Is there such thing as free will?

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Rhutobello
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Post by Rhutobello » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:03 pm

To tell the truth....no. I choose to practise my free will and not do what other tell me :)

Why?

All his statements goes against what I believe as fundamental, I have read the statement you gave that belong to him and none of them talk to me.

I try to keep an open mind (not possible if you follow his thoughts) but I need a spark of truth to investigate....I didn't find any that worked for me :)

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Sorrow
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Post by Sorrow » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:58 pm

He had Written those after a lifetime of work. He had written his philosophy on only 8 pages, he presented them in a radical way, that caused people to redicule him, because most is narrow minded....
Regardless is there free will or not watch that documentary when you have time, it will give you the clue.
I know much about him because I'm Serb too.

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Rhutobello
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Post by Rhutobello » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:18 pm

Sorrow wrote:He had Written those after a lifetime of work. He had written his philosophy on only 8 pages, he presented them in a radical way, that caused people to redicule him, because most is narrow minded....
Regardless is there free will or not watch that documentary when you have time, it will give you the clue.
I know much about him because I'm Serb too.
The man was great.....no one can take that away from him, but maybe he wasn't that great thinker.
If he still had lived under a totalitarian regime, that deny books, thinking, art, unions and so on...I could understand it....then the regime suppress the free will of it's people and make them into robots....but this is made with force and control.....not by birth.
But even under such condition will it grow a movement of resistance, which again tell about free will.

If managed over longer time such humans will become what he describes.

But....he lived in America....and he has not taken such limitations....the way I understand it he says mankind....or a human is born that way....and that is false in my opinion!

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Sorrow
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Post by Sorrow » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:47 pm

Not taken LIMITATIONS ? Do you know what are you saying?
He tried to provide free energy to the mankind, but point of existing of one capitalist is to earn money, so they destroyed him, they burned his lab, they did cut of people that financed him. They made people forget him, and there you are you have 63 years, and still you know nothing about Tesla's life, they did succeed in hiding truth from ordinary people... it just makes me sad...

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Rhutobello
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Post by Rhutobello » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:21 pm

Sorrow wrote:Not taken LIMITATIONS ? Do you know what are you saying?
He tried to provide free energy to the mankind, but point of existing of one capitalist is to earn money, so they destroyed him, they burned his lab, they did cut of people that financed him. They made people forget him, and there you are you have 63 years, and still you know nothing about Tesla's life, they did succeed in hiding truth from ordinary people... it just makes me sad...
Well I might be 63....and I might not know so much about Tesla.....but I did know enough to provide a link for him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

When you read that essay you can hardly say he is forgotten...I think they give him credit for a lot of his work.
On the other hand, to be good in one field are not the same as be good in another....
But it was not Tesla and his work we discussed...it was his view on free will.

As a last word I can say YOU have proved him wrong in his thoughts.
You have fight me....you have used your brain (good or bad) and you have used your will not to give up!

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Sorrow
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Post by Sorrow » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:04 pm

I've read almost all articles about Tesla on the internet, didn't you think that wikipedia is to obvious?

My friend, I obviously failed to illuminate you, perhaps you shall find illumination in the next life, karma will do its work.

We can argue like this forever, I can say that you are automation which is programmed to be ignorant and that fails to see 'the big picture' so you acted the way you acted, therefore there is not free will.

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Post by spiritalk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:17 pm

Life is choices...yes, there is free will.

ragun
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woa

Post by ragun » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:06 am

Woa!

What is philosophy question doing here on a numerology forum?!

You people need to go and do some reading on what the actual debate is like among philosophers. There is a lot more that what any of you have mentioned.

Chaos theory anyone?

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Rhutobello
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Post by Rhutobello » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:57 am

hehehe....well this is the General forum....so we allow such discussion here :)

Yea....there is many thoughts....heavy as well as easy.....as with anything else.

But in my opinion there is one key factor for "free will"....our brain.

If there was no free will....we would have no use for it....just a transmitter.

Since we all have a brain and we all act different (visit a kinder garden or a school class) we can't be control by repeating movements or doings, because we develop ourself true life.
In order to do that we must be able to collect, store, sort and choose (will)what to use.

Since it daily arise new inventions, someone must have thought on something that never have been there, they have to use their will to pursue new thoughts and be able to do so true several setbacks.

But,,,but...I am no great thinker....not even an inventor....I am just a person with some thoughts :)

ragun
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Post by ragun » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:07 am

i am not saying that we shouldn't have discussions like that here. I am just commenting on how it is totally strange to see it here.

That is, I just don't meet too many people who can talk about numerology/astrology and such orthodox debates like free will.

Not a negative comment, just a surprise. BUT I still suggest that everyone go and read some books or at some philosophy on the subject. It is really very interesting. Knowledge makes for a more interesting conversation wouldn't you say?

I mean why are we even at this site -- trying to improve what we know about astrology, numerology, ect right?

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Post by spiritalk » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:49 pm

I don't think that's why I am here!  What gave anyone that idea?  

Astrology, Numerology, Psychic, Tarot, etc. etc. are metaphysical and paranormal topics to be sure.  They do fit into philosophy and they are a valid read if you would like to broaden your book shelf.  

Philosophy is when it is unproven and yet valid in practice.

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Brother-Minos
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Post by Brother-Minos » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:27 am

Interesting input everybody....


Mlady Raka said: "In the end...perhaps free will is an illusion after all, (given the makeup of the human psyche)......and the only time free will could be considered a reality, is if we use it to commit a selfless act, an act from which we do not profit in any shape or form...nor expect to be rewarded in any way...

So free will manifested could perhaps then be defined as follows:  "When a human being decides consciously to perform an act without having been prompted/forced/influenced to do so by way of need, reason, emotion, logic or law."

Our free will therefore only pertains to IF and HOW we will respond to stimuli....since the human condition is such that not having stimuli to activate our thought processes, our emotions and our actions, we are non functional and cease to live and learn even though we exist.... "

Most times what we believe is our free will is not, so yeah an illusion; how many people admit their own ignorance to something, let alone about themselves? not many, and it's the first realization one needs to make in order to exercise freedom of any kind. In fact, we don't even know what a true act of will is, and we don't even know what freedom is, until we have worked long and hard to recognize our own ignorance, this is difficult because our personality is constantly lying to us. The catch here is that we need to lie to ourselves so as to not become emotionally unstable and even insane-the world all around us is a lie, but it too needs to be that way to be stable; and I mean nature itself not just society. The trick is to know what is a lie and what is not. And there's no easy answer in this, in fact there is no answer but there are methods. Methods from people who have come before us who have broken out of the automaton state and exercised faculties that they developed and most of us can't even fathom what these are.

Sorrow said: "I think that only man on earth who really got it all together was Nikola Tesla."

I agree that Tesla was a man of genius, but to say he was the only one I won't agree with; there are others, but perhaps this is the one who speaks to you. I know when we find a person of knowledge we are so enthralled we want to share it all with everybody, but the work he spoke of is very personal and we can ultimately only go at it alone in the first phases of it; there comes a time when we need others, but those others will find you in time; we just can't force people to adopt what we need, they may need something else in their life. But you implanted the idea of him and other impressions and that's all we really can do for each other.

Tesla said: "the workings of the man-machine are now perfectly clear."

Speak for yourself, Tesla, scientists are still unclear on many things, in particular our relationship with gravity and the pull of the moon on our waters- both internal and external to man and woman; not to mention dark matter-physicists don't know what dark matter is yet and what it means to humankind's make-up.. I can think of so many examples, but if the ones I mentioned sound weird, what about the immune system? why are some people living with hiv and never ailing from aids, and some people are ailing from it from the moment of infection. No, the workings are not at all perfectly clear. If they are, lets shut down every cancer research lab.

1. "The human being is a self-propelled automaton entirely under the control of external influences. Willful and predetermined though they appear, his actions are governed not from within, but from without. He is like a float tossed about by the waves of a turbulent sea."

I agree. This happens from birth, but some people do begin to evolve although it is very rare, and rarer still for a person to be evolved. Evolved means completely conscious of self, but also objectively conscious-these are the people who we Should be learning from.

2. "There is no memory or retentive faculty based on lasting impression. What we designate as memory is but increased responsiveness to repeated stimuli."

True mostly; how many of us have memory of absolutely everything that we have experienced? We only have a small reserve of memory and they aren't even all vivid; these are not lasting impressions either we can forget them. But is it possible to overcome this defect? For some people, yes it is, again these are the people who are a little more conscious, and a lot less automatic.

3. "It is not true, as Descartes taught, that the brain is an accumulator. There is no permanent record in the brain, there is no stored knowledge. Knowledge is something akin to an echo that needs a disturbance to be called into being."

I agree! Funny though, because Descartes saw everything as mechanical, yet Tesla disagrees to the extent of the brain's mechanical ability and makes it a much lower function- at least according to this quote but I suspect he doesn't really mean it like this, and this is probably taken out of context from a more well-rounded view. I totally agree with the disturbance needed to be called into being though. Nobody can change from machine if they are quite content with being a machine. Star Trek's Data was not content with being an android; it disturbed him to think he was missing something. We can learn from Data's yearning to change into another being.

4. "All knowledge or form conception is evoked through the medium of the eye, either in response to disturbances directly received on the retina or to their fainter secondary effects and reverberations. Other sense organs can only call forth feelings which have no reality of existence and of which no conception can be formed"

I would change that to "all INFORMATION or form conception is evoked through the medium of the eye....."

With all due respect, this is outdated language.

The faculty of "feelings" the most complex of them all. I have been shown that some emotions are real and some are not. We should also remember there's a difference between sensations and feelings, and higher emotions and lower emotions. Tesla focuses on the automaton here and that's helpful for us to recognize what that is; at the same time there's further outside the box. The Buddha existed/exists outside of that box, for example.

5. "Contrary to the most important tenet of Cartesian philosophy that the perceptions of the mind are illusionary, the eye transmits to it the true and accurate likeness of external things. This is because light propagates in straight lines and the image cast on the retina is an exact reproduction of the external form and one which, owing to the mechanism of the optic nerve, can not be distorted in the transmission to the brain. What is more, the process must be reversible, that in to say, a form brought to consciousness can, by reflex action, reproduce the original image on the retina just as an echo can reproduce the original disturbance If this view is borne out by experiment an immense revolution in all human relations and departments of activity will be the consequence. "

But it has been observed in experiment, and this has proven to be false. When did he write this? Science has since made leaps and bounds from this theory.


"What is philosophy question doing here on a numerology forum?!"

Numerology IS a philosophy.

Thanks for the read, everyone!

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Mlady Raka
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Post by Mlady Raka » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:25 pm

Great input Brother Minos!

love and rainbows

Raka

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Rhutobello
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Post by Rhutobello » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:44 am

In danger to make a fool of myself....or an automaton that have no other thoughts in my head, I will give my comments.

for paragraph 1

I wonder if we here get an blend of free will and the will of the community,
The will of the community makes you "into a tiny wheel" of the society you live in, you have to follow certain rules in order to receive payment, food,and so on.
In this case you might say you are an automaton of the society.
BUT if you want to give up the secure....move to a another place....live by other rules....away from mankind....no one will stop you.

Now you can say, in order to survive, you have to hunt....you have to drink....you have to sleep....ergo you are a automaton that have to do the same task every day to stay alive.......
Ludwig Holberg (1684-1754) wrote a play back in 1722 named Erasmus Montanus that dealt with conclusions of simplicity, from many of the learned student of the time.
It goes you take two known factors and put them up against another and from that you mace a conclusion.
His more known is how he makes his mother into a stone..since a stone can't fly and neither his mother they have to be equal and both be a stone.
Another funny one is....It's healthy to consume alcohol, because alcohol make you sleep and if you sleep you don't sin.

So my conclusion must be....in order to stamp us as automaton by looking at our behaviour, is the way of Erasmus Montanus....way to simple :)

2) Poor shrink....have anyone told them that they might stop what they are doing?
How do they manage to lead their patient back to childhood if there is no memory?
Has  anyone told it to the police, in every criminal I see, they always ask the suspect what he did way back, and if he don't remember they think he hide something.

Of course we don't go around remember everything, we learn, we sort and we use the collected information in such a way that only the important stuff is used.
Has none of you had an old grand pa as me....here we have a saying about old people... they go into childhood....they don't see as much what happen around them today but they remember each summer and good things from their childhood >70 years back

Well I shall not take them all....I just had to get this out of my chest.....if Tesla's ideas was so great, why do we hide them....why haven't any known scientist pursued this path....we are alway eager to explain the human.

As a last word :

Your statement : The eyes transmits the true and accurate likeness of external things.
This might so be.....but what your mind tells you might be different from human to human....what the picture tells each human is the information stored in our brain about that object....and if no information is stored....they don't know what they are looking at :)

-

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Mlady Raka
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Post by Mlady Raka » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:55 am

Having read what Rhuto said....(by the way great line of thought!....)

I can perhaps then make the following statement:

Choices are what life presents us with.... Free Will is what we use to decide how we will utilize our options....

Perhaps free will is just a tool in order that we may choose which chains will keep us in bondage  (tongue in cheek)....although I would rather believe that it is a special Gift bestowed upon us by Creator together with Love.....in order that we may learn what selflesness is.  With it comes great responsibility and when we use it right, wonderful blessings....

love and rainbows

Raka

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