Some beliefs can help us, but..........

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Some beliefs can help us, but..........

Post by eye_of_tiger » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:34 pm

Some beliefs (all types of beliefs) can help us to grow and develop as both human and spiritual beings, and bring us closer together with each other.

But other beliefs can have a completely opposite result. Some beliefs can equally block us from fully growing and developing as both human and spiritual beings, and drive us further apart from one another.

I do not want this discussion to be purely an intellectual one.

In my opinion, we have too many of these already.

While abstract, philosophical and purely theoretical discussions do serve a useful purpose, many people have trouble relating to what is being discussed in them in their own lives. In other words, theoretical debates can seem impractical and irrelevant to many of our members.

1. Describe some of your own beliefs which you feel help you to grow and develop as a human and spiritual being, and why you feel that they do.

AND

2. Describe some of your own beliefs which you feel do not help you to grow and develop as a human and spiritual being, and explain why you feel that they do not help you.

AND

3. For those beliefs which you mentioned in your answer to question 2, would you like to change those beliefs into beliefs which do help you to develop and grow? Be honest.


AND

4. It has been brought to my attention that the same belief can either work for or against us. If you think that you have one of these ambiguous beliefs, please include it with your feedback.

Be kind to yourself,

Brian  Image
Last edited by eye_of_tiger on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Jayashree Ravi » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:52 pm

1. Describe some of your own beliefs which you feel help you to grow and develop as a human and spiritual being, and why you feel that they do.

These are some beliefs that help me grow further as a human and a spiritual being:

a. Belief in karma
b. Belief in astrology

The belief that "What goes around comes around" makes me do more good, and avoid the negative behavior or seek remedies for already performed negative deeds.

Belief in astrology gives 100% immediate feedback - once an event happens, I can go to my chart, find out which dasa/bhukti/antara and planetary transit phases caused that event, and see either negative or positive aspects of said planetary placements and be able to practically witness how it is all for real -- this increases my faith and belief in the divine and also take more faith in do-able and effective pariharas (remedial measures).  

2. Describe some of your own beliefs which you feel do not help you to grow and develop as a human and spiritual being, and explain why you feel that they do not help you.

Well, again it is 'Belief in astrology' - While I like the part about witnessing the influence and power of planets once an event happens, it is unfortunate to take the predictions of astrologers too seriously and keep procrastinating studies or performing something, because it is supposedly "wrong timing". World does not revolve this way -- we need to constantly perform actions and keep trying.

3. For those beliefs which you mentioned in your answer to question 2, would you like to change those beliefs into beliefs which do help you to develop and grow? Be honest.

Yes, I would like to not take astrological predictions too seriously -- however, they have a soothing and promising aspect to which many of us are addicted and thus am unable to give it up.
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:12 am

Dear Sister,

Thanking you for your contribution, which was both honest and well thought out.

You raised an interesting point when you said that your belief in astrology could either act for or against you.

When a good thing can be taken too seriously, or too much to heart?

That is something which I never to be honest considered when I planned this posting, but it does highlight the fact that the same belief can have a positive, neutral or negative influence on the person's mental state, depending upon the way that the belief is applied to everyday life.

I will therefore edit my original posting, to include this possibility.

Thanks for that!
The belief that "What goes around comes around" makes me do more good, and avoid the negative behavior or seek remedies for already performed negative deeds.
Yes that is a very common and practical way of stating what is in reality a very complex Law of Karma (universal balancing of effects with their associated causes, over multiple, and successive lifetimes). If this belief works positively in your life to make you want to do more good, avoid negative behaviour or seek remedies for already performed negative deeds, then all power to you.

But it does pose the question as to why we cannot choose to do the same things, without necessarily also believing in life after death and reincarnation. Can for example a person who does not believe in any of this (an atheist) still act morally? Obviously you and I are not atheists, but can you be an atheist and not believe in God or the supernatural, but still treat people as you yourself would like to be treated (the so called Golden Rule), without believing that Karma which requires reincarnation exists?

I once had my chart prepared by a professional Western astrologer who taught others, and the results and predictions were later proved to be uncannily and uncomfortably accurate. For some I did not get immediate feedback as the event took years before it happened as predicted. So while I have little experience or knowledge or interest myself in learning more about Western or Eastern astrology or giving astrology readings, I have great respect for those people who do some or all of those things.

However I cannot say the same thing about the daily horoscopes which can be found in magazines and newspapers, or online. I see them as a form of usually harmless entertainment, but too general and too vague to be of any real practical use in helping me to cope with my life's challenges.
Yes, I would like to not take astrological predictions too seriously -- however, they have a soothing and promising aspect to which many of us are addicted and thus am unable to give it up.
That is very honest. Many people are either unwilling or able to give up their negative beliefs for a similar reason. They serve another purpose, which makes us hold onto them when it when it could be healthier not to.

I would also like to before closing this posting pose the following question for anyone to answer.

Can a belief in Karma ever have negative consequences for the individual, or be used negatively with the intention to influence other people in a negative manner?

Thanks again for being the first contributor to my thread.

Namaste,

Brian  Image

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Post by Talia » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:33 pm

Hi,

I am in two minds about astrology, but that is probably because of my western upbringing. I don't like the idea that fate is fixed and pre-destined and can be exactly plotted and foreseen.
I have clients that are hooked on tarot and do nothing till they have turned a card, and that is not ideal either. Both taken to addictive levels are no good for the human soul.

Using paper or the wind and the stars and the moon I have no doubt we can 'see' things that could happen, but do we make them hapopen if we are told they will happen in a forecast? Do we head towards that point in time with the idea planted in our head, unable to see anything else?

Karma, well, that can be used as a threat and as a carrot. But karma can also be overcome and beaten and ameliorated.

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Post by Jayashree Ravi » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:46 pm

Talia wrote: Karma, well, that can be used as a threat and as a carrot. But karma can also be overcome and beaten and ameliorated.
Correct. Over the time period, good deeds performed accumulates and gives one the strength and merit needed to overcome adversities.
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Post by Jayashree Ravi » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:56 pm

eye_of_tiger wrote:
But it does pose the question as to why we cannot choose to do the same things, without necessarily also believing in life after death and reincarnation. Can for example a person who does not believe in any of this (an atheist) still act morally? Obviously you and I are not atheists, but can you be an atheist and not believe in God or the supernatural, but still treat people as you yourself would like to be treated (the so called Golden Rule), without believing that Karma which requires reincarnation exists?
That was thought provoking! Yes, I believe that is the reason why in certain faiths such as Christianity, rebirth and karma are not considered valid. While avoiding bad behavior amounts to 'goodness', avoiding it without any belief in karma amounts to 'greatness'. Also, when people are not believers of karma, they may be more at liberty to act as per their will and intentions. Lack of belief in karma may give them more "courage" to act out their will.

Karma gains in importance when considering challenging situations. When I am perplexed by negative thoughts or emotions, if I am not a believer in karma, I might act as per my wish. But believing in karma is like an invisible police waiting to punish me.

Both have their merits and demerits. But doing good without believing in karma is indeed great.

(Now I shall give more room to others for answering the OP and be a silent observer for sometime...).

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:41 am

What is the evidence that karma exists as a true doctrine? It is conveniently shaped as the general sense of morality and all that, but what if it is simply wishful thinking??

Not intending to offend or provoke emotions, but why do we need to stay moral and good for fear of some punishment meted by someone or some system that is the over-seer of billions of individuals through each second of their existence. Even in one average lifetime that would be 80 x 365.25 x 24 x 60 x 60 = 2524608000 seconds for each individual...!
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:37 am

but why do we need to stay moral and good for fear of some punishment meted by someone or some system
Dear Friend,

I completely agree with that.

Which is why I asked.....
Can for example a person who does not believe in any of this (an atheist) still act morally?
While some of us act morally it appears to avoid the negative karmic consequences, others can still act morally without the fear of or any belief in karma.

I believe that much of this fear stems from seeing karma purely as a system of punishment and reward, instead of what it is which is a balancing of actions and their associated consequences.

Brian

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:05 pm

I think one cannot rule out entirely the personal agendae of classes, groups, cohorts of homo sapiens sapiens who became the custodians of religion and morality at different times pretty much everywhere in the world and its diverse branches of human culture. The entire architecture of Karma and its propagation as an actual fact could be a mental construct of these powerful folks who might have an obvious conflict of interest in promoting such hypotheses, fitting as these may seem in the arena of divination and particularly its mercenary flavours  ;-)
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:49 pm

Dear Friend,

While I find your comments interesting and thought provoking, reincarnation and karma are only two of the many beliefs which a person can hold.

I do not want what is meant to be a general discussion about ALL beliefs to become a lengthy intellectual/abstract discussion about only these beliefs.

I would prefer (no offence intended) to keep this thread as simple and as practical as possible, so that members who are put off by lengthy philosophical or abstract discussions are encouraged to contribute.

We have a forum which is specifically designed for discussing such subjects at a much greater depth than what can be accepted on this general discussion board.

Reincarnation and Past Life Experience

http://mysticboard.org/viewforum.php?f=33

Thanks,

Brian  :)

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Post by RishiRahul » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:40 pm

All religions, or most, has given importance to re-incarnation. And we were to believe in it.
Of course, we can never prove it. Despite so many stories of personal experiences by extra or hypersensitive people.

Religions were created by master Philosophers and Leaders of societies, who devised or had to device ways to keep his society to be united, grow and stay together..... For which he needed families/familial bonds; which can only be strengthened through moral sense (also a subject in our early years).

As everything was created out of Neccessity' (even spelling' to maintain uniformity)....... Oops! wrong spelling....!

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:06 pm

Beliefs, by their very nature are beyond discussion, intellectual or otherwise! They just *are* and when a cohort of individuals happens to share those, it becomes a communal belief and communities can form and cooperative ventures can proceed bringing the community together and all that is good and essential.

The discussion, if any, should perhaps be around the thorny issue of What should be called belief and when does it become superstition...?
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:32 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:Beliefs, by their very nature are beyond discussion, intellectual or otherwise! They just *are* and when a cohort of individuals happens to share those, it becomes a communal belief and communities can form and cooperative ventures can proceed bringing the community together and all that is good and essential.

The discussion, if any, should perhaps be around the thorny issue of What should be called belief and when does it become superstition...?
I do not agree that you cannot have a practical discussion about your beliefs, and that is what this thread will be about.

If you wish to instead have a discussion around the thorny issue of what should be called belief and when does it become superstition, then I would ask you politely to post it completely separately from this thread.

I wish you well,

Brian  :)

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Beliefs (positive or negative) which you have about yourself

Post by eye_of_tiger » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:59 pm

I sincerely apologize if I have not made the topic of this discussion clear enough.

Just to help this discussion move along, the beliefs we are discussing here may be other than those of a spiritual or religious nature. I would prefer to examine the beliefs which you have about yourself, and how they can affect how you respond to life's challenges.

For example if you really believed that nothing that you can do will make any difference to what happens in the future, then you may ask yourself why you should not give up trying to improve things and simply accept that your future is entirely predetermined (and therefore cannot be changed). This belief if strong enough could lead to you become severely depressed, and lacking in any motivation to help yourself..

On a more positive note, what if you believed that you are worthy of being loved, and you valued and respected yourself accordingly? If you never treated yourself as if you were inferior to any other person ever again? But at the same time you did not believe that you are better than anyone else.

How do you think that such a set of empowering beliefs (beliefs usually work together with other beliefs) would change your overall attitudes towards life? Do you think that a person with such beliefs would be more or less likely to give up, when the going gets tough?

I am not saying that your spiritual or religious beliefs are not important or have no place here, but I also wish to expand the beliefs you each hold about ourselves beyond those which are of a spiritual or religious nature.

Beliefs (positive or negative) which you have about yourself.

How these beliefs can change your attitudes towards life and in turn change your behaviour.

That is what I wish to concentrate upon in this discussion.

Including, but not confined to your spiritual or religious beliefs.

Thank you everyone,

Brian

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:19 am

If I may suggest, Brian, perhaps defining what constitutes belief within the boundaries-framework of your thread might be helpful. As we all perhaps know -- at least such is my belief :-)  -- the framework-perspective generally defines experiential reality. And perhaps in this instance rather than relying on Wikipedia definitions etc voicing in your own words might be a good start. This might bring more clarity in the discussion. Particularly since belief can embrace the most concrete to the utmost abstract thing, phenomenon, etc. For instance, the belief that a certain wild berry is poisonous could illustrate the concrete end, whereas the sky and beyond might represent the abstract ultima or at least closely so...?
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