THE NUMBERING AND ASSOCIATIONS OF THE MAJOR ARCANUM

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:08 pm

HI GUYS,

We have been upping and downing with the Zodiac and it’s associations. The Haindl deck has a lot of information on it, but it’s really hidden in the imagery. I don’t know I-Ching at all, but his minor Arcanum has the I-Ching symbols, The Major has the Rune and the Hebrew text for that particular card. But, now we get to the numbering of the cards vs the Hebrew Aleph-Beth. The Fool is assigned Aleph or number 1 in the Hebrew text, The Magician is number 2. When we now get to ten which is supposed to be Yod, we find the hermit--9 enjoying the 10—Yod association.

I did the research in the transliterated Kaballah, zero is an extension of one, only found after ten. Zero as such does not exist. This is also seen in Sanskrit.

I've hosted these tables on Google docs, So follow the link in the next posting.

Blessed be

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:58 pm

Hi Guys,

Now let me tell you all something, i've now been from Cape Town to Cairo with this +*&+^)(* posting and the link.

I started this afternoon

, while doing  :smt024 , compiling this lot. So very

, i started to try and get this doc on here, disaster, everything is a *&^%$ mix-up and i ended up

. Then i tried to put my best foot forward

, thought let me do the google doc hosting thing. At first it saved only a portion of my "manuscript" and got me to  :smt093 stage. The system merely went like  :smt019 . so then I did  :smt069 , and still no luck and just got me totally

. I eventually managed to get it on, but still feel

.

I think if Mysticboard must pay me to get anything on here, they'll be broke and me a millionaire. So if you went to the previous link, scrap it, follow this one.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... cWM1&hl=en

Let me just give you my wonderfull greeting.

Blessed be

cedars · Post by **cedars** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:00 am

Hi Payewacker,

I have read with interest your posting above.
Several questions come to mind, but the first and foremost: where or how does the Hebrew alphabet (and indeed Arabic) come into tarot? I can relate to most of the letters of the alphabet you cited with my knowledge of the Arabic language (they are very similar and some are the same!) but why? Why Hebrew?

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:10 pm

Hi Cedars,

Interesting question, fortunately I have an answer.

The standard deck has 78 cards of wich 22 major and 56 minor Arcanum. The 22 Major cards are associated with the 22 Hebrew letters and also with the 22 paths on the tree of life. The Minor Arcanum, including the Court cards are divided into four sets of fourteen, which denotes the modern western elements, the four letters of the Tetragrammaton and the four worlds of qabalah.

Does it make sense to you?

Blessed be

cedars · Post by **cedars** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:27 am

Very interesting.
Now, at the risk of digressing from the main topic, I went and did some reading about qaballah (which to me sounds a very Arabic word) and I got a bit lost in it.

Yes, your explanation did make sense to me and I am wondering whether this is something AE Waite derived from his Freemasonry background or whether, and if, the tarot has any of its roots in Judaism. My immediate answer to my own question would be a No, as that I feel would settle the confusion about the origins the tarot.  Whilst my only and so far preferred deck is and has been the Rider Waite, I suppose I cannot claim that other decks are or may be free from any Judaic and/or as you put it, qaballistic symbolism and influence?

Kaperuzita · Post by **Kaperuzita** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:27 pm

Hi Cedars:

Qabalah is not arabic, is hebrew. The Rider Waite tarot, as coming from the Golden Dawn takes a lot from the Qabalah and mixes it with astrology and many other things. Though the original Qabalah is Judish, the tarot is not--so as not to confuse you guys!.

Following with the discussion on the zero, the qabalah deals with numbers and their combinations. Crowley in the Book of Thoth discusses the zero and distinguishes it from the common view of zero as nothing. And yes, zero can come after ten or before one, as there is no beginning or end xD

And yes, this is getting complicated xD

cedars · Post by **cedars** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:55 pm

Hello Kaperuzita,

Good to hear from you.

Coming from an Arabic-speaking background, I was simply looking at the word Qab-allah as having strong roots in Arabic. Also, the Hebrew Alef... is the same as the Arabic Alef.. the first letter of the alphabet and many such letters both in Hebrew and Arabic. For years, these arch enemies (Arabs and Jews) must have shared huge commonalities.

Kaperuzita · Post by **Kaperuzita** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:10 pm

Hi Cedars:

Lol, of course! Usually, you don't get along with the people that are closest to you xD Like neighbors, co-workers, family....and so on.

And I was making the difference because I don't know of any arabic influence on the tarot, except maybe for the numbers,but still.

I had no idea you came from an Arabic-speaking country, here in Chile we have the biggest Palestian colony in the world and I live in a neighboorhood near to the Libanese and Palestinean colonies. I LOVE their food!!

By the way, do you have any time now for a reading? I could post it in the regular channels (i.e. the resquest a reading forum) or send you a personal message.

I'll try to be here more often but the last two weeks have been crazy!

cedars · Post by **cedars** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:41 pm

Holla Kaperuzita,

Oh, my dear friend, I was not saying in any way that tarot had any Arabic influences or background.. I was simply making or trying to make some sense in the similarities of linguistic patterns where qaballah (Hebrew) and the the Arabic languages were concerned, and with that may be trigger some light or further discussion material. But........ when we delve too deep into these things, their complications may become daunting and we may just give up.

As it happens, so far there have been only a few contributors to such topics which are generously raised by Payewacker.

As for a reading for yourself, I will be honoured to do so. Unless your question is of a private nature, you can ask your question via PM,  by all means, but the reading will be given in the open forum as per the regulations of MB site. Otherwise, you can post your request under the proper sub-forum of Tarot Readings.

Please enlighten us with your knowledge and participation whenever you can.

Kaperuzita · Post by **Kaperuzita** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:34 pm

Now I'm reading the Book of Thoth and the cards also have astrological and qabalistic symbols BUT has anyone checked if the Thoth deck has the same symbols as the Rider Waite? It would be interesting to check if Crowley added any modifications regarding this to his deck. Or am I just splitting hairs here? xD

Dear Cedars, I posted my request in the readings forum. After all, how private can an internet forum be? :P

Gee...thx God this has been a slow morning at work!

cedars · Post by **cedars** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Too true. How private can the internet be, eh?

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:08 pm

Hi Guys,

Sorry to only comment now,

It seems as if there is a confusion regding the pre-judaic religions, and perhaps the conotations to the Tarot.

Judaism, and for that matter most religions originate from Gnostisim, this "religious theory" includes the teachings of Zoroaster, Dionesys, and various religious models practising at that stage!

Should you want to go fuher back, you find that in the bible of the christians and specifically the "old testament", you find the split in the Jewish and Muslim teachings, thus the anamosity between the two religious "factions", I put it in this context, because both is a sect of the Old Testament.

Now, as for Tarot becoming a divinatory system, only dates back to the 14th Century and the Sola Busca Tarot was practically the first "complete" Tarot deck found---I would love to get a copy of this deck!!!!!!! The Rider Waite is to a large extend based on this deck. Coleman Smith derived and AE Waite altered a great many images, to suit their teaching!

There was a grandious split in the Golden Dawn, following an argument of theory between Crowley and most of the other Guys, and thus we found the Temple of Set as a result.

The teachings of Crowley, is very much based on the Princess of the different Planets, or Angels ruling certain aspects of the Zodiac, wich he incorporated in the Thoh Deck. Now the frenchman and Kabalist Elivas Levi made the Tarot a key element in his occult teachings and developed the theory that the 22 cards of the 5th suit corresponds to the 22 letters of the Hebrew Aleph-Beth. Then another Frenchman Theosophist Papus related every aspect of the Structure of Tarot to the four letters of the Tetragrammaton (Four letter name of God).

The first person to introduce Tarot to the Occult was Court de Gebelin (1728-1784) Another french occultist Aliette, who changed his name to Etteilla, commisioned the first modern Tarot deck. The Swiss Tarot, designed by Oswald Worth, based on Levi's teachings, all these, formed the basis for the Golden Dawn's teachings on the Tarot. From this then sprouted The Rider Waite Tarot and the Thoh Tarot---after the grand split.

The Hermitic tradition was founded in Alexandria, near the end of the Hellenistic period, therefore the link to Egyptian origen. The teachings of this system was attributed to Hermes Transmegistus, who lived before the time of Moses. However his teachings and books stretches hundreds of years, this because the students and followers of his system, wrote all the literature under his name.

Pythagoras also attributed a lot to Tarot although it may not be clearly "defined" His Tetractus, also gleaned information from the Tree of Life and the Paths found within the Tetractus.

I hope this will give you insight into the origal Tarot and it's basic development.

Blessed be.

Kaperuzita · Post by **Kaperuzita** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:34 pm

Hi Guys:

To continue with the comments and clarifications. It doesn't add to our discussion on the tarot but Islam was founded in the 7th century and though Christianity, Judaism and Islam believe in the Old Testament, Christians have added the New Testament and the Muslims, the Coran. The Coran is said to "replace" the Old Testament for Muslims since it has their new law, the Sharia. Still, muslims recognize Abraham and Jesus as their prophets too. Islam is not merely a faction of the Old Testament though we could consider these three as being "sister" religions and I believe the conflicts within these three go way beyond only religious affairs.

Regarding the tarot..I guess we'll just never know its origins :( Specially because of the hermetic tradition around it.

And dear Payewacker, who wouldn't want a deck of those? xD

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:25 am

Hi Kaperuzita,

Yes, the Tarot and it's origins, history, current flow. Let's say everything around Tarot is so rich and colourfull, don't you just "love it" Yes, getting the SB, will be the "ultimate" in accomplishment. If there's anyone generous enough, please buy one for me, HEEHEE!!!!!!

But, now, i'm on a quest, be sure, if it's out there, i'll find it!!!!!!!!!!! and definitely share it, in our community--MB.

Blessed be

Payewacker · Post by **Payewacker** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:52 am

Hi Kaperuzita,

I personally steer away from having "opposing" or hagling authors, they tend to confuse each other, never mind those trying to make sense of their theories. You mentioned you are busy with Aleister Crowley. I am not familiar with or haven't seen his "book" and deck. I'm not sure I would want to have---personal opinion"

The other topic I raised in this forum has the attributions of the minor Arcanum tabled, from the Golden Dawn, as well as some of my theories. Check it out and see if it is helpfull. If it has been tabled in his book, fine, then you have it! The link to Google docs is there as well.

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... hp?t=65402

Just a thought.

Blessed be[/url]

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THE NUMBERING AND ASSOCIATIONS OF THE MAJOR ARCANUM

THE NUMBERING AND ASSOCIATIONS OF THE MAJOR ARCANUM

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