I used to be a foster parent dealing seriously disturbed and abused kids and I only ever had 1 child who, I would say, was evil.
For the main part we worked on the priciple that 'There are no bad kids, only sad kids', and this seemed to sum up their problems. They were the result of what adults did to them - absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Then I was listening to the radio today and there was a piece on it by one the Profs. who was instrumental in running the infamous Stamford Experiment.
He was drawing parallels with Abu Gaib and all the other unwatched prisons and the same aphorism springs to mind.
One of his points, going to Hitler and the Nazis, was that normal,rational humans never think of themselves as evil, their logic says they are doing good.
Before I rabbit on I'd like to throw the topic open;
'Given total power, are we naturally evilly disposed?'
I look forward to some ideas.
Very interesting idea.
The nature of evil
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Mlady Raka
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Dear Prof,
I will start by saying no... Humans are not naturally evil...they are naturally weak....
Anything the human does, whether it is under the auspices of "doing good" or "doing evil" is for the sake of self gratification and self assurance that they are "worth" something.
When man received it's Spark from the Great Consciousness, it was a perfect gift, containing Wisdom and all man ever needed to function in this Dimension. But the free will man received as part and parcel of this Great Consciousness...allowed him Freedom of Choice to tamper with what he received... He attempted to change /improve what was already a perfect Gift of Wisdom by searching for Knowledge... and when it blew up in his face...
(When one attempts to improve on perfection one can only cause the adverse to happen.)
Fear was the result and it became an integral part of his psyche....
He did not stop thirsting for Knowledge, and in the process he shut Wisdom out of his mind...because Wisdom became his conscience.... With each new discovery, Fear grows...
Take the discovery of how to make an atom bomb, by Einstein as an example... After he discovered the formula he was presented by his Conscience/Wisdom with the choice to destroy the information....he chose not to listen and handed the information over to those whose lives were ruled by Fear....They made this bomb and Einstein in retrospect regretted that he didn't destroy the information on it's discovery.....but it was too late.... Did that make him evil? No only weak. Were those who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima evil....no, but Fear was the driving force behind their actions and they were too weak to resist taking such an "easy" solution to a problem caused by more Fear, namely the Second World War.
The human being is the most weak and insecure species on this planet. It is the only species who needs to change its environment on a grand scale in order to make it habitable, because the human NEEDS to be in control. The paradox here is that the human also needs freedom, but it comes with the price of consequences and the pre-condition of Responsibility....in which case Freedom is not free.... It's an illusion.
Freedom to exercise Control.... Now there's a Paradox.... Who is free and who is in control? If we are under control we are not free...if we are Free it means we are IN control...but our need for Control is powered by Fear which makes Fear in control of us.... Can you see what I am getting at? No matter how we look at it... We are under the control of Fear and Power and that makes us prone to Evil. We are not born evil...but we are born Weak, because a long time ago...Man decided that the perfect Gift of Wisdom and Love he received from Creator, was not good enough and he wanted more....effectively corrupting Perfection and now this Weakness is programmed into our genetic makeup.
The human seeks Power...because with Power he thinks he is able to exercise Control (something he believes in his own distorted mind) so he can get rid of Fear....He does not understand that he is jumping from the frying pan into the fire... Power feeds on Fear so how will Power allow a human to rid himself of Fear by using POWER?
The more power grabs hold of a human, the more the human becomes paranoid. (It's a known fact that all Dictators suffer from Paranoia).
Power comes to the human through the portals of knowledge, experience and experiments leading to discoveries...but Power is not an attribute, nor a talent, nor a posession.... It's an entity.... Power cannot be posessed by any human...(their vessels are just not strong enough to contain it, and they become corrupted).
Power however CAN and DO posess people and Evil is the offspring of Power when it merges with Fear inside the human vessel.
Power is mindless, fearless and intoxicating and it's only aim is to control....at any cost everything it posesses and is surrounded with. When Power and Fear unites, there is a corruption in the mixture and Evil manifests....and Evil loves Power, because it gives Evil the ability to do exactly what it wants, when it wants and how it wants....
Humans are born with Fear residing inside them.... No human enjoys her presence, and is constantly seeking an agent which will get rid of her...but by choosing to seek Power in order to do so.....it is just putting a Wolf in charge of the Sheep...
Through Fear the human have learnt what to be wary of, what to avoid and where danger lies, fear has become a necessary part of the human psyche because of the world we created around her. But when she merges with Power, the outcome cannot be a blessed child....hence evil.
The human must learn to subdue fear and cultivate Love inside of him...and leave Power to the Creator... He is the only one that can control this entity.
Therefore....Evil is the result of the merger of an Entity called Power with the Fear it finds residing in the human psyche.
Therefore...Good is the result of the merger of an Entity called Wisdom with the Love it finds now dominant in the human psyche.
Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely...the result is Evil....
Men seek Power, because they need to Control.... as long as that is a part of human psyche....evil will always be present in this world....because
Man is weak.....yet too stubborn to admit that he needs his Creator.... He wants to go it alone.... and alone he shall be....
love and rainbows
Raka
I will start by saying no... Humans are not naturally evil...they are naturally weak....
Anything the human does, whether it is under the auspices of "doing good" or "doing evil" is for the sake of self gratification and self assurance that they are "worth" something.
When man received it's Spark from the Great Consciousness, it was a perfect gift, containing Wisdom and all man ever needed to function in this Dimension. But the free will man received as part and parcel of this Great Consciousness...allowed him Freedom of Choice to tamper with what he received... He attempted to change /improve what was already a perfect Gift of Wisdom by searching for Knowledge... and when it blew up in his face...
(When one attempts to improve on perfection one can only cause the adverse to happen.)
Fear was the result and it became an integral part of his psyche....
He did not stop thirsting for Knowledge, and in the process he shut Wisdom out of his mind...because Wisdom became his conscience.... With each new discovery, Fear grows...
Take the discovery of how to make an atom bomb, by Einstein as an example... After he discovered the formula he was presented by his Conscience/Wisdom with the choice to destroy the information....he chose not to listen and handed the information over to those whose lives were ruled by Fear....They made this bomb and Einstein in retrospect regretted that he didn't destroy the information on it's discovery.....but it was too late.... Did that make him evil? No only weak. Were those who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima evil....no, but Fear was the driving force behind their actions and they were too weak to resist taking such an "easy" solution to a problem caused by more Fear, namely the Second World War.
The human being is the most weak and insecure species on this planet. It is the only species who needs to change its environment on a grand scale in order to make it habitable, because the human NEEDS to be in control. The paradox here is that the human also needs freedom, but it comes with the price of consequences and the pre-condition of Responsibility....in which case Freedom is not free.... It's an illusion.
Freedom to exercise Control.... Now there's a Paradox.... Who is free and who is in control? If we are under control we are not free...if we are Free it means we are IN control...but our need for Control is powered by Fear which makes Fear in control of us.... Can you see what I am getting at? No matter how we look at it... We are under the control of Fear and Power and that makes us prone to Evil. We are not born evil...but we are born Weak, because a long time ago...Man decided that the perfect Gift of Wisdom and Love he received from Creator, was not good enough and he wanted more....effectively corrupting Perfection and now this Weakness is programmed into our genetic makeup.
The human seeks Power...because with Power he thinks he is able to exercise Control (something he believes in his own distorted mind) so he can get rid of Fear....He does not understand that he is jumping from the frying pan into the fire... Power feeds on Fear so how will Power allow a human to rid himself of Fear by using POWER?
The more power grabs hold of a human, the more the human becomes paranoid. (It's a known fact that all Dictators suffer from Paranoia).
Power comes to the human through the portals of knowledge, experience and experiments leading to discoveries...but Power is not an attribute, nor a talent, nor a posession.... It's an entity.... Power cannot be posessed by any human...(their vessels are just not strong enough to contain it, and they become corrupted).
Power however CAN and DO posess people and Evil is the offspring of Power when it merges with Fear inside the human vessel.
Power is mindless, fearless and intoxicating and it's only aim is to control....at any cost everything it posesses and is surrounded with. When Power and Fear unites, there is a corruption in the mixture and Evil manifests....and Evil loves Power, because it gives Evil the ability to do exactly what it wants, when it wants and how it wants....
Humans are born with Fear residing inside them.... No human enjoys her presence, and is constantly seeking an agent which will get rid of her...but by choosing to seek Power in order to do so.....it is just putting a Wolf in charge of the Sheep...
Through Fear the human have learnt what to be wary of, what to avoid and where danger lies, fear has become a necessary part of the human psyche because of the world we created around her. But when she merges with Power, the outcome cannot be a blessed child....hence evil.
The human must learn to subdue fear and cultivate Love inside of him...and leave Power to the Creator... He is the only one that can control this entity.
Therefore....Evil is the result of the merger of an Entity called Power with the Fear it finds residing in the human psyche.
Therefore...Good is the result of the merger of an Entity called Wisdom with the Love it finds now dominant in the human psyche.
Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely...the result is Evil....
Men seek Power, because they need to Control.... as long as that is a part of human psyche....evil will always be present in this world....because
Man is weak.....yet too stubborn to admit that he needs his Creator.... He wants to go it alone.... and alone he shall be....
love and rainbows
Raka
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Mlady Raka
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I don't think humans are naturally predisposed to do evil. I think we just do things, and other people perceive them as evil or good. It's the judgement after the fact that assigns the label, not the action. So what I'm saying is, we do not set out to do evil or good, we just act or react to a certain situation.
I for one don't wake up in the morning and say to myself, hey today I think I'll do something depraved and evil. I don't think anyone really does. And if they do, they might be mentally ill. But being sick like that, do they qualify to be truly evil? Is it evil to be a cerial killer, or does the mental illness excuse their deeds, not being able to think clearly and such. In such a case the loss of control of ones impulses leads to evil deeds. Would then control and power over impulses not have been the favorable setting?
I think power can corrupt, just as much as a complete lack of power. There are not as many things we as humans have control over. And losing control over our emotions and rational thoughts, can lead to detrimental results. But is that evil? Maybe it's weak, as Mlady had stated. Weakness is much more likely to be the source of all evil than power.
Power has been used for good, it isn't always set in stone that powerful people must be evil. To say that it automatically corrupts because we, as the people that we are, are not strong enough to wield power is perhaps a little too broad. Some people are in control and in a position of power and they are by no means evil.
Also, who are we to judge anyone. If I look into my heart, I can see no absolutes. I'm neither good nor evil. I just am. I simply try to do the best for me. That's all anyone can do really. Some days I do well, others, not so much. I've hurt peoples feelings in the past and probably will continue to do so in the future. Does that make me evil? Nope, but maybe a little too outspoken. Would I want to change the way I am to live up to a standard of goodness as set forth by someone else? The answer to that will always be no.
In closing, I guess evil is not some tangible thing that we can define as one thing or another. Evil has many faces, and many causes. I think evil is as much part of who we are as humanity as good is. But it isn't our defining factor, it isn't what sets us apart from the rest of the beasts. Evil is not the end all be all of what makes us human.
I for one don't wake up in the morning and say to myself, hey today I think I'll do something depraved and evil. I don't think anyone really does. And if they do, they might be mentally ill. But being sick like that, do they qualify to be truly evil? Is it evil to be a cerial killer, or does the mental illness excuse their deeds, not being able to think clearly and such. In such a case the loss of control of ones impulses leads to evil deeds. Would then control and power over impulses not have been the favorable setting?
I think power can corrupt, just as much as a complete lack of power. There are not as many things we as humans have control over. And losing control over our emotions and rational thoughts, can lead to detrimental results. But is that evil? Maybe it's weak, as Mlady had stated. Weakness is much more likely to be the source of all evil than power.
Power has been used for good, it isn't always set in stone that powerful people must be evil. To say that it automatically corrupts because we, as the people that we are, are not strong enough to wield power is perhaps a little too broad. Some people are in control and in a position of power and they are by no means evil.
Also, who are we to judge anyone. If I look into my heart, I can see no absolutes. I'm neither good nor evil. I just am. I simply try to do the best for me. That's all anyone can do really. Some days I do well, others, not so much. I've hurt peoples feelings in the past and probably will continue to do so in the future. Does that make me evil? Nope, but maybe a little too outspoken. Would I want to change the way I am to live up to a standard of goodness as set forth by someone else? The answer to that will always be no.
In closing, I guess evil is not some tangible thing that we can define as one thing or another. Evil has many faces, and many causes. I think evil is as much part of who we are as humanity as good is. But it isn't our defining factor, it isn't what sets us apart from the rest of the beasts. Evil is not the end all be all of what makes us human.
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Mlady Raka
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This was the kind request for Shafaq's attention to which he responded as being unwilling to type in english and his response I consider abrupt and rude. He will now find his Azerbajani written responses locked in Thread Jail.
Dear Shafaq,
Please type your response in English....so that everyone can understand what you are saying....
kind regards
Raka
Dear Shafaq,
Please type your response in English....so that everyone can understand what you are saying....
kind regards
Raka
Last edited by Mlady Raka on Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well put...
Well put emoshin.
I think that, first, we need to understand that good & evil are illusory constructs utilized by man to make sense of the world around us.
Some people are of the opinion that eating another human being is fine, as long as it is done according to the customs of the people. Other people think that this is an evil act of atrocity.
According to Baruch de Spinoza "Such things as please us, we denominate good, those which displease us, evil.". Thus, one thing that I may deem to be an act of good (i.e. taking the life of someone to defend my children) another may, & I'm certain some, if not many, describe that as an act of evil.
Of course, I could quote many various philosophers on ethics, but that would only serve to restate the issue as I perceive it.
Ultimately, good & evil are a matter of perception.
I think that, first, we need to understand that good & evil are illusory constructs utilized by man to make sense of the world around us.
Some people are of the opinion that eating another human being is fine, as long as it is done according to the customs of the people. Other people think that this is an evil act of atrocity.
According to Baruch de Spinoza "Such things as please us, we denominate good, those which displease us, evil.". Thus, one thing that I may deem to be an act of good (i.e. taking the life of someone to defend my children) another may, & I'm certain some, if not many, describe that as an act of evil.
Of course, I could quote many various philosophers on ethics, but that would only serve to restate the issue as I perceive it.
Ultimately, good & evil are a matter of perception.
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Mlady Raka
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- Location: Israel
Dear Waelwulf,
I believe that we need to make a clear distinction here between "perceived evil" because of cultural differences, and "True Universal Evil", an entity who was conceived when Power met Humans....
Name for me one Person in a Powerful Position... on this planet who acknowledged, displayed and used his Power and remained uncorrupted until his death...and I will show you a lie.
Do not confuse Power here with Inner Strength...these are two totally different concepts.
Inner Strength has been given to us in order that we may resist this entity...but most of us don't even know where to begin to find it...hence our weakness in the face of this enticing prospect of having Power...a dangerous delusion on our part.
The road to Power is paved with the bodies of victims.... (both figuratively speaking and/or literaly speaking).
Evil has a wonderful way of disguising itself as justified revenge... justice... necessity etc... and it is never without its promoters and advocates....
If it came to you open and exposed in its true form, you would never deal with it...unless deliberately. But wearing all these cloaks of disguise ...it makes itself more acceptable to the human justification system we call logic. If evil can convince you it doesn't exist...how in the world will you ever fight it...let alone take note that it has invaded and corrupted your space....
No Dictator has ever believed himself to be evil....but the whole world agrees that what these people commit are attrocities against humanity and this planet.
love and rainbows
Raka
I believe that we need to make a clear distinction here between "perceived evil" because of cultural differences, and "True Universal Evil", an entity who was conceived when Power met Humans....
Name for me one Person in a Powerful Position... on this planet who acknowledged, displayed and used his Power and remained uncorrupted until his death...and I will show you a lie.
Do not confuse Power here with Inner Strength...these are two totally different concepts.
Inner Strength has been given to us in order that we may resist this entity...but most of us don't even know where to begin to find it...hence our weakness in the face of this enticing prospect of having Power...a dangerous delusion on our part.
The road to Power is paved with the bodies of victims.... (both figuratively speaking and/or literaly speaking).
Evil has a wonderful way of disguising itself as justified revenge... justice... necessity etc... and it is never without its promoters and advocates....
If it came to you open and exposed in its true form, you would never deal with it...unless deliberately. But wearing all these cloaks of disguise ...it makes itself more acceptable to the human justification system we call logic. If evil can convince you it doesn't exist...how in the world will you ever fight it...let alone take note that it has invaded and corrupted your space....
No Dictator has ever believed himself to be evil....but the whole world agrees that what these people commit are attrocities against humanity and this planet.
love and rainbows
Raka
Is it even real?
Evil. I don't like the word. Don't believe in it. Too often a preamble to violence. And always a reference to someone else. Never us.
Ironic too that a word that assumes absolutes, is in fact relative, for evil posits both itself and it's opposite in the uttering; two irreconcilable ends of an imagined spectrum, each with it's own agenda hard-wired in and each one's relative position even creating the spectrum itself. A dramatic convention. A rallying cry. A pretext for war. A human invention. A circle. A trap.
Ironic too that a word that assumes absolutes, is in fact relative, for evil posits both itself and it's opposite in the uttering; two irreconcilable ends of an imagined spectrum, each with it's own agenda hard-wired in and each one's relative position even creating the spectrum itself. A dramatic convention. A rallying cry. A pretext for war. A human invention. A circle. A trap.
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Prof. Akers
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Hmmm. Not too may of you seem to know about the Stamford Experiment.
Simplified version. A group of students were divided up,randomly, into goalers and prisoners. A jail was built in the cellars and the groups took their assigned places. Within a few hours the cruelty level of the 'warders' increased and within days they were seriously abusing their former classmates. The experiment was stopped early because of fears that serious injuriry would take place. The goalers were both male and female, as were the prisoners.
Now you can argue black is white for as long as you want but evil exists (perhaps not 'biblical' evil but certainly human) and it is not gender specific.
Every case of child abuse, in the home, I have dealt with has involved both parents, either directly or indirectly.
Let's not get into the philosophy fo ethics because ethics have little to do with basic goodness or basic evilness.
I have known 1 truly evil child and several evil adults; if anyone argues against human evil then I envy their life because they cannot have one of these people.
Please carry on the discussion it is fascinating.
Simplified version. A group of students were divided up,randomly, into goalers and prisoners. A jail was built in the cellars and the groups took their assigned places. Within a few hours the cruelty level of the 'warders' increased and within days they were seriously abusing their former classmates. The experiment was stopped early because of fears that serious injuriry would take place. The goalers were both male and female, as were the prisoners.
Now you can argue black is white for as long as you want but evil exists (perhaps not 'biblical' evil but certainly human) and it is not gender specific.
Every case of child abuse, in the home, I have dealt with has involved both parents, either directly or indirectly.
Let's not get into the philosophy fo ethics because ethics have little to do with basic goodness or basic evilness.
I have known 1 truly evil child and several evil adults; if anyone argues against human evil then I envy their life because they cannot have one of these people.
Please carry on the discussion it is fascinating.
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Mlady Raka
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- Location: Israel
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Firetracie
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Power corrupts
Power does not corrupt. People corrupt people because they don't believe in love!
The Dahli Llama has absolute power over a certain sector of this worlds populace - he does not use it to exact vengance or to exercise his view of the way the world should be.
Ghandi showed the world the true meaning of 'power' - all you have to do is say 'NO' to that which you know to be wrong.
Mother Teresa also exhibited true power - with no personal desire or political agenda she effected great changes in the lives of those she touched.
And Why? LOVE! Simple, true, the only thing that is real is complete and total love. Evil does not exist, except in so far as we permit it.
When Eistein split the atom - he did not envisage its use. If there is evil in this world it is because we desire it!
The Dahli Llama has absolute power over a certain sector of this worlds populace - he does not use it to exact vengance or to exercise his view of the way the world should be.
Ghandi showed the world the true meaning of 'power' - all you have to do is say 'NO' to that which you know to be wrong.
Mother Teresa also exhibited true power - with no personal desire or political agenda she effected great changes in the lives of those she touched.
And Why? LOVE! Simple, true, the only thing that is real is complete and total love. Evil does not exist, except in so far as we permit it.
When Eistein split the atom - he did not envisage its use. If there is evil in this world it is because we desire it!
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Mlady Raka
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- Location: Israel
Dear Firetracie,
None of these people had power...they had influence....and all of them were humble people....
Their influence came because a Higher Power was working through them...They never claimed power from within themselves......
As far as Ghandi is concerned he had inner strength and was a very humble man....nothing to do with Power.
Mother Theresa would turn in her grave if she knew you attributed Power to her. She was one of the most humble people alive.
If you read my response to Prof. Akers thoroughly...you would see there that I talk about love and fear and the weakness of mankind.
love and rainbows
Raka
None of these people had power...they had influence....and all of them were humble people....
Their influence came because a Higher Power was working through them...They never claimed power from within themselves......
As far as Ghandi is concerned he had inner strength and was a very humble man....nothing to do with Power.
Mother Theresa would turn in her grave if she knew you attributed Power to her. She was one of the most humble people alive.
If you read my response to Prof. Akers thoroughly...you would see there that I talk about love and fear and the weakness of mankind.
love and rainbows
Raka
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