Spiritual solutions to tensions and anxieties of life

Post your thoughts and views here.

Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123

dattaswami
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 am

Re: God is Creator

Post by dattaswami » Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:17 pm

spiritalk wrote:Yes, God is creator of all.  With human existence is free will choice.  It is based on natural law.  God does not have to judge us right or wrong...we do that for ourselves through the operation of natural law.  Yes, we will pay for our transgressions...but not as punishment, but as the operation of natural law....Law of Attraction, Law of Cause and Effect, Law of Opposites, Law of Polarity...just a few we have identified...so much more is in place for the outpouring of life.  The Law of Love is of course the most effective...it is the key to the universe.

Do we need to worship this creator?  Well, as part of that creation is within all humanity, we would end up worshiping self or another human being.  God is all!  The central source of all energies of life reside at that source.  We merely create our circumstances based on the spark of that
source.
spiritalk;

God alone knows God

Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think any thing, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. The form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries since the air or water has certain limits. You call the space as formless object. But the space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived. When you think God as awareness (Chit), the awareness is mind, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, the space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, the space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider the space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation. You are calling the object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries, which are imagined, as formless. Since, such formless object also is a form in strict sense. Formless concept is impossible.

Therefore, whether you say that God created the space or God created the energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy only. Veda said that Para Brahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah..). The Veda says again that Para Brahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo..). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of Science. However, let such space or energy be called as formless God in your language. Even to think such formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such concept in his mind for a long time. Even if you maintain such concept, such God is not the absolute God because absolute God is completely unimaginable as per Veda and Gita (Yasyaa matam…., Mamtu Veda Na…). God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute the God, who is beyond space and awareness. Veda says that God created space. Veda says that God is beyond awareness. The creator is always beyond the creation. Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist. According to Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this Universe as creator and is the material cause also. The pot maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of pot, the pot maker and the mud exist. Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the Universe.

The pot maker and mud exists even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, after the destruction of the world also God must exist. Similarly God must exist before the creation of the space and after the dissolution of the space. You can never imagine the situation, which is before the creation or after dissolution of space. Your intelligence cannot cross the special dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine the God. Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).

Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such imagination itself is an item of creation only. Such imagination is only the incarnation of the God. When you imagine Him as space, God has entered the space and God is in the space. Similarly, if you imagine God as all pervading energy, you have imagined the energy only in which God is present. Therefore, you perceive God as space or inert energy or mental energy (awareness) and such form of God is only the incarnation of God in the form of space or inert energy or awareness. This means you can perceive only the incarnation of God and never the absolute God.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

spiritalk
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

Of course we give God a Form

Post by spiritalk » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:13 pm

That is the ideal that makes all explanations of God a reality in human existence.  No one is right, no one is wrong.  All are striving to understand according to their own spirituality of growth.  Each will change their understanding as more information becomes available and is understood to apply to our thinking.

God is not a Pronoun!  God is spirit...formless and energetic.  It flows through all life as God is a part of all life.  Yes, we can understand the formless as energy.  After all, we acknowledge that electricity flows through the wires in our walls (even though we do not understand all the hows and whyfors of its existence) because it manifest through our appliances.  God manifests as many things in our lives.

dattaswami
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 am

God is with form or without form?

Post by dattaswami » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:42 pm

Spirit talk;

Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God.
Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space.

Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two.

It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells. Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption.

There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form. Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only.

A devotee asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. He should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only.

God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.

Suppose some parents requested the management of a school to provide a park for waiting. The management is capable of doing so and it is the earnest desire of some parents. Suppose, there are some parents who do not like the facility of the park. They should not object those parents who want to use the facility of the park. They should also not oppose the management in the construction of the park. It is the duty of the management to inform the availability of the park so that any parent who ever desires to use that facility can use it apart from those parents who requested for it. If this general information is not provided to all the parents, some may ask the management regarding their negligence in informing the parents. Similarly, God comes in human form based on the prayers of some top most devotees to give direct experience. Through the human body the experience is not only direct but also complete. Such experience is not possible in the formless worship or in the worship of the statues. Such worship of formless God and statues is only a representative worship. It is just like worshipping the statue of the king and not the direct worship of the king. When you break a coconut near the statue, you can offer it by waving the hand and then eat it yourself. But when we break the coconut before the actual king, the king is fond of the pieces of coconut and will eat the entire coconut. When you want to avoid such inconvenience, you need not worship the human incarnation. You break the coconut before the statue and eat it yourself. But there is a fellow who wants to really offer the coconut to the king. He is pleased only when the king eats that coconut. He feels happy by seeing the happiness in the face of the king, while eating that coconut. What right you have to object such person? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

spiritalk
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

God

Post by spiritalk » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:04 pm

This has truly swung from God as a human being to God as an energy.  No form is not intelligent examination.  Going from confusion to clarity is certainly a path of understanding...not the most secure or ultimate...but a path of intellectual awareness and understanding.

There is no one right answer.  Despite all dialogue in the end each will understand according to their own experience and growth potential.  As Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said it:

We are not a human being having a spiritual experience.  We are a spiritual being having a human experience.

In that human experience is all potential and possibility for understanding and wisdom.  We have to accept these stages and steps to enlightenment as a part of our journey.  No one has all answers...they will find they just have more questions.

dattaswami
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 am

Re: God

Post by dattaswami » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:01 pm

spiritalk wrote:This has truly swung from God as a human being to God as an energy.  No form is not intelligent examination.  Going from confusion to clarity is certainly a path of understanding...not the most secure or ultimate...but a path of intellectual awareness and understanding.

There is no one right answer.  Despite all dialogue in the end each will understand according to their own experience and growth potential.  As Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said it:

We are not a human being having a spiritual experience.  We are a spiritual being having a human experience.

In that human experience is all potential and possibility for understanding and wisdom.  We have to accept these stages and steps to enlightenment as a part of our journey.  No one has all answers...they will find they just have more questions.
spiritalk;

This entire Universe is objective because the Creator is the subject and the Creation is the object. Any item in the Creation is also object. The human body is the most convenient object. Through such human body only the Lord should be meditated upon and should be served. The subjective God (Creator) is beyond words, mind, intelligence, logic and imagination as said in Veda. Gita says that if one approaches the subjective God directly, he will end in misery (Avyakthahi Gatih Duhkham…). This verse in Gita means that the souls having human bodies cannot worship the subjective God directly because such worship leads only to misery. You cannot even imagine the subjective God. When the approach is subjective, the mind is destroyed as said in Gita in the above verse. Only the objective approach will give happiness because there is no difficulty in capturing the God through an object. Since you are an object, you can capture the boundaries of another object through your mind. Any object is within the four-dimensional space-time model. The subjective God is beyond the dimensions of space and time. When you try to capture the subjective God, the mind is unable to catch Him and undergoes lot of difficulties leading into strain that destroys the mind. But when you experience God through a human being you will not have any strain in capturing God who is identified with the object. When the subjective God is not at all experienced, how His characteristic sign, which is Bliss, can be experienced? You are not seeing the Sun directly and how can you enjoy the heat or light? Even if the Sun is not seen directly if an illuminated lens by Sun is seen, you are enjoying the light and heat atleast in small quantities in reality. When the Sun is completely hidden by the clouds, neither Sun nor his heat nor his light is experienced. Bliss is defined as the continuous happiness, which is infinitely intensive. You may mistake sometimes the temporary happiness also as Bliss. When you have not tasted the infinitely intensive happiness, you may misunderstand even a small shadow of the bliss (happiness) as bliss itself. Moreover, the bliss of yourself is not the highest goal. You must please the Lord and pleasing the Lord must be highest goal. Therefore, your experience of the bliss need not be necessarily the pleasure of the God. The Bliss can be obtained from materialistic things like drink etc. Only the divine knowledge followed by the divine love and bliss can give you the identity of the Lord. But once you recognized the Lord by the knowledge, love and bliss, your aim should be the service of the Lord through which the Lord must be pleased. In service you may not have the bliss or sometimes-you may have to face even lot of unhappiness. Jesus told that unless one detaches even from his life for His sake, he couldn’t be His dearest disciple. But you should feel all that unhappiness as your happiness if your unhappiness in terms of service pleases the Lord. You must have patient analysis and power of discrimination in the search of the truth. Your aim should not be the attainment of bliss but making the Lord blissful through your service and sacrifice. If this ultimate goal is realized, the soul gets the top most place in the heart of the Lord.

You have entered the heart of the Lord deeply through your proven love towards the Lord in the very first step itself. The Lord wants sincerely to hold on you in the path of the truth. The Lord does not want to use any super power in this matter because the path of the knowledge and devotion should be spontaneous, natural and real. The final result of the effort of Swami thus depends only in the power of your discrimination and on your patience to analyze in search of the truth. You will have firm faith only when the divine knowledge helps you as a fertilizer to germinate the devotion and also acts as a pesticide to remove worm like attractions and illusions of Saturn, who always tries to take away the sheep from the Lord like a wolf or a fox.

spiritalk
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

The objective word....

Post by spiritalk » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:31 pm

PATH.  Each of us has a path to seek and follow.  Each is right in their own path.  No one has all the answers for the path of others.  We cannot live for another, no matter how hard we try.  The learning, seeking, growing, progress of the spirit and spirituality is totally dependant upon self.  

What works for you has been written.  What works for me is yet to be written.  God is not stagnant.  He is a living, moving spirit in all life.  He keeps us in His care for growth, even when our humanness makes us seek.  He remains the constant in a world of discontent and discomfort.

dattaswami
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 am

Post by dattaswami » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:38 pm

Spirit talk;

Two people are going to attend an interview in Guntur from Vijayawada. The first person asked about the details about the train, purchased ticket, enquired about the platform and entered the compartment. He searched for the seat and since the seat was not available he traveled in standing position. The total time he spent for this one-hour journey was about ten minutes. Though he was not comfortable in standing, he spent all the fifty minutes in thinking about the subject of the interview. He never associated with the co-passengers because he has to leave the co-passengers in the Guntur station. He spent some money already in Vijayawada by selecting a teacher who can teach the subject of the interview. He served that teacher and the teacher was very much pleased and gave the details of the subject in depth. He spent a little on his personal livelihood.

The second fellow spent all the time in enquiring about the details of this one-hour journey and was always worried about the comforts during this one-hour journey. He also paid a little money to the teacher who knows the subject and requested him to go to the railway station and get a comfortable seat in the train for him. He spent more money on his personal enjoyment. Even during the journey he was thinking about the comfort of the seat only. He was waiting constantly for the upper berth and enquiring the person of that berth about the station in which he will get down, so that he can occupy that seat. Even though he is reaching Guntur by ten minutes he was not thinking about the interview. He was talking with his co-passengers and was developing friendship with them as if he is going to stay with them permanently.

Both the people got down in the same Guntur railway station. Both attended the same interview in Guntur. The first person was selected and spent all his life with full happiness. The second person was not selected and spent all his rest of life with full misery.

Similarly one person thinks very little about these materialistic aspects of the life and also talks very very little. He spends least time in discussing these things in a very brief manner. He spends most of his time about the Lord who is going to enquire him after death in the Pretaloka for ten days. He always thinks about the punishments in the hell and his future life cycles. He approaches a competent preacher who is non-else than the Lord Himself who came to this earth in Human form. He catches the Satguru and receives the divine knowledge from him. He becomes his servant by doing Karma Phala Tyaga (Sacrifice of fruit of the work i.e., money) and Karma Sanyasa (sacrifice of work). In such service he did not attend much to himself and his family. Due to that he lost all the personal comforts and also lost the comforts of the family.

He knows that these family bonds are only temporary which are like the association with co-passengers within one-hour journey. As every passenger gets down when the destiny is reached and separate from each other, one has to leave all these family members for ever and will not even remember them in the future births. Such a person completed this temporary human life cycle. He was very healthy and was blessed with good longevity by the Lord. He was poor and did not eat much and many items. Therefore no disease attacked him and so he was healthy. Due to his service to the Lord he was blessed with a long life which is meant for the service of the Lord. After death he went straightly to Brahma Loka without any enquiry. He was always associated with the Lord here as well as there and was filled with bliss always. This person represents the people of our ancient generations.
The second person represents the people of modern generations. He is always worried about this present life which is just one-hour journey. He always discusses with people about the comforts of this present life. He associates himself with the bonds of the family so deeply as if the bonds are permanent. He does not know that after death no body even recognizes none. He spends all the time only for the comforts of himself and for the comforts of his family. Even if he reaches the Satguru he will do a little Karma Phala Tyaga and Karma Sanyasa praying him to give more and more comforts in this human life. He is not at all interested about his fate after the death. He never thinks about the enquiry, the hell and his future life cycles. Even though he has reached the old age and is going to die shortly, he never thinks about the upper world and about his future fate. He is always worried about the life here only. He spends lot of time in discussing all the minute details of even a negligible point pertaining to this materialistic life. He does not spend even one minute for the burning problem to be faced after his death. He is enquired in the Pretaloka for ten days after death, he is punished in the hell and goes to the life cycles of beasts and worms etc., which is ever-lasting fire of hell.

I find several people who are always doing continuous conversations about very minute and negligible matters of the material life. They discuss about the purchase of the teacup or a spoon for hours together. They do not spend even one minute about the most serious matter, which is the scene after this life. This continuous thinking and continuous conversations and continuous association with the family members make him forget about the most important matter. The ignorance enters him and one becomes an embodiment of ignorance. The mango piece in the pickle-jar is fully pervaded by the salt, the oil and the chilly powder because it is constantly in association with these items in the jar. Therefore, Oh! Human beings! Awake from this sleep of ignorance. Think about your future fate after death. Think about the permanent settlement with bliss in the future, recognize the Human form of the Lord in your generation. Approach the Lord and receive the divine knowledge from Him. Spend very little time and little energy for the matters of this life. Realize that your life is only an hour journey. Note that all the comforts of this life are only in one-hour journey. Even if you have reached the interview board by travelling in first class compartment, that has nothing to do with your selection in the interview. You may not be selected even if you have traveled in the first class. A person who traveled in a third class compartment with less comforts may be selected in the interview. The selection in the interview is going to give you the permanent comfort. Therefore approach the Satguru to study the subject well for the interview. Don’t ask the Satguru to help you in getting more comforts during the one-hour journey. Always ask Him to preach you so that you can be selected in the interview. Only one will be selected out of several candidates who attend the interview. Therefore do not follow the majority. Gita says that only one in crores is blessed by the Lord (Manushyaanaam Sahasreshu).

_________________
ANIL ANTONY
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
http://www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

spiritalk
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

Again..

Post by spiritalk » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:44 pm

That is your path...God bless your understanding.  Do not try to tell others they must follow it...it is not right for anyone but you.  That is how individual the covenant is with the God of our own understanding.  

At some point in life we may be material..it is the necessary energy.  At some point we may be mental...live in our heads and plan for our future...it is the necessary energy.  At some point we may be spiritual...it is the necessary energy.  When we can combine and live in all aspects....body, mind, spirit...in a balance we have attained our spiritual, peace centre for growth and progress.

To live this life worried about where we will be in the next is not to enter all the experiences that will place us at our best possible potential level.  Use each and every experience...make it a part of your individual covenant with God as well as your own growth in spirituality...then, will God welcome you to spirit realms for eternity at the best place for your continued opening to more spiritual knowledge.

dattaswami
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 am

Re: Again..

Post by dattaswami » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:56 pm

spiritalk wrote:That is your path...God bless your understanding.  Do not try to tell others they must follow it...it is not right for anyone but you.  That is how individual the covenant is with the God of our own understanding.  

At some point in life we may be material..it is the necessary energy.  At some point we may be mental...live in our heads and plan for our future...it is the necessary energy.  At some point we may be spiritual...it is the necessary energy.  When we can combine and live in all aspects....body, mind, spirit...in a balance we have attained our spiritual, peace centre for growth and progress.

To live this life worried about where we will be in the next is not to enter all the experiences that will place us at our best possible potential level.  Use each and every experience...make it a part of your individual covenant with God as well as your own growth in spirituality...then, will God welcome you to spirit realms for eternity at the best place for your continued opening to more spiritual knowledge.
Spirit talk;

I can claim any belief. My belief does not necessarily please the Lord. Whatever was preached by Lord is important. That has to be followed. Because finally He is only going to bless us not belief. For getting His blessing, we should follow the path preached by Him.

Ex: If water is there in a beaker. I have a very strong belief that it is cold water. I put my finger and found it hot. Here, 'Water is cold'  is only my belief and need be true also. What is the truth here is that water is hot, which is opposite to my belief.

Truth is important not the belief. Truth is the one preached by Lord. True belief is the right one, which will be in line with the preaching of Lord. Will any father please with his son if his son does not follow any of his words? Likewise Lord comes down to preach the
divine knowledge and uplift the people. If we do not listen to him or follow His words, then we cannot claim that we have got devotion (love towards Lord). Lord is father of all the individual souls.

spiritalk
Posts: 6167
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

Which truth would you like?

Post by spiritalk » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:44 pm

This is merely your truth and that is the point.  Each path has its truth.  There is no altimate authority in either your path or mine.  Merely the truth that God imparts.

In the Kasidah Part IV:  All faith is false; all faith is true:  Truth is the shattered mirror, strewn in myriad bits, while each believes his little bit, the whole to own.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests