Reversals - When reversals are reversed!

[George]

So really nobody understands me, or nobody actually checks which way up the deck is? Interesting lol.

as i said, i don't do reversals and i for sure don't check to see if my deck is "which way up the deck is?"   what ever that really means!  my only true point was is not to worry so much about it and do what works for you.  :smt002

[TarotModerator]

People approach reversals in so many different ways. Some argue reversals increase the number of meanings of the cards, i.e. 78 x 2 = 156 meanings. I dont - strictly speaking - view it that way.
There are those who maintain that reversed cards are the same meaning but of a weaker energy or emphasis and so on and so on and so on......

Once again we come back to the relationship of the reader with his/her cards.

[Nilset]

In my opinion, the way you draw from your deck down is part of the reading. There's no such thing as right way up. But I'm pretty inexperienced with tarot...

[Cascade of Light]

In my opinion, the way you draw from your deck down is part of the reading. There's no such thing as right way up. But I'm pretty inexperienced with tarot...

Hi Nilset, welcome.

Thanks for your input.

I can understand your thoughts. Do you use reversals?

Most readers think that is is imperative to know if a deck is upright or upside down, otherwise for a reader that does not routinely use reversals they may be suddenly faced with a whole reading of cards upside down and look a right idiot in front of the seeker.

[Payewacker]

I went through this thread with great interest.

When I read, I use reversals and the differing interpretations to it. Yes it does call for more meanings, but those are learned.

I purposely will create reversals by just shuffling on a big black cloth, bring to one pile, cut etc..... However, I do make sure my deck is "upright" before any shuffling starts. The cards are even cleaned before any reading. This I do by arranging the cards in the numeric format from the Fool, the World down to Magician. Then Swords, Cups, Pentacles and Wands, these from King to Ace.

First I would select the significator and replace the other Courts back in the deck. The significator will be shuffled with all the others but face up. Aftre the third round off shuffling and before laying, the significator is removed, and one last shuffle done. Then starts the laying.

If it happens that more than 50% of the cards are reversed, I will clean the cards as explained, but keep the significator out. Then I will lay the cards again. If I still have more than 50% reversals, I abandon the reading and let it stand over to another day. If I have other readings, I cancel them as well.

Having the 9 of S, in a reading, I close the cards and will not read at all again that day!! I will even place the cards in the moonlight to re-charge. After, I will smudge them with incense until I feel comfortable with them again.

Blessed be.

[cedars]

PW, it sounds quite a long-winded  process of shuffling my friend.  What is the point? By 'creating' reversals how poignant would the meanings of those reversed cards if it was only 'created' by our own mechanical way of shuffling?  Like George said, I do shuffle my cards upright and do not do this intentional mixing of the whole deck. IF and WHEN after all that I get a reversal, then I DO pay attention to that card!

If it happens that more than 50% of the cards are reversed, I will clean the cards as explained, but keep the significator out. Then I will lay the cards again. If I still have more than 50% reversals, I abandon the reading and let it stand over to another day. If I have other readings, I cancel them as well.

At the way the shuffling and the intentional creation of reversals is done, I wouldn't be surprised that one would get sometimes 50% of the cards reversed in a reading. Why? Because the reader created those reversals by some intentional and mechanical - if not premeditated - action.

Having the 9 of S, in a reading, I close the cards and will not read at all again that day!! I will even place the cards in the moonlight to re-charge. After, I will smudge them with incense until I feel comfortable with them again.

But why so with the Nine of Swords? It is part of the whole deck and it has its rightful meaning in a reading.What if you got it every time you dealt the cards? Will you pack the deck away and never give a reading because of that? Why not with the Ten of Swords? Why not with the Tower? If the Nine of Swords had come up in a reading, however you interpret the card, that there was a valid reason for it to come about. I know you take the Nine of Swords as the physical death, but is it? Does it have to be?

[Payewacker]

Hi Cedars,

I understand your approach, however, I need to tend to Business for the next hour or three and will rather construct a proper reply explaining my "methods" and why?

Blessed be.

[cedars]

Dont work too hard!

[Cascade of Light]

PW, thank-you, It is funny because you sound rather more like Aleister Crowley there than our dear Arthur. But I am glad that you understood what I was going on about and felt the same with reversals being important to know which way is up

Hope you are feeling well

[Payewacker]

Hi Cedars,

As a result of your questions, I compiled a short reply, which I want to turn into a doc very soon.

The Spirits of the Tarot
There is a preoccupation that the spiritual powers behind the Tarot are found in Dark Matter, however this theory may be questioned and might be attached to the approach of the Cartomantist, These Spirits are those found in Liber 231,  ruling the Major Arcana, the Goetia, ruling the Minors from  Two to Ten, and the Enochian Spirits, ruling the Aces and Court Cards.
The Goetia and the Minor Arcanum Cards: Two to Ten.
We find 72 Goetic spirits who are associated  with the Quenances and the 36 Decanates. According to sources, the Goetic spirits are discussed in the Abramelin rituals as part of the magician attaining his or her Holy Guardian Angel. The Abramelin book is mediaeval, and all the spirits are portrayed as demonic. The rituals used by magicians, following the Abramelin, have barely changed for centuries, and are unsophisticated at best, and barbaric at worst. In these rituals the Magician is more likely to harm himself than his intent. So, the perception was to treat them as demons, therefore, they appeared and acted as demons.
If we try to attach the 72 spirits to the 52 Minor Arcanum Cards, we have many “numbers” not accounted for. In this regard we need to remember that the Minor Arcanum Cards associated, doubles up as “night and day”, thus, only 36 Decanates. Furthermore the Aces and the Court Cards are not ruled by the Goetia, but by the Enochian Spirits.
Liber 231 and the 22 Major Arcanum Cards
The Liber 231 are spirits associated with the Major Arcana.
These described spirits can give a great deal of insight to the reader. Within the “grouping”, we find two sets of 22 spirits assigned to the Major Arcanum Cards. Once again, these spirits will act in the way you perceive them to be.
Enochian Spirits.
Enochian Magic is possibly the most powerful magical system, but it requires knowledge, practice and talent. The Enochian Spirits control the Aces and the Court Cards, hence their “potency”. We can look upon them as the “FIRST SPARK” with the energies of the Court Cards, the rulers and the “ruled”.

Now, although I did not know this all the way, I always called upon the spirits to give me guidance and understanding. In this I also understood their duty to manipulate the cards. With their understanding of how I read, and being sensitive to the 9 of S, I hardly ever get this card in readings. It happened when an entire family asked for readings, all of them had the 9 of S, so, no readings were done that day! This family endured hardship and loss the last few months, what would have been the use to read or give false hope?

Reading cards with a "reversed orientation" does not mean they are bad. Some of my interpretations -- reversed, are better than upright, look at the 5 of P. Therefore, once I met the full monty on the quenances and decanates, it became clear that there is space for reading a reversed card, two spirits, one light, the other dark, to each card? The 9th decanate, specifically S is not good, it implies ............, therefore, no go for that one, but to stop a reading, then, that is the purpose and importance of the card in the deck!

In this sense, I don't consider myself mechanically manipulating the cards at all. When I do hard readings, the entire process is done by the seeker. That is why I need to clean the deck of their energies.

I hope you understand the method to my madness, or why I sleep on it?

Blessed be.

[Payewacker]

Hi Cassie,

Francois always say I'm a bit "sleepy" most of the time. I had a massive blond moment now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't figure the Arthur bit? Thought you spoke of "KING ARTHUR".

Possible because I'm studying the Grail Tarot??

 :smt005  :smt005

I'm OK,
Blessed be.

[Cascade of Light]

How do you like the Grail? I was in two minds with it?

Wow How could you forsake Arthur Edward! But mention of Liber et all is definitely non Art and Pro Ale? I do blonde all the time, (it sets people off their guard lol)

Cassie xx









_________________
A cascade of light shone down on me, then the angels spoke, and set me free,
Cas x

[Payewacker]

Pro Ale, mmm, I don't want to walk that road? Especially if I have to take a +*(_ on the carpet in the front dorm, not social??? I think it's important to give due respect to work done, although we may not agree to "all" the doings and screwings of the Ewings?LOL

The Grail Tarot, don't waste your money!! I'm sorry to say this, but it's absolutely true. I think we are to assimilated to the "heavier" quality cards. The artwork is not too shaby, but I can say the entire "traditional Tarot" is lost. Understandably it's a "Templar's Vision", but it's far too "Christian", to be a true Tarot deck.

Then again we can't say it's "Christian" per say. The symbology is more woven around the Virgin Mary and it's connotations. Were the Templars Catholic, if so, they are not considered as "Christians" by most of the modern theological orientations. What is also interesting is that some of the Catholics and even their "higher" priests practised some form of Tarot, notwithstanding the influences at that time. What is even more interesting, is that they were practically "quoted" in public on Tarot readings done. In 1889 Papus primarily "introduced" a simplified spread, which is widely used as a "three card" spread. Before this, the Gypsies used huge spreads, and if we think of it, would most probably have given rise to the "fear" some querants have when a reading is done.

The Grail Tarot refers to the four hallows, considering the minor arcanum. This is supposed to portray some aspect of the Grail itself. Here I start becoming somewhat confused--(that doesn't take much to acheive)! In the Major Arcanum, the Devil is "Lucifer" falling from the sky with a sword pointed at the Earth. Somehow his Sword is melted to become a cup, but the Philosepher's Stone (Pentacles) may also be the quest, and fell from the crown of Lucifer. I may have things totally screwed here, but anyway, you get the picture.

If we look at cards and place them, the Court Cards are in the front of the rest of the Minors. The Lady is given priority, as she displays a quality of the virgin Mary, then we have the Master, the Preceptor and the brother. The Pip cards start with "One of Stones", etc, not Ace. Ok, these are most probably just a theory the author introduced. All the suits are long "freezes" on their own, and in fact, perhaps it may have been done like this by someone else. What I do see, is that the Court cards are actually part of the Minor Arcanum completely, and not seen in our "traditional" order or "separate" to the Minors.

When we look at the cards themselves, it is impossible to try and apply any of the known symbolism at all, although the same or similar "interpretations" are used. Trying to be completely "open-minded", I searched for a true indication on the cards of its "meaning", and I must say that, looking at the image, I can't really marry the two, on some of the cards.

On the other side, the cards portray a simple path followed by most people, as in the archetypal. It brings to mind the high's and lows in life and how we need to cope with what is happening. We are reminded of being totally committed as the Knight were in those days, and the cause they were fighting for.

Perhaps I am too dogmatic in following RW and related Tarot. I think even the Thoh is more inclined to the pure symbolism?

As for me as a person, I am not inclined to enjoy the deck at all, it will only be another deck in my collection. I am also studying the Elemental Tarot and acquired the biggest heap of trash the "Simply Tarot".

[Cascade of Light]

Glad to hear you felt the same way I did lo9l. Sad though isn't it?  I quest for the perfect deck, think that's why I am making my own too.