Forced reincarnation?

Do u believe in rebirth or reincarnation? Do u believe in Past Life Experience? Discuss and Know more about it here

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Sunrise
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Forced reincarnation?

Post by Sunrise » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:40 pm

Is a spirit ever forced to reincarnate? If so, then how can it be said that that spirit has "free will"?

The reason I ask is that I've been reading literature on the near-death experience for many years, and have encountered numerous times a scenario in which the spirit of the person who had died physically was told that, if it chose to stay in the Light, it would "have" to reincarnate later.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this picture? That is to say, does this not contradict both the idea that we have "free will" and the notion that -- except for having to experience our negative actions through the eyes of others during our life review -- we aren't "punished" for things we do wrong on Earth?

Angel1
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Post by Angel1 » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:57 pm

The reason and purpose of reincarnation is our spiritual education and development. When we were still very young not knowing any better, our parents forced us to enroll in a school. Gradually over time, most of us learned the value and advantages of continuing with a formal education. A few however opted to drop out of school. But further into our future, we saw how those who pursued their studies were able to obtain to better positions and better living conditions while those who did not graduate were consigned to menial jobs and a life of poverty, suffering and want.  

It is the same in regard to the life in the spirit, in the World of Reality. Because we seek to advance and evolve, we choose to reincarnate voluntarily. Before we are even born into the world, we confer with our spirit guides, the Lords of Karma, for the purpose of formulating a plan of life -- our fate and destiny. Every situation, condition and experience that comes to us were first pre-approved by us. There before our birth here is where we exercise our free will. Many of us are unable to recall those defining moments in the Spirit World. Our non-remembrance often causes our frustrations and disappointments in life. But all of life is an opportunity for our continued spiritual progress. We have no cause to complain.

For more on this subject, you might want to check out:

http://www.innerquest.org.ph/secretsoft ... nkarma.htm

Sunrise
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Post by Sunrise » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:08 pm

Angel1 wrote:Because we seek to advance and evolve, we choose to reincarnate voluntarily. Before we are even born into the world, we confer with our spirit guides, the Lords of Karma, for the purpose of formulating a plan of life -- our fate and destiny. Every situation, condition and experience that comes to us were first pre-approved by us. There before our birth here is where we exercise our free will. Many of us are unable to recall those defining moments in the Spirit World. Our non-remembrance often causes our frustrations and disappointments in life. But all of life is an opportunity for our continued spiritual progress. We have no cause to complain.
A torture victim has no cause to complain? A rape victim has no cause to complain? A concentration camp victim has no cause to complain?

Sorry, but that just doesn't pass the smell test for me. In fact, it sort of sounds like the logical flip side of the ancient "divine right to rule" concept; only in this case it's the divine- or "higher self"-imposed obligation to let criminal psychopaths have their way with you (because you "pre-approved" the harm they inflict). How utterly convenient for the Adolph Hiter's of the world.

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jld
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Post by jld » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:31 pm

The only way I think there is forced reincarnation, constant recycling, is in fact for those dark spirits like Hitler. Maybe in cases like his, the spirit doesn't get to decide his life lessons and have guides to help him and his whole purpose is to try and destroy the light. We do seem to learn the most from negativity rather than positive experiences.

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Post by Angel1 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:39 am

The key to understanding is in first realizing who we really are, our true nature. We are not our physical body.

Those who want to understand should now begin to think as God thinks. Think Spirit!

Then the mysteries can unravel. We will be able to know our real purpose in being born. We can then proceed more purposely towards the attainment of our true objectives.
Angel
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Sunrise
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Post by Sunrise » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:04 am

Angel1 wrote:The key to understanding is in first realizing who we really are, our true nature. We are not our physical body.

Those who want to understand should now begin to think as God thinks. Think Spirit!

Then the mysteries can unravel. We will be able to know our real purpose in being born. We can then proceed more purposely towards the attainment of our true objectives.
I asked very specific questions in my last post. The above generalities -- while perhaps comforting to some -- do not even come close to answering those questions.

Angel1
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Post by Angel1 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:26 am

The explanations are long and involved. I suggest that everyone check out the link I posted. I assure you, All your questions are answered there. Afterwards, we can take up all your other specific questions, one at a time.

http://www.innerquest.org.ph/secretsoft ... nkarma.htm

You don't have to agree to anything. Just give it some thought.
Angel
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kurukulla
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Post by kurukulla » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:16 pm

i have never assumed that reincarnation was not forced.  it is true we are not these bodies we wear.  what makes up what we usually think of as being ourselves is a collection of various elements (ie: form, sensation, emotion, thought, and consciousness)  when we die these things scatter and are reborn.  for example your physical form decomposes and becomes part of the ecosystem.  its all very lion kingish.  the consciousness though seeks out a new body.  due to deep seeded craving and desire for a family, a home, a body.  the consciousness is forced back into a new life.  this is not good as this existence in all of its various forms is not our natural state.  life as we know is filled with sickness, suffering, loss, the pain of being separated from loved ones, the pain of being joined with those we don't care for, etc.  

one could argue that life is filled with beauty and wonderful things.  this is true.  this very human existence is exceedingly rare and precious.  none the less our lives are still filled with suffering.  

rebirth is the law we are forced under by the deep karmic seeds in our consciousness but it is not the extent of who we are or what we are capable of experiencing.  

of course this is all a very buddhist understanding of it and i'm sure many will disagree.  but variety is one of those things that does make life beautiful :)

kurukulla

Brooklynluv
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forced reincarnation

Post by Brooklynluv » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:03 am

Reincarnation is not a force that negates free will. When those people were told that they would have to reincarnate later, who was it that told them that? No one has control over you but yourself. It is free will that keeps us moving in this cycle of birth, death and rebirth. Reincarnation is just a part of that cycle, a cycle that each of us has agreed to coexist with. Once someone has completed all the things that they came here to do they can ascend into another type of cycle. Just because something external is forced upon someone does not mean that their free will has been compromised. Everyone always has a choice as to how they will react to a situation.
And who's notion is it that we will not be punished for things we do wrong on Earth? What makes us so special that we don't have to face the consequences of our actions, our choices. We think judgment is something that takes place in heaven or somewhere outside the body when in fact judgment takes place inside ourselves, every day. We are responsible for every thought, feeling and action we have.

KASATSA
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reincarnation is always without our will

Post by KASATSA » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:22 pm

There are 84,00,000 species of life and we as spirit soul are continuously moving in them . The form to be taken next depends on our last thought at time of death and our karma's in previous life. Hence there is no question of any choice. The choice is prior to death, that we train our senses and mind in such a way that we are able to remember "Supreme Personality of Godhead " at time of death, so that we reach him in GOLOKA and not move in cycle of birth and death .

Sunrise
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Post by Sunrise » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:19 pm

Angel1 wrote:The explanations are long and involved. I suggest that everyone check out the link I posted. I assure you, All your questions are answered there.
Sorry, but that link begs far more questions than it "answers."
Angel1 wrote:http://www.innerquest.org.ph/secretsoft ... nkarma.htm

You don't have to agree to anything. Just give it some thought.
It actually claims that God "approves" of such things as "poverty," "injustice," and, of course, "war."  

What a sad, pathetic world the author of that essay must live in, to believe that God -- who presumably "loves" us -- "approves" of all these horrible things. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but to me that is no less ridiculous than saying that Hitler "loved" the Jewish people or that Mother Teresa "hated" the poor, and no less Orwellian than saying "war is peace" or "freedom is slavery."

I can see now why you avoided giving straight answers to the yes-or-no questions I asked concerning whether or not torture victims, rape victims, and concentration camp victims have "cause to complain."

Asserting that God "approves" of such things -- and that said victims have "no cause to complain" -- may, in the eyes of some, constitute "wisdom." But in the eyes of me and I suspect many others, it amounts to nothing more than a sick, disgusting joke dressed up to look like "spirituality."

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you urged me to give that link some thought, and those are my honest thoughts on the matter.
Last edited by Sunrise on Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Angel1
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Post by Angel1 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:25 pm

In our own studies, we understand that we incarnate in order to avail of the special opportunities available on earth for soul growth. We don't see any advantage to returning as lower forms (animals) of life. Instead, once we reach the stage of humans, we continue on as humans and higher.  

Through the ages culminating in our age and time, the teaching on reincarnation and karma have themselves evolved in accordance with our growing capacity to understand higher concepts and teachings.

The Hindus believe in Transmigration which teaches that the spirit entity returns in a form, animal or human, which is determined by the desires and attitudes of the spirit, itself, at the time of its death. Buddhism, however, confines reincarnation to the human form. Theosophy teaches that souls develop progressively upward. Evolved group souls of plants move on to become the group souls of animals. After animal evolution, the group souls become individualized as humans.

Karma is the corollary law that governs the causes and effects that manifest in every life. They allow for the provisioning of the very opportunities we need to develop ourselves, spiritually. They are the necessary practical exercises and applications that will prove all the theoretical teachings.
Angel
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Angel1
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Post by Angel1 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:52 pm

Hello Sunrise and everyone,

I understand your difficulty and appreciate your honesty. You are in good company. You think pretty much the same way that so many others think. So I must reiterate my first reply:

The key to understanding is in first realizing who we really are, our true nature. We are not our physical body.

Those who want to understand should now begin to think as God thinks. Think Spirit!

Can anything happen that God does not approve of? Is He not all-powerful, loving and wise? Don't you think it more reasonable that at our present stage of development, we are just unable as yet to fully understand his reasons why? But we can begin to learn.

Who are we? What are we? In times of poverty, injustice, war, rape, torture and murder, what is harmed? What benefits. And what is the benefit? In death, do we die? Or do we live again in the Real World? Which then is the real us?

How can we learn if we don't experience? Can we learn from books alone or from the experiences of others? The mystics tell us that we live in a world of illusion. But why are we here if not to learn and develop ourselves?

To many, these explanations are introduced for the first time. It is normal and natural to reject them. Whatever are not understand will be taught, again and yet, again. We will be provided all the necessary experiences and to those who have proven themselves worthy, the Truth will always reveal itself in the end.

Regardless, in line with our God-given free will, everyone is free to believe as he chooses.
Angel
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Sunrise
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Post by Sunrise » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:57 pm

Angel1 wrote:Hello Sunrise and everyone,

I understand your difficulty and appreciate your honesty. You are in good company. You think pretty much the same way that so many others think. So I must reiterate my first reply:
While continuing to avoid giving straight answers to the yes-or-no questions I raised concerning that "reply." That's not a real reply; it's an evasion dressed up to look like a reply.
The key to understanding is in first realizing who we really are, our true nature. We are not our physical body.
Tell a torture victim that. Tell a rape victim that.
Those who want to understand should now begin to think as God thinks. Think Spirit!
Tell starving Third World peasants to "think spirit." I'm sure that'll make them forget all about their hunger pains.
Can anything happen that God does not approve of?
Why not pose that question to the parents of a child who was kidnapped and brutally raped and murdered? (Now I understand why so many people become atheists.)
Is He not all-powerful, loving and wise?
This is what's known as a "yes-or-no" question. And my answer to that question is "yes." See how easy that is?
Don't you think it more reasonable that at our present stage of development, we are just unable as yet to fully understand his reasons why?
That merely begs the very question at issue -- whether God in fact "approves" of things like proverty, injustice and war in the first place. I don't see anything "reasonable" about pretending there is no obvious, fundamental difference between (a) "approving" of people's freedom to learn from their own mistakes and (b) "approving" of the mistakes themselves.
To many, these explanations are introduced for the first time. It is normal and natural to reject them.
It is normal and natural to reject a statement like 2+2=5, too. But not because of spiritual ignorance, but because the statement itself is simply and self-evidently false. Feel-good mantras (such as "think spirit") don't make it true.
Regardless, in line with our God-given free will, everyone is free to believe as he chooses.
As evidenced by those choosing to believe -- usually from the comfort of their armchairs -- that the God of "love" looks on "approvingly" as His children are victimized over and over again by brutal acts of "hate," and that the victims of such acts have "no cause to complain."

Those who espouse beliefs of this kind are, in my view, no less sad and pathetic than child abuse victims who've "learned" to equate being beaten with being "loved," and no less disturbing than witnesses to such abuse who not only refrain from intervening, but look on with an air of indifference or, worse, "approval."

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Post by Angel1 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:21 pm

No doubt, many of you are inclined to this same trend of thought. So was Peter. But Jesus knew differently. Don't listen to me. Listen to Jesus.

From: http://message-made-plain.blogspot.com/ ... sages.html #16

MT 16:21.23

From then on, Jesus began to speak plainly to his disciples about his going to Jerusalem and the fate that awaited him there at the hands of the Jewish leaders — that he would be killed and that on the third day, he would be raised to life again. But Peter took him aside to remonstrate with him. "God forbid it, Lord!" he said. "That must never happen to you."

Jesus turned on Peter and said, "Get away from me, Satan. You are an abomination in my sight because you look at things only from the worldly point of view and not from God’s."
Angel
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