Organisations and agencies working
with immigrants
The Norwegian Red Cross, Self-help for Immigrants
and Refugees (SEIF), the MiRA Resource Centre for
Refugee and Immigrant Women (MiRA-Senteret) and
the Human Rights Service (HRS) all work actively to
combat forced marriage. The Red Cross, SEIF and
MiRA engage in preventive work and also provide emergency
assistance to individuals in need, and they
receive support for this work from the Ministry of
Children and Equality. Preventive work consists of
publishing reports, brochures, booklets and teaching
aids and arranging lectures, seminars, courses and
“theme evenings”. Their target groups consist of
young people and parents in communities that practice
arranged marriage and schools, youth workers, child
welfare services and others who come into contact
with this problem in the course of their work. In crisis
cases, the NGOs provide advice and guidance, fi nd
alternative accommodation if necessary, follow the
young people up and help them to establish a new
life for themselves. The NGOs work closely with the
child welfare service and the crisis centres.
The International Health and Social Group (IHSG),
Utrop, the Minhaj Confl ict Board, groups at the
Primary Medicine Workshop, the International
House Foundation, the Resource Centre for Pakistani
Children and the Iraqi-Kurdish Organisation for
Asylum-Seekers and Refugees in Norway (IKAF)
have all received support from the Ministry of
Children and Equality to engage in information and
awareness-raising activities.
Organisations such as African Youth, SOS Racism
and the Anti-Racist Centre report that forced marriage
is a topic at meetings and seminars for young people.
The young people are concerned about this issue,
which affects many of them. If individuals have problems
or are in a crisis situation, these organisations will refer
them to others who have more expertise in this fi eld.
The role of the Organisation against Public Discrimination
(OMOD) is primarily to detect and raise
awareness of discrimination and a lack of diversity
perspective in public services. Among other things,
the organisation monitors what various ministries
have done with respect to action plans against forced
marriage. If the organisation receives enquiries from
individuals, it refers them to others. Christian Intercultural
Work (KIA) also states that it refers individuals
to other agencies if they need follow-up in connection
with forced marriage.
The forced marriage hotline (815 55 201)
The forced marriage hotline has been in operation
since 2000. It is run by the Oslo Red Cross at the
request of the Ministry of Children and Equality. The
line is open from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Friday.
The caller may remain anonymous and the person
who answers has an duty of confi dentiality. The target
groups are young people who are the victims of forced
marriage or threatened with forced marriage, persons
wishing to help friends or fellow pupils and other
agencies that need advice and guidance. The hotline
provides advice and guidance on matters relating to
forced marriage and information about Norwegian
marriage legislation, self-help groups, individual
conversations and participation in network-building.
_____________________________________________
So..if the problem is no excistent....why do we use so much money on it?...why are so many people and organizations involved?....are they all ignorant?....if so...PLEASE TELL US WHERE WE FAILED!
What do you think about "Arranged Marriages"?
Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123
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soulsearch
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:06 pm
Projjwal,
Regards
MJ
Great on doing your research. Very relevant findings. Such things do happen for what little I have seen in life. I just hope this is just a study and not your general perception towards women and regarding the severely punished statement ..I hope that goes for any gender..Right???Although some of these cranky old John McCains from the western world would love to portray their Sarah Palins as the most hapless beings who need to be protected and stood up for, I think the society definitely needs to severely punish women who are misusing these laws
Regards
MJ
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projenator
- Posts: 711
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:43 pm
MJy,soulsearch wrote:Projjwal,
I just hope this is just a study and not your general perception towards women and regarding the severely punished statement ..I hope that goes for any gender..Right???
Regards
MJ
I am all for justice ( my ascendant is Libra ) I am not the one who would shy away from speaking up when I see injustice or false negative portrayal of any culture, sect, caste, creed etc. Having lived in the western world for quite a while, I am well aware keeping quiet through either feeling disgraced or agitated won't help much, it will only give these biased supremacists more leeway in denigrating other cultures and establishing their superiority.
Neither my parents had an arranged marriage way back in 1973, nor will be my marriage arranged by my parents but i strongly believe in making mature relationship decisions and working constantly at relationships once I am in it. What deeply concerns me on this forum is the constant negative portrayal of Indian marriage values and vedic astrology by a section of biased westerners which unfortunately has reached such amazing proportions that it has lead to some very respected and knowledgeable members (the total astrology research experience of these members were more than the age of some of these westerners ) leaving the vedic astrology forum. Leave alone marriage values, some of the recommendations in the vedic astrology reading forum are being overturned in a way which goes against the very grain of astrology in general, leave alone vedic astrology. I take a firm stand at such disrespect and hence i speak up, which I feel i have every right in a democratic forum.
I have spoken up for women as well in some of my readings on the vedic astrology forum as well. In case you want to revisit those threads, let me know.
I go to great lengths, do my research, preserve all my references (anyone seeking references to facts and figures quoted in my previous post on this thread can pm me) and then use them in postings. In my previous postings I have presented stats, facts, figures from respected women authors, either their books or articles in maganzines, websites etc more than my perception. More than how I view it, what's important is how the world views it, especially women. When Reva Seth writes in her book only 5 to 7 pc of negotiated nuptials goes awry, it makes a strong case for such unions over marriages out of lust etc. When Marian Salzman, the New York trendspotter considers it more pragmatic and has already identified negotiated nuptials as appropriate in a period of economic turbulence, it deserves serious consideration unless you are one of those divas who consider yourself over and above everyone else in your own realm of fantasy. Reva Seth was quoted from her book "First comes marriage" while Lori Gottlieb was quoted from her article "Marry Him" in the March 2008 issue of Atlantic Monthly. The matchmaker I am personally in touch with is Robin French from Selective Search, Chicago. Patti Stangler, the other well renowned matchmaker in US who runs millionaire's club and also has a show on TV also deserves mention in the context of negotiated nuptials.
Finally, as far as my general perception go, I take every human being i come across as a blank white sheet of paper without harboring any preconceived notions from past experiences etc. I have met some really nice women both in India and America. There's absolutely no doubt about this, a few rotten eggs leading to a negative general perception is beyond any comprehension, not even in my wildest dreams. Interestingly every article written about these extreme modern women, freemales, divas whatever is it you want to call them, are by women.
Kind regards,
Last edited by projenator on Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
coloratura
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:43 pm
- Location: Lost in thought.
- Contact:
Personally as a "Westerner", I'm almost a little offended that someone would lump us all into the same group and blame our culture on ruining marriages and having false ideas about relationships. I agree. western culture and thought has done away with a lot of the traditional values that have been the fabric to holding a society of peace and harmony together.
However, the disease that Western societies are afflicted with will be the same disease that will afflict all nations at some point in time. Namely, this disease is that of dogmatism, or the claim that only one way of thought holds ultimate truth.
In my humble opinion, and due to time constraints I am not able to read this thread in its entirety, if both parties consent to the arranged marriages, then that's fine. However, marriages should not be forced or done for the sake of continuing a family line etc.
Furthermore, I find this whole discussion of gender frustrating at best. If we are all human, why is there this need to constantly fight and war between the genders?
Coming from an Asian background myself, I've found it frustrating that men and women both have separate standards to which they must adhere. Men are expected to ahve one set of characteristics, while women are to have another.
Why is it that we cannot all just be people at the core? Must we be defined by our gender, or sexual orientation, etc.?
I think that there is a subtle, albeit extremely crucial, difference in being a girl anatomically and being defined as a girl. Anatomically, one can be a woman/girl but one is free to pursue her passions etc. However, if one defines oneself as a girl, then one must inevitably adhere to society's image of a girl, doing that which seems to befit the feminine nature. One is thenceforth no longer a person but has transformed into a cookie cutter image, give or take a few deviances, of society's standards for femininity and masculinity.
However, the disease that Western societies are afflicted with will be the same disease that will afflict all nations at some point in time. Namely, this disease is that of dogmatism, or the claim that only one way of thought holds ultimate truth.
In my humble opinion, and due to time constraints I am not able to read this thread in its entirety, if both parties consent to the arranged marriages, then that's fine. However, marriages should not be forced or done for the sake of continuing a family line etc.
Furthermore, I find this whole discussion of gender frustrating at best. If we are all human, why is there this need to constantly fight and war between the genders?
Coming from an Asian background myself, I've found it frustrating that men and women both have separate standards to which they must adhere. Men are expected to ahve one set of characteristics, while women are to have another.
Why is it that we cannot all just be people at the core? Must we be defined by our gender, or sexual orientation, etc.?
I think that there is a subtle, albeit extremely crucial, difference in being a girl anatomically and being defined as a girl. Anatomically, one can be a woman/girl but one is free to pursue her passions etc. However, if one defines oneself as a girl, then one must inevitably adhere to society's image of a girl, doing that which seems to befit the feminine nature. One is thenceforth no longer a person but has transformed into a cookie cutter image, give or take a few deviances, of society's standards for femininity and masculinity.
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
First.
Can you Please use the word "Forced Arranged Marriages" in your discussion, because I, and I think very few other complains on other Traditions of India, if we do...then we use specefic name for it...for every Country is urged to have its tradition, else it will lose it's identety.
Second.
I have never called for the happiness of any marriage, that be in the east or in the west.
The discussion is not about happiness, divorce,infidelity,adultery, or any other form you will use....the discussion is about the right of a human being.
This right you use to fight others right to deceide for themself who they shall marry, which I assume is a major thing in anyones life.
You tell us that you are for justice, but your action must then be questioned.
Third.
I have givven you some copy paste from the Norwegian government, but it seems not to go in....so I will try to show some from Scotland.
And thx for keeping the thread going.....you are doing a good mission there ...... maybe you after all are Against Forced Marriages!
Can you Please use the word "Forced Arranged Marriages" in your discussion, because I, and I think very few other complains on other Traditions of India, if we do...then we use specefic name for it...for every Country is urged to have its tradition, else it will lose it's identety.
Second.
I have never called for the happiness of any marriage, that be in the east or in the west.
The discussion is not about happiness, divorce,infidelity,adultery, or any other form you will use....the discussion is about the right of a human being.
This right you use to fight others right to deceide for themself who they shall marry, which I assume is a major thing in anyones life.
You tell us that you are for justice, but your action must then be questioned.
Third.
I have givven you some copy paste from the Norwegian government, but it seems not to go in....so I will try to show some from Scotland.
And thx for keeping the thread going.....you are doing a good mission there ...... maybe you after all are Against Forced Marriages!
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
There is another point that is of the highest importance here, I have said it....but maybe not good enough for all to understand.
Ask yourself; when did the "western world" start to really oppose this "Forced Arranged marriage" Tradition?
It was after the big migration started.
The thing that happens is that those who migrate, bring with them their tradition.
When they then live in their "New Homeland", they are bound to live after the rule of this country, which again have its own Tradition, which they are proud of, and they might not like that their Country is connected to the use of "Forced Arranged Marriages".
It is not so easy to only say : "IT is done by immigrants", because then we must tell these immigrants that our culture don't allow such a thing!
Many, feel that their tradition stay above the law of the new country,and they might think; "we have had Forced Arranged Marriages for thousands of year, and none can say we can't do it!"
In order to change this attitude, we must change the source.
It is of little use to convert the view of one and one of the emigrants, because they look to home, and they will therefore have the "moral support" from there.
The best way to change this "Bad Tradition" (Which is a part of a much bigger and colorful tradition" is to change the view at home.
More and more countries will ban "Forced Arranged Marriages", more and more voices will be raised for its ending.
The faster this message can reach those who practice this tradition, the faster you save many a life, the faster you may avoid many a bad fate, both from those who practice it, and for those who are forced under it.
If projenator try to read any of my post, he will see that I haven't complained on any "people" at all...., I have only pointed on a bad habit.....when I read his reply, then I can read a lot of anger against people in the"west", and the word racist seems to come easy, be aware that to use the word to often, creates racists because none like to be called it... at least if they don't feel they are.
Ask yourself; when did the "western world" start to really oppose this "Forced Arranged marriage" Tradition?
It was after the big migration started.
The thing that happens is that those who migrate, bring with them their tradition.
When they then live in their "New Homeland", they are bound to live after the rule of this country, which again have its own Tradition, which they are proud of, and they might not like that their Country is connected to the use of "Forced Arranged Marriages".
It is not so easy to only say : "IT is done by immigrants", because then we must tell these immigrants that our culture don't allow such a thing!
Many, feel that their tradition stay above the law of the new country,and they might think; "we have had Forced Arranged Marriages for thousands of year, and none can say we can't do it!"
In order to change this attitude, we must change the source.
It is of little use to convert the view of one and one of the emigrants, because they look to home, and they will therefore have the "moral support" from there.
The best way to change this "Bad Tradition" (Which is a part of a much bigger and colorful tradition" is to change the view at home.
More and more countries will ban "Forced Arranged Marriages", more and more voices will be raised for its ending.
The faster this message can reach those who practice this tradition, the faster you save many a life, the faster you may avoid many a bad fate, both from those who practice it, and for those who are forced under it.
If projenator try to read any of my post, he will see that I haven't complained on any "people" at all...., I have only pointed on a bad habit.....when I read his reply, then I can read a lot of anger against people in the"west", and the word racist seems to come easy, be aware that to use the word to often, creates racists because none like to be called it... at least if they don't feel they are.
-
soulsearch
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:06 pm
Projji,
I do have to say you are all for justice ! :)
I do understand that living in a different country can be a daunting task not by appreciating for what the other culture stands for but for being doubted for what you stand for.
I moved from North of India to South of India and did face the same situation in work and home. Such things do happen ...surprisingly so!!! Speaking from personal experience it was a nightmare especially when kids are involved too.Add to that there was children's sickness, co-worker issues etc.
Our frustrations and anger started relfecting in our children and they started getting biased too. However once the adjustment phase was over I did realise that each society and culture has its positives. Once I started looking at the positives, the positives started happening in life too. The family has adjusted to this change so beautifully that it is really amazing.
I know this is not related to the marriage thread but things do happen within the same cultures too.
I too believe in Vedic astrology and WA of what little I know off. However you did mention that you personally would not go in for an arranged marriage.Any person coming in the forum for astrology advice regarding marriage can be told things as what the horoscope tells.However if the person is determined to get married then still the person can be told of pressure points in life without taking the initiative part from him. I feel that due to the lack of time and also it is a free reading forum the person can be given an added perspective.Whatever the native relates to he takes it and if not he moves on ( in that case the request was not genuine).I too am upset with the way certain senior members left the forum.In life its not about where you do not connect ( you will find those everywhere) but its about the few with whom you connect and stay for those.
Somwhere in the posts above, it was mentioned that for a society to function and grow, the negatives have to be addressed/removed and the positives have to be imbibed.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to understand the negatives aspects in marriages/cultures because that addresses the negatives part of the marriage...the reasons for not working....
There is this site of a A marriage counsellor that provided a fresh perspective.Sharing a little from his site.
I havent done research on this subject but with what little I have interacted with married couples in my country....I have seen this to be the case...viewing just the negatives in life.
Rhutobello Sir,
I agree with you...anything forced must be condemned and I am sure we all agree with you on the same.
Regards
MJ
I do have to say you are all for justice ! :)
I do understand that living in a different country can be a daunting task not by appreciating for what the other culture stands for but for being doubted for what you stand for.
I moved from North of India to South of India and did face the same situation in work and home. Such things do happen ...surprisingly so!!! Speaking from personal experience it was a nightmare especially when kids are involved too.Add to that there was children's sickness, co-worker issues etc.
Our frustrations and anger started relfecting in our children and they started getting biased too. However once the adjustment phase was over I did realise that each society and culture has its positives. Once I started looking at the positives, the positives started happening in life too. The family has adjusted to this change so beautifully that it is really amazing.
I know this is not related to the marriage thread but things do happen within the same cultures too.
I too believe in Vedic astrology and WA of what little I know off. However you did mention that you personally would not go in for an arranged marriage.Any person coming in the forum for astrology advice regarding marriage can be told things as what the horoscope tells.However if the person is determined to get married then still the person can be told of pressure points in life without taking the initiative part from him. I feel that due to the lack of time and also it is a free reading forum the person can be given an added perspective.Whatever the native relates to he takes it and if not he moves on ( in that case the request was not genuine).I too am upset with the way certain senior members left the forum.In life its not about where you do not connect ( you will find those everywhere) but its about the few with whom you connect and stay for those.
Somwhere in the posts above, it was mentioned that for a society to function and grow, the negatives have to be addressed/removed and the positives have to be imbibed.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to understand the negatives aspects in marriages/cultures because that addresses the negatives part of the marriage...the reasons for not working....
There is this site of a A marriage counsellor that provided a fresh perspective.Sharing a little from his site.
.By 1975, I had finally discovered why I and so many other marital therapists were having trouble saving marriages -- we did not understand what made a marriage work. We were all so preoccupied with what caused them to fail, that we overlooked what helped them succeed. Many marriage counselors, myself included, thought that a lack of communication was causing these marriages to fail. So my goal had been to teach these couples how to communicate, to stop fighting, and to resolve conflicts.....With this insight I began to attack emotional issues rather than rational issues. My primary goal in marital therapy changed from resolving conflicts to restoring love. If I knew how to restore love, I reasoned, then conflicts might not be as much of an issue
I havent done research on this subject but with what little I have interacted with married couples in my country....I have seen this to be the case...viewing just the negatives in life.
Rhutobello Sir,
I agree with you...anything forced must be condemned and I am sure we all agree with you on the same.
Regards
MJ
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projenator
- Posts: 711
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:43 pm
soulsearch wrote: However you did mention that you personally would not go in for an arranged marriage.
Regards
MJ
MJy,
wonderful post, appreciate you sharing those interesting life experiences. I will reply the rest later in detail. As for the above, i would request you to re-read carefully what i wrote in my previous post which I quote below once again for convenience
"nor will be my marriage arranged by my parents"
I don't think this means I personally would not go in for an arranged marriage. What I wished to convey was my parents have not given me the option of arranged marriage at all, doesn't it sound weird that I am from an Indian family, may be not to you but an average American is very surprised when I tell them. My chart clearly indicates anything but an arranged marriage, there are strong indications of marriage to someone from an entirely different culture, so my parents, especially my dad does not even try. My mom suggested a couple women which were proposals from family friends etc. that too about three years ago but dad has never suggested anyone to me. My family wants me to choose my own wife but they do counsel me and are open to discuss my choices. I have always been counseled to choose my gfs and wife more on similar values than caste, creed, ethnicity etc. They just don't want me to be exploited by women which has become pretty common in Indian society at our socio economic strata these days.
I will reply my abroad experience later but in brief, as i have often mentioned in my previous posts, I love America as much as I love India. I like the family/spiritual values from India while I appreciate the professional values, the innovation, the opportunities in US.
regards.
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soulsearch
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:06 pm
Thank You Projji for sharing your experiences.You are really blessed to have parents like yours.
Well my parents though had a love marriage of their own did not want their kids to have a love marriage. It was always their desire to go through the matrimonial site and look for a prospective groom.I could never relate to the same.
For a person who didnt look at the charts before marriage and not that it would have swayed my decision at that moment of time ..it really didnt matter. My Dad though hurt and dissuaded me ( as like all dads where every person is after their daughter) ...getting married became a task.But then somebody chips in life....who else MOM. ( reminds me of an astro article that I read that said that if you have a debilitated moon..then look around there would def be a person who has a strong moon)
However once you have children of your own you can think from both the viewpoints as a parent and the child. Not that having kids automatically transforms one to a parent.Parenting like childhood is all about growth.Heard the quote that when you think the children have grown up and left..the grandchildren come along.( hope all the grandparents are smiling )
I now can understand my parent's apprehensions but I am happy that he realised that more than me being happy it was the bringing up that mattered most of all.
It clearly shows that your dad knows you well. I am glad that you understand his reactions and are so adaptive in your thought process...and you are not even a parent.Definately an Air sign !
Thank you for letting me share !
Reg
MJy
Well my parents though had a love marriage of their own did not want their kids to have a love marriage. It was always their desire to go through the matrimonial site and look for a prospective groom.I could never relate to the same.
For a person who didnt look at the charts before marriage and not that it would have swayed my decision at that moment of time ..it really didnt matter. My Dad though hurt and dissuaded me ( as like all dads where every person is after their daughter) ...getting married became a task.But then somebody chips in life....who else MOM. ( reminds me of an astro article that I read that said that if you have a debilitated moon..then look around there would def be a person who has a strong moon)
However once you have children of your own you can think from both the viewpoints as a parent and the child. Not that having kids automatically transforms one to a parent.Parenting like childhood is all about growth.Heard the quote that when you think the children have grown up and left..the grandchildren come along.( hope all the grandparents are smiling )
I now can understand my parent's apprehensions but I am happy that he realised that more than me being happy it was the bringing up that mattered most of all.
It clearly shows that your dad knows you well. I am glad that you understand his reactions and are so adaptive in your thought process...and you are not even a parent.Definately an Air sign !
Thank you for letting me share !
Reg
MJy
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
Re: agree
As you said; That is Arranged marriage, and has nothing to do with :assi wrote:i would agree to an arranged marriage coz i trust my parents more than myself but i will of course have to know the guy pretty well
"Forced Arranged marriage", and the definition on it is :
Definition:
A forced marriage is a marriage that is performed under duress and without the full and informed consent or free will of both parties.
Being under duress includes feeling both physical and emotional pressure. Some victims of forced marriage are tricked into going to another country by their families. Victims fall prey to forced marriage through deception, abduction, coercion, fear, and inducements.
A forced marriage may be between children, a child and an adult, or between adults. Forced marriages are not limited to women and girls, as boys and men are also forced to marry against their will.
A forced marriage is considered to be domestic violence. As one of our readers (A.C.) pointed out, "From an international perspective forced marriage is considered a form of trafficking in persons and is a severe human rights violation."
Victims of forced marriages often experience physical violence, rape, abduction, torture, false imprisonment and enslavement, sexual abuse, mental and emotional abuse, and at times, murder.
“No marriage shall be legally entered into without the full and free consent of both parties, such consent to be expressed by them in person after due publicity and in the presence of the authority competent to solemnize the marriage and of witnesses, as prescribed by law.”
______
There can be many "FREE" marriages that contain the same elements, there might even be marriages that can be more "Hell on Earth" than those of the Forced Arranged Marriages, the big difference is that they have chosen to enter it of free will....no other can be blamed.
With Forced Arranged Marriages all, but those who go "unwilling" into it, is to blame, because they have forced, or allowed it to be forced, and carry all guilt.
It is no use to point to "Forced Arranged Marriages" that ended good, because it has no legal value, the weakest will still suffer, injustice sill done.
I assume, most find the thread finish as debate, so I close it.
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