Hi all
I've seen this combination too many times, yet I haven't any idea what it means. The Temperance reversed comes out as Position 1 (Heart of the Matter) and Death is the obstacle.
What I think would be, the querent has sorta disregarded her health/social or work/life balance and is rather unwilling to change this even if I tell her? Or is it more towards -- actual Death, as in, due to her not finding a balance in her life, her own health would be threatened?
Thanks.
Temperance Reversed crossed by Death?
Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123, TarotModerator
the querent is ignoring or refusing to see or bring about 'temperance' i.e. moderation, healing, in her situation whether it is her mental or physicals health.
Death being an obstacle is not so different from the reversed Temperance in that the querent by refusing or denying herself healing may not bring about the changes that are needed in her life.
It is best not to go down the avenue of physical death, but as you seem to know the querent personally, then I would jokingly say it. Otherwise, unless she looks after her health, she will stay where she is and there will be no improvement in her health or physical state - yes, we could even die; this is an inveitability when people ignore signs or do things in excess.
To answer you question, yes, your view of these two cards is on the right track, but it is a matter of how you put it to the querent.
Death being an obstacle is not so different from the reversed Temperance in that the querent by refusing or denying herself healing may not bring about the changes that are needed in her life.
It is best not to go down the avenue of physical death, but as you seem to know the querent personally, then I would jokingly say it. Otherwise, unless she looks after her health, she will stay where she is and there will be no improvement in her health or physical state - yes, we could even die; this is an inveitability when people ignore signs or do things in excess.
To answer you question, yes, your view of these two cards is on the right track, but it is a matter of how you put it to the querent.
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Payewacker
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Hi Renjer,
Let us get to see what else can be seen here. We have two cards in the existential level of energy--our space time! However, both originated in the archetypal. The last level is the cosmic, into the future, or after death and entering a newer or higher level of life!
Now, I use a bit of numerology here;
Temperance is 14 and in position 1, : 1+4+1=6.....Vav in the Archetypal
Death is 13 in position 2, : 1+2+3=6.....Vav in the Archytepal.
But first go to this link and download this document.
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5y ... MDcy&hl=en
Then download these as well:
Vav: http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5y ... MTcz&hl=en
Then you also download this:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... tZjg&hl=en, and
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... 3Z3E&hl=en
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... 4ZzQ&hl=en
And this will show you, how the three levels of energy is explained:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... cWM1&hl=en
So, Death is 13, reduced to 4, which has to do with God, Geometry and Tarot and is the Emperor. We look at a four-square structure or the "foundation" which can not be altered in CC position 4, but ad 2, you get to Vav, 6--The Lovers.
But what we see is the fulfilling of Death in the Cosmic.
4--40--400
Dallet (Emperor)--Mem (Death)--Tav (The Fool)
Now we do the same with Temperance;
5--50--500
Hay (Hierophant), Nun (Temperance)--Kaf (The Throne).
Fives are ruled by the Hierophant, but he is before The Lovers and after the Emperor.
So my approach would be to say this person is not bringing the right emotion into the second house, and thus it will remain an obstacle, here we are looking at existential, but look where this was born, and the likely influence on the Cosmic level.
The thought process starts by an initial spark, this is Temperance Reversed, so he or she is "locking" the positive thoughts in position two via the Devil and the Emperor!!! I say it like this: Beth is your first thought on something, however, a person can keep on thinking about what he was thinking, and essentially becomes a "if I". I had that thought, what if I did it first"
Blessed be
Let us get to see what else can be seen here. We have two cards in the existential level of energy--our space time! However, both originated in the archetypal. The last level is the cosmic, into the future, or after death and entering a newer or higher level of life!
Now, I use a bit of numerology here;
Temperance is 14 and in position 1, : 1+4+1=6.....Vav in the Archetypal
Death is 13 in position 2, : 1+2+3=6.....Vav in the Archytepal.
But first go to this link and download this document.
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5y ... MDcy&hl=en
Then download these as well:
Vav: http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5y ... MTcz&hl=en
Then you also download this:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... tZjg&hl=en, and
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... 3Z3E&hl=en
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... 4ZzQ&hl=en
And this will show you, how the three levels of energy is explained:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyuZ ... cWM1&hl=en
So, Death is 13, reduced to 4, which has to do with God, Geometry and Tarot and is the Emperor. We look at a four-square structure or the "foundation" which can not be altered in CC position 4, but ad 2, you get to Vav, 6--The Lovers.
But what we see is the fulfilling of Death in the Cosmic.
4--40--400
Dallet (Emperor)--Mem (Death)--Tav (The Fool)
Now we do the same with Temperance;
5--50--500
Hay (Hierophant), Nun (Temperance)--Kaf (The Throne).
Fives are ruled by the Hierophant, but he is before The Lovers and after the Emperor.
So my approach would be to say this person is not bringing the right emotion into the second house, and thus it will remain an obstacle, here we are looking at existential, but look where this was born, and the likely influence on the Cosmic level.
The thought process starts by an initial spark, this is Temperance Reversed, so he or she is "locking" the positive thoughts in position two via the Devil and the Emperor!!! I say it like this: Beth is your first thought on something, however, a person can keep on thinking about what he was thinking, and essentially becomes a "if I". I had that thought, what if I did it first"
Blessed be
Do as you want, Harm none!
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Cascade of Light
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Payewacker
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MMMMM, Guys,
Intriguing, I hope not! Just another visitor. I was a Ur-Anus's, but got evicted? I took to much whisky! Now I drink London Dry Gin with a blend of juices with wheat and nut fiber! Approximately 6 liters of the juice and Gin, you should try it, goes well with beetroot as well.
I have Lemons for breakfast, before brushing my teeth. It has something to do with the dried saliva in your mouth and healing remedies. At midnight I normally have three tomatoes or a few bloody Mary's--excellent for heart disease, or something, something.......?
. I got an email describing the "healing properties", so I just advance or retard the consumption to my daily diet.
Cassie, there are definite archetypes, which expand into the existential and finalise in the Cosmic. I am currently working through the Cypher of Genesis, of which we find the Hebrew Aleph-Beth, also being described as the Alphabet of Creation. Here we find 22 points---the letters---, but they are an expansion of the First Autoit--Aleph. This is a balancing act by the life-death principle, and becomes more pronounced, when getting to Seven, where we see how Jacob's ladder start taking over and movement becomes more than thought, but small bursts of Life-Pulse as portrayed by the Hierophant. The Lovers, is where we find things becoming more "controlled" and directed to Completion in nine. Ten is Attainment.
Cedars, yes these numbers, letters, meanings, expansions is truly a maze, but once I have been able to manage getting it to make more sense, I have to just work through all of this. What to remember is that we have 3 levels of energy working here, but only one source of this energy, working it's way up the ladder to attainment, by which the same cycle is started. This is then where it is important to look at how a cycle can be altered? The perception of a person, is the basic energy we start working with, the cards are pointers, where we have the ability to point out hidden traps, or opportunities.
Have a look at the expanded Vav doc.
Vav/Waw.
Biological process:
Reproduces itself.
Vav expresses the fertilising agent, that which impregnates. It is the direct result of Hay upon Dallet.
Vav/Waw is the male copulative principle whereas Samech 60, its mirror on the existential level is female and receives and concentrate energy.
The archetype of life (Hay, 5) follows the archetype of resistance (Dallet, 4) and leads to the archetype of copulation or Union.
Vav/Waw-6, Translation.
Life, the response to the motion of material animated by spirit, proliferates.
Vav is the copulative element (the male energy) the primary or fundamental act of fertilisation. It is male in both its action and its form or representation. It is interesting that it is an archetype for potential belonging to the first row, while it’s projection in the existence-space-time called Samech-60, is the female sex.
Focusing on the middle of the archetypal level, life resists on the Dallet side and reproduces into existence on the Vav/Waw side.
Second Triad.
4-5-6
Vav/Waw spelled Vav-Vav is simply a copy of itself. Another letter of the Hebrew alphabet, Mem, spelled Mem-Mem has itself for a root Vav/Waw fertilises, Mem receives. Besides appearing in itself, Vav/Waw contributes to the spelling of Yod, Noun, Qof and Tav, where it is the connecting agent between existence and resistance (Yod), between inner life and outer life in, life-in-existence. Noun between cosmic consciousness and real possibilities (Qof) and between Tav and the rest of the alphabet.
Blessed be
Intriguing, I hope not! Just another visitor. I was a Ur-Anus's, but got evicted? I took to much whisky! Now I drink London Dry Gin with a blend of juices with wheat and nut fiber! Approximately 6 liters of the juice and Gin, you should try it, goes well with beetroot as well.
I have Lemons for breakfast, before brushing my teeth. It has something to do with the dried saliva in your mouth and healing remedies. At midnight I normally have three tomatoes or a few bloody Mary's--excellent for heart disease, or something, something.......?
. I got an email describing the "healing properties", so I just advance or retard the consumption to my daily diet.Cassie, there are definite archetypes, which expand into the existential and finalise in the Cosmic. I am currently working through the Cypher of Genesis, of which we find the Hebrew Aleph-Beth, also being described as the Alphabet of Creation. Here we find 22 points---the letters---, but they are an expansion of the First Autoit--Aleph. This is a balancing act by the life-death principle, and becomes more pronounced, when getting to Seven, where we see how Jacob's ladder start taking over and movement becomes more than thought, but small bursts of Life-Pulse as portrayed by the Hierophant. The Lovers, is where we find things becoming more "controlled" and directed to Completion in nine. Ten is Attainment.
Cedars, yes these numbers, letters, meanings, expansions is truly a maze, but once I have been able to manage getting it to make more sense, I have to just work through all of this. What to remember is that we have 3 levels of energy working here, but only one source of this energy, working it's way up the ladder to attainment, by which the same cycle is started. This is then where it is important to look at how a cycle can be altered? The perception of a person, is the basic energy we start working with, the cards are pointers, where we have the ability to point out hidden traps, or opportunities.
Have a look at the expanded Vav doc.
Vav/Waw.
Biological process:
Reproduces itself.
Vav expresses the fertilising agent, that which impregnates. It is the direct result of Hay upon Dallet.
Vav/Waw is the male copulative principle whereas Samech 60, its mirror on the existential level is female and receives and concentrate energy.
The archetype of life (Hay, 5) follows the archetype of resistance (Dallet, 4) and leads to the archetype of copulation or Union.
Vav/Waw-6, Translation.
Life, the response to the motion of material animated by spirit, proliferates.
Vav is the copulative element (the male energy) the primary or fundamental act of fertilisation. It is male in both its action and its form or representation. It is interesting that it is an archetype for potential belonging to the first row, while it’s projection in the existence-space-time called Samech-60, is the female sex.
Focusing on the middle of the archetypal level, life resists on the Dallet side and reproduces into existence on the Vav/Waw side.
Second Triad.
4-5-6
Vav/Waw spelled Vav-Vav is simply a copy of itself. Another letter of the Hebrew alphabet, Mem, spelled Mem-Mem has itself for a root Vav/Waw fertilises, Mem receives. Besides appearing in itself, Vav/Waw contributes to the spelling of Yod, Noun, Qof and Tav, where it is the connecting agent between existence and resistance (Yod), between inner life and outer life in, life-in-existence. Noun between cosmic consciousness and real possibilities (Qof) and between Tav and the rest of the alphabet.
Blessed be
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Cascade of Light
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- Contact:
Umm I think we all are :smt003 but the thing is does anyone really have the carewithall to try and become unconfused with something that is really just another person's take on where tarot came from? That is the base we should try for because many believe genesis to be a story, nothing more, and the 22 Halls of Amente to be the true origin?cedars wrote: I thin Renjer is now super confused.
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x
Cas x
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Payewacker
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Hi Cassie,
That was my take on the Tarot. But then, the one thing of which no-one can discount, is the attachment of the Majors to the Aleph-Beth, and for that matter also the 22 Halls. This is not about the origin of Tarot, but by it's nature the attachment to the above.
The only way for me to give you some insight is to quote the following:
"In spite of the increasing hold of mathematics on departments as far apart as optics, philology, biology or ethics, it cannot and will never discover a basic postulate befitting the simultaneous existence of a universe and of man.
Some religiously-minded people are aware of this lack of a unitary way of thought capable of including the knowledge of man and the knowledge of things. Although far too late, they are only just in time to measure, not without some perplexity, the unthought-of distance which separates them from the world as it is.
Like bewildered passengers in a ship astray on uncharted seas, whose call to Saviours is of no avail, we are told to believe in a brotherly huddle, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked as a means of atonement. Does not the sacred thus humanized fall under Jesus's curse: Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence to me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men (Matt. xvi, 2~)?
This emphasizing of "the things that be of man" stressed by so many churches today-in an attempt to recapture their grip on human affairs-blended with a clinging to obsolete myths does not lead to the sacred fount of revelation and knowledge, but rather to an alienation from it.
In order to obviate this estrangement, high authorities have asked learned personalities, priests, monks, ministers, rabbis, to co-operate in retranslating the Bible into different languages. In this connection the most ancient of ancient traditions (the Qabala) cannot but issue a severe warning to those scholars: their monumental task will not lead them any nearer the Source, not only because the Bible is untranslatable but, strange as it may seem, because it is already hopelessly mistranslated in Hebrew.
The twenty-two graphs which are used as letters in the Hebrew alphabet are twenty-two proper names originally used to designate different states or structures of the one cosmic energy, which is essence and semblance, of all that is. Even though they correspond to numbers, symbols and ideas, those twenty two vastly exceed all the most exhaustive sets of classes: they cannot be distributed among things because they factually are that which they designate.
One has to probe very deeply into this semasiology to realize that this last statement does not exceed the limits of truth and need not be a cause of astonishment. We are approaching here a language which is not a by-product of sensorial references, but a would-be transmission from the unknown. Hence the difficulty of explaining it, because of the inability of the human mind to grasp that which is not contained in a frame of recognition".
We all know that the Tarot was a mere card-game (or believed to be), it was the Occult founders, who thought it to be more than as face value, and the attraction of it being a means of divination, developed the notion that the Majors are attached the 22 Hebrew letters. Now this is exactly where Tarotists get confused in reading the Majors. The names and numbers are so intertwined, that it is impossible to read the Majors at face value only. This is due to the Majors, by "us" attached to the Hebrew Alphabet.
Giving good consideration to the quoted essay, we should now know that we most definitely don't work with "face-value" cards. A Waite knew this, and so did Crowley! So in essence it is important to know how this whole lot fit together!
Now, why do you think I am busy with designing the cards of the five finals in the Cosmic level of energy, yet we have only 22 letters. The name of YHWE has 27 letters, each is a specific "facet" and is called the Tetragramaton. This is now where Pythagoras designed or helped in finalizing NUMEROLOGY and the Tetragramoton is contained in the Tetractus.
Blessed be.
That was my take on the Tarot. But then, the one thing of which no-one can discount, is the attachment of the Majors to the Aleph-Beth, and for that matter also the 22 Halls. This is not about the origin of Tarot, but by it's nature the attachment to the above.
The only way for me to give you some insight is to quote the following:
"In spite of the increasing hold of mathematics on departments as far apart as optics, philology, biology or ethics, it cannot and will never discover a basic postulate befitting the simultaneous existence of a universe and of man.
Some religiously-minded people are aware of this lack of a unitary way of thought capable of including the knowledge of man and the knowledge of things. Although far too late, they are only just in time to measure, not without some perplexity, the unthought-of distance which separates them from the world as it is.
Like bewildered passengers in a ship astray on uncharted seas, whose call to Saviours is of no avail, we are told to believe in a brotherly huddle, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked as a means of atonement. Does not the sacred thus humanized fall under Jesus's curse: Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence to me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men (Matt. xvi, 2~)?
This emphasizing of "the things that be of man" stressed by so many churches today-in an attempt to recapture their grip on human affairs-blended with a clinging to obsolete myths does not lead to the sacred fount of revelation and knowledge, but rather to an alienation from it.
In order to obviate this estrangement, high authorities have asked learned personalities, priests, monks, ministers, rabbis, to co-operate in retranslating the Bible into different languages. In this connection the most ancient of ancient traditions (the Qabala) cannot but issue a severe warning to those scholars: their monumental task will not lead them any nearer the Source, not only because the Bible is untranslatable but, strange as it may seem, because it is already hopelessly mistranslated in Hebrew.
The twenty-two graphs which are used as letters in the Hebrew alphabet are twenty-two proper names originally used to designate different states or structures of the one cosmic energy, which is essence and semblance, of all that is. Even though they correspond to numbers, symbols and ideas, those twenty two vastly exceed all the most exhaustive sets of classes: they cannot be distributed among things because they factually are that which they designate.
One has to probe very deeply into this semasiology to realize that this last statement does not exceed the limits of truth and need not be a cause of astonishment. We are approaching here a language which is not a by-product of sensorial references, but a would-be transmission from the unknown. Hence the difficulty of explaining it, because of the inability of the human mind to grasp that which is not contained in a frame of recognition".
We all know that the Tarot was a mere card-game (or believed to be), it was the Occult founders, who thought it to be more than as face value, and the attraction of it being a means of divination, developed the notion that the Majors are attached the 22 Hebrew letters. Now this is exactly where Tarotists get confused in reading the Majors. The names and numbers are so intertwined, that it is impossible to read the Majors at face value only. This is due to the Majors, by "us" attached to the Hebrew Alphabet.
Giving good consideration to the quoted essay, we should now know that we most definitely don't work with "face-value" cards. A Waite knew this, and so did Crowley! So in essence it is important to know how this whole lot fit together!
Now, why do you think I am busy with designing the cards of the five finals in the Cosmic level of energy, yet we have only 22 letters. The name of YHWE has 27 letters, each is a specific "facet" and is called the Tetragramaton. This is now where Pythagoras designed or helped in finalizing NUMEROLOGY and the Tetragramoton is contained in the Tetractus.
Blessed be.
Do as you want, Harm none!
Hi again
In fact... the moral of the story is, the situation is much simpler than that.
I sent the reading to my friend (all 10 cards) a couple of days earlier and she'd only read it recently. And half an hour after she read my reading, her dad called to say that her uncle had died.
Now this is one very shocking reading. I never ever encountered Death as an obstacle, but now I know.
In fact... the moral of the story is, the situation is much simpler than that.
I sent the reading to my friend (all 10 cards) a couple of days earlier and she'd only read it recently. And half an hour after she read my reading, her dad called to say that her uncle had died.
Now this is one very shocking reading. I never ever encountered Death as an obstacle, but now I know.
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Rhutobello
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It was just a general reading after all, and she's also had another death much earlier this year. So, wouldn't this sort of present itself as an "Obstacle" to her? Of course she'd feel v depressed, seeing that it's her 2nd death this year.
I know that most of the time we don't tend to read the Death card as actual death, but maybe this one is different.
I know that most of the time we don't tend to read the Death card as actual death, but maybe this one is different.
An obstacle is different to an Outcome. So, how did the deaths around her present her with an obstacle? But I cannot see how this relates to the revered Temperance.
In other words, you are saying as far as the Celtic Cross goes, her reading simply ended at card number 2. What about all the other placements?
In other words, you are saying as far as the Celtic Cross goes, her reading simply ended at card number 2. What about all the other placements?
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Payewacker
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- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:01 am
Hi Renjer,
You may be well surprised to know that the Death card, points to death, this is not an archetypal mindset, but a very real experience in our space-time.
The Death card may show an actual death! See the Tower in the same perspective, you may think it's not possible to see when someone may die, think again!
We can not pigeon-hole any card. Death can also point to a positive transition, or being at one with personal growth. The old falls away, and the new starts.
How can I say what i'm telling you.
Add 13 plus two---you get six, the Lovers. An archetype, uplifting to Samech in the existential--the Devil, and further into the Cosmic in Mem, which is attached to Death and Scorpio! In essence, Vav, the Lovers is fertilised by Samech--the Devil. This is a strong pointer to being "entrapped"
Then Vav, is a reproduction of itself, so is Mem. Look at the cards. Lay the original spread, and start adding the Majors, in the Archetypal, Existential and Cosmic levels.
Follow this link:
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyu ... cWM1&hl=en
Look at how the "people" are creating prisons or castles on themselves, starting by a mere thought, to becoming the "reality", and then influencing them on a higher level.
However, if you gave a "general" reading, you have a general output. In this I have to agree with Cedars, regarding the other cards, as we are only working on card 1 and card 2. You have a CC, which has ten cards and ten placements, we can't disregard the other possibilities.
The CC is not only describing the past, current or future. It is a spread, specifically and understood to describe "the Past", "the Current" and " the Future".
As RW shows the spread, you can also do a few 3 card "spreads"---One of which will be Direct Past, Present, Very near Future. This is seen in card One, Two and Three. Another 3 card spread is card 5, card 1 and card 6, once again, past, present, future.
Then, the CC must be seen to have an outcome, which involves card 3, card 6, card 9 and card 10.
Once again, you are boldly marching on, and that is absolutely so great, enjoy your life with Tarot, it's enriching, stimulating and very creative.
Well done!
Blessed be.
You may be well surprised to know that the Death card, points to death, this is not an archetypal mindset, but a very real experience in our space-time.
The Death card may show an actual death! See the Tower in the same perspective, you may think it's not possible to see when someone may die, think again!
We can not pigeon-hole any card. Death can also point to a positive transition, or being at one with personal growth. The old falls away, and the new starts.
How can I say what i'm telling you.
Add 13 plus two---you get six, the Lovers. An archetype, uplifting to Samech in the existential--the Devil, and further into the Cosmic in Mem, which is attached to Death and Scorpio! In essence, Vav, the Lovers is fertilised by Samech--the Devil. This is a strong pointer to being "entrapped"
Then Vav, is a reproduction of itself, so is Mem. Look at the cards. Lay the original spread, and start adding the Majors, in the Archetypal, Existential and Cosmic levels.
Follow this link:
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZyu ... cWM1&hl=en
Look at how the "people" are creating prisons or castles on themselves, starting by a mere thought, to becoming the "reality", and then influencing them on a higher level.
However, if you gave a "general" reading, you have a general output. In this I have to agree with Cedars, regarding the other cards, as we are only working on card 1 and card 2. You have a CC, which has ten cards and ten placements, we can't disregard the other possibilities.
The CC is not only describing the past, current or future. It is a spread, specifically and understood to describe "the Past", "the Current" and " the Future".
As RW shows the spread, you can also do a few 3 card "spreads"---One of which will be Direct Past, Present, Very near Future. This is seen in card One, Two and Three. Another 3 card spread is card 5, card 1 and card 6, once again, past, present, future.
Then, the CC must be seen to have an outcome, which involves card 3, card 6, card 9 and card 10.
Once again, you are boldly marching on, and that is absolutely so great, enjoy your life with Tarot, it's enriching, stimulating and very creative.
Well done!
Blessed be.
Do as you want, Harm none!
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