This 'study' is specially dedicated to you, Cedars, hoping you will understand some of the contradictions or repetitions you find in its positions. You will see that, being such an old spread, different meanings for each position have been accumulating for years (some even contradictory), and with little regard to their connection with number meanings or Majors.

Let's begin with position 1. It is usually laid right on top of the significator (although I prefer to keep the significator in sight on top of the spread if I am using one, otherwise I don't see the point: we tend to forget what we don't see). The position's meanings should relate to those of the Magician and the Aces, if I understood correctly, so let's go over them:

1- The Magician: archetype of the active, masculine principle - the ultimate achiever. He symbolizes the power to tap universal forces and use them for creative purposes. Not afraid to act, he knows what he intends to do and why. He doesn't hesitate because he understands his situation exactly. The Magician can focus with single-minded determination. He believes in himself. This card is a signal to act and act now, provided you understand exactly what you want and are committed to getting it.

The Aces: potential growth, desire for beginning new things, beginnings, will, gifts of life, irruption of energy, surprise, favorable disposition, strength.

Now let's look at all the different meanings of position 1 in the CC gathered through the years: lost among them we will find those we have always used but, which is the 'most correct' one?
   * HEART OF THE MATTER: central issue, major concern, basic worry or upset, primary focus, focal point, fundamental problem
   * PRESENT ENVIRONMENT (OUTER):  surrounding circumstances, immediate problem at hand, what's going on around you, what you're dealing with, external factors
   * PRESENT ENVIRONMENT (INNER): internal factors, how you feel about the situation, key personal quality, basic state of mind, emotional state, what's going on inside of you
   * PRIMARY FACTOR:  major influence, dominant characteristic, outstanding feature, most important element, most striking quality

Now, for those of us whose memories work better in images (they give more info in less space), having in mind both the Magician and the Aces when reading this position of the CC will give us a sort of feeling, rather than words.
Now, the feeling I mostly get when looking at those 5 cards put together is that of POTENTIAL, or, as PW said, primary energies not yet realized.
So, from the four categories of meanings, I would rule out those regarding outer environment, since this has a more internal feeling. The other 3 categories basically invite you to focus on one element of all those that make up the seeker's potential or primary energy.
All in all, I guess I agree with most definitions included as Primary Factor.

Input, please?  :)

[cedars]

Pirbid

This is how I first started: the way Joan Bunning interprets the CC spread.
She has the following four possible descriptions for position One, as you have stated in your thread above.

HEART OF THE MATTER
PRESENT ENVIRONMENT (OUTER)
PRESENT ENVIRONMENT (INNER)
PRIMARY FACTOR.

And she calls positions 1 and 2 - THE CENTRAL DYNAMICS.

Sometimes these placement names to me sound out of touch with reality.... for example: Present Environment (Outer) and all the others.... You should not have to be an abstract literally words analyser in order to understand what the hell a placement title means in order to give a reading.

Then there is another one which says for position one: Basis of Current State. The foundation that moulded your past or created the present. (This is by one Nancy Garen)


Then we have another school which just says for position One: PRESENT INFLUENCES.

Which one would you prefer to work with?  The four above or just one simple explanation.

I do not blindly accept because something is old, it has got to be better or the best.

I agree with you my dear Pirbid, that some of these placement names are in fact contradictory to one another. One day I will post my own diagram of the Celtic Cross which is a combination of all these different so-called definitions, but simplified for me the way I do my readings with the CC.

But let us continue this discussion.

[pirbid]

While you think on position 1, I will gather the info I have on number 2 and see if I can reach a conclusion as easily as I managed on 1 (I even surprised myself this time  :smt003 ).

The key to this position should be found in the meanings for the High Priestess and the twos in the Minor Arcana.
BTW, I am not getting my meanings from this board, so they could vary slightly. Mine I have gathered and selected among all the books I have read through the years and the selection is basically what resonates better with me, although I try to keep as ample a lookout as possible.

2- The High Priestess: guardian of the unconscious, the feminine principle that balances the masculine force of the Magician, the mysterious unknown that women often represent.
In readings, she poses a challenge to you to go deeper, look beyond the obvious, surface situation to what is hidden and obscure.
Recall the vastness of your potential and remember the unlimited possibilities you hold within yourself.
She can represent a time of waiting and allowing. It is not always necessary to act to achieve your goals.

Twos: consider options, make choices, affirm, establish, encounter, polarity.

Position meanings:
   * OPPOSING FACTOR: "that which is crossing you", source of resistance, balancing tendency, moderating influence, rival or subversive agent
   * FACTOR FOR CHANGE: unpredictable element, new consideration, unbalancing force, surprise
   * SECONDARY FACTOR: tangential concern, another source of information, side issue, subordinate problem, minor factor
   * REINFORCING FACTOR: supporting feature, additional emphasis, cooperating person, extra attraction, magnifying force, related issue

Placement:
To place card 2 correctly, rotate the card 90 degrees clockwise and lay it on top of card 1. Card 2 is reversed if the top of the card's image is on the left after placement.

Ok, now I try to picture in my mind all 5 cards and get their global feeling. The twos give me images of duality (naturally enough, I suppose), balancing options (specially Swords and Pents). They are mostly standing still, too. I guess it is harder to make decisions on the run! So the meaning of the Priestess becomes clear, at least the part about calmly considering.

So probably the meanings found in Opposing Factor are closer to the mark, specially those within oneself. But none of them get as close as PW's meanings for this position. Of course, he knew the right links, so... no fair! LOL

Cards 1 and 2, crossed, form a sort of inner circle within a bigger one formed by cards 3 to 6, so it looks like the 'heart' of the spread, or rather, the inner core of the querent. At least that is the image I get, and I tend to trust visual impact when interpreting a reading, so I find it hard to see any of those cards as external influences.

Any comments on this, or are you all making up your wish-lists for the coming year?  :smt111

[pirbid]

Pirbid

Sometimes these placement names to me sound out of touch with reality.... for example: Present Environment (Outer) and all the others.... You should not have to be an abstract literally words analyser in order to understand what the hell a placement title means in order to give a reading.

You are right on the mark, that is why I prefer to rely ultimately on images, since they don't beat around the bush as much as some hollow sounding expressions.

One day I will post my own diagram of the Celtic Cross which is a combination of all these different so-called definitions, but simplified for me the way I do my readings with the CC.

I am holding you to that promise!  :smt002

[cedars]

To place card 2 correctly, rotate the card 90 degrees clockwise and lay it on top of card 1. Card 2 is reversed if the top of the card's image is on the left after placement.

Hmmmmm..... I do it the opposite Pirbid. I lay it down counter clockwise and the top of the card is on the left..

am holding you to that promise!  

I promise!

[cedars]

Rest assured, you can remove your own account and email address.....

Do us that favour, please.