JYOTISH? A SCIENCE?? HMM...!.......... RohiniRanjan

[Rohiniranjan]

Okay -- this forum is getting too serious and needs some acid meeting some alkali (nothing more dangerous than adding lime juice to baking powder (sodii bi carb)!

Both of you, Rishi and Hemal have called Astrology/Jyotish as SCIENCE.

Can you (without feeling offended and personally attacked!) explain to me why or how Jyotish can be justified as being a science. Use comparisons with other accepted sciences, if you wish.

And one clear indication of neither of you taking personal offense to my mild challenge in this posting would be: You would not question me back and ask what I think Jyotish is!

I think I have already written that very elaborately in many places, including this board!

This is not an exam and certainly not an open book exam! No exam where soul-searching is involved ever is!

Regards

RR



[quote="RishiRahul"][quote="hemal_bhach"][quote="RishiRahul"][quote="hemal_bhach"][quote="RishiRahul"]The only thing where moon with Rahu Ketu axis helps to contribute/act as a catalyst in regard to foriegn travels is that:=

Rahu= foreign influence. Moon=mind.

A thought.

RishiRahul[/quote]

Rahulji,

Yes I agree to your logic, but personally I feel that its the foreign influence or craze on the mind of jatak, whcih is of dominance if there is Rahu-moon conjunction, howveer, if there are other right combinations related to right houses, of foreign travel/residence, it becomes fulfilment of wish, or else would lead to great frustration/depression..because as such those with rahu-moon conjunct, areprone to depressive tendencies.[/quote]


Dear Hemal,

That is precisely what I meant and was tryng all the way to mean. It is great to know that there are some serious astrologers around willing to accept and give.

RishiRahul
Thank you[/quote]

Thanks Rahulji,

At times I ahev noted that, two persons think same way, but expression is different, and takes time to actually know the mind..

I love and accept Astrology as a science and is my great hobby too, learning and analysing this amazing science.  As such, its not my profession, because I am a chemical engr with management degree, and have my own business/factory with worldwide exports...

Best regard.

Hemal[/quote]



Hello Hemal,

The difference.

I love and accept Astrology as a science and is my great hobby too over 26 years, learning and analysing this amazing science.

I have my career too (not astrology), a full time one, where I am involved in man management and public relations, dealing with the elite, and also the lowest levels... which aids my learning of humans.

Astrollogy study even as a profession is my pasion.

RishiRahul[/quote]

[hemal_bhach]

Okay -- this forum is getting too serious and needs some acid meeting some alkali (nothing more dangerous than adding lime juice to baking powder (sodii bi carb)!

Both of you, Rishi and Hemal have called Astrology/Jyotish as SCIENCE.

Can you (without feeling offended and personally attacked!) explain to me why or how Jyotish can be justified as being a science. Use comparisons with other accepted sciences, if you wish.

And one clear indication of neither of you taking personal offense to my mild challenge in this posting would be: You would not question me back and ask what I think Jyotish is!

I think I have already written that very elaborately in many places, including this board!

This is not an exam and certainly not an open book exam! No exam where soul-searching is involved ever is!

Regards

RR

Dear RR,

a small presentation of logic.  Its a well known and accepted fact that there are nigh tide and low tide seen all over, during full moon/no moon periods, respectively. Moon which is just a satellite of earth, influences so such an extent on water.  Our human body constitues , maximum of water, so definitely, all these grahs , would have some influence on our body/mind, which is just matter?....The movemnts of these grahs, is studies, and mathematically fixed.  Various predictions are also made climatically based on this movements...Hence this is definitely a science.

Now analysis, and prediction based analysis, is based on knowledge of this science, and certain fixed concepts/postulates, whcih have come from our rishis, ..

I invite all learned forum here, to just not go into acid/alkali/salt...or litmus test...But prove that this is a science...and analysis is based on this science.

Hemal

The only thing where moon with Rahu Ketu axis helps to contribute/act as a catalyst in regard to foriegn travels is that:=

Rahu= foreign influence. Moon=mind.

A thought.

RishiRahul

Rahulji,

Yes I agree to your logic, but personally I feel that its the foreign influence or craze on the mind of jatak, whcih is of dominance if there is Rahu-moon conjunction, howveer, if there are other right combinations related to right houses, of foreign travel/residence, it becomes fulfilment of wish, or else would lead to great frustration/depression..because as such those with rahu-moon conjunct, areprone to depressive tendencies.

Dear Hemal,

That is precisely what I meant and was tryng all the way to mean. It is great to know that there are some serious astrologers around willing to accept and give.

RishiRahul
Thank you

Thanks Rahulji,

At times I ahev noted that, two persons think same way, but expression is different, and takes time to actually know the mind..

I love and accept Astrology as a science and is my great hobby too, learning and analysing this amazing science.  As such, its not my profession, because I am a chemical engr with management degree, and have my own business/factory with worldwide exports...

Best regard.

Hemal

Hello Hemal,

The difference.

I love and accept Astrology as a science and is my great hobby too over 26 years, learning and analysing this amazing science.

I have my career too (not astrology), a full time one, where I am involved in man management and public relations, dealing with the elite, and also the lowest levels... which aids my learning of humans.

Astrollogy study even as a profession is my pasion.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="hemal_bhach"]Dear RR,

a small presentation of logic.  Its a well known and accepted fact that there are nigh tide and low tide seen all over, during full moon/no moon periods, respectively. Moon which is just a satellite of earth, influences so such an extent on water.  Our human body constitues , maximum of water, so definitely, all these grahs , would have some influence on our body/mind, which is just matter?....The movemnts of these grahs, is studies, and mathematically fixed.  Various predictions are also made climatically based on this movements...Hence this is definitely a science.

Now analysis, and prediction based analysis, is based on knowledge of this science, and certain fixed concepts/postulates, whcih have come from our rishis, ..

I invite all learned forum here, to just not go into acid/alkali/salt...or litmus test...But prove that this is a science...and analysis is based on this science.

Hemal
/quote]

Dear Respondants/Participants,

First thing I learned in my chemistry lab on day one! Keep your workbench clean and uncluttered! So, I removed all the other messages from Hemal Bhach's response so that we can focus on what he provided as the starter thought/response to my question to him and Rishi: Please elaborate why you call astrology/jyotish a science?

His response was Moon and Tides (well known and often misused as a logical explanation to prove astrology's mechanistic underpinnings). My rebuttal to why the *logic* is flawed, follows!

Unlike the OCEAN which is one large confluent body of water and salts, the human (or animal or plant) body is not confluent! It is divided into billions and billions of cells! Visualize this: If the OCEAN were compartmentalized into similiar billions and trillions and quadrillions (given the relative size difference between say a human body and the OCEAN!) of cells with membranes separating the packets of water and salt, do you really accept and expect that the compartmentalized ocean would have had such huge tides?

I am sorry but this moon-ocean-water theory that has been flaunted around for some decades <just> DOES NOT HOLD WATER!

Two good 'scientific' books that one must read are the one by Eysenck and Nias (Astrology, science or superstition) and Percy Seymore's book that describes his switching/trigger magnetic theory! <www.google.com> or ask me if you are really interested)

In these books are described the evidence and data which indicate that the cumulative gravitational force of the birthing team is magnitudes higher than that of all planets combined (including the transsaturnines!)! And quite frankly that seems to make sense at least in cases of caesarian births where the modern surgeon's golf game sessions often dictates the birth times of planned C-sections! THINK about that, very scientifically! The good old inverse square law that Namjoshiji tried to hammer into my class! This LAW is why moon which is just a small satellite of the earth (compared to the masses of jupiter or saturn for instance) exerts more influence on the OCEAN because of its proximity, but no match for the birthing team that is smaller but so much closer!

By the above tokens, moon (which exerts the tangible tidal effect!) should ALONE be significant in jyotish charts for consideration and not the other planets which are magnitudes weaker! Why do we still need them for our jyotish work? I have tried using moon and lagna alone and over a large sample it just turns into an eclipsed hypothesis!

And if anyone is claiming that the tidal effect is the most significant indicator, since it is gravitation-based, then the weak gravitational pull of other planets just does not cut the mustard!

Perhaps as the discussion gets deeper and more serious we will get into the important sine qua non for Scientific observations: Reproducibility, Validity and so on!

RR

[RishiRahul]

Okay -- this forum is getting too serious and needs some acid meeting some alkali (nothing more dangerous than adding lime juice to baking powder (sodii bi carb)!

Both of you, Rishi and Hemal have called Astrology/Jyotish as SCIENCE.

Can you (without feeling offended and personally attacked!) explain to me why or how Jyotish can be justified as being a science. Use comparisons with other accepted sciences, if you wish.

And one clear indication of neither of you taking personal offense to my mild challenge in this posting would be: You would not question me back and ask what I think Jyotish is!

I think I have already written that very elaborately in many places, including this board!

This is not an exam and certainly not an open book exam! No exam where soul-searching is involved ever is!

Regards

RR



To Dada,

Before we venture forth to debate whether Jyotish is a science or not, let us agree on the definition of Science.

A definition of the above is pasted here from Wikipedia:

Science (from the Latin scientia, 'knowledge'), in the broadest sense, refers to any systematic knowledge or practice.[1] In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

Do we agree on this definition or is there another which could be considered mor apt.

RishiRahul

[Chawla]

Dear Rohiniranjan ji
I agree with your saying in earlier posts that movement of planets in different signs/houses are just like arms of a wall clock and they tells about the time in terms of bad/good period for a native. Though considering Mars as aggressive, Jupiter as wisdom giver or relying on other mythological stories to explain behaviour or events, seems irrational as mars/jupiter etc.  are just dead planets and too far away from earth to effect but if most of behavioural patterns or events predicted for a horoscope with the help of Jyotish comes true then definately this subject is fit to be called as "Science," though the very basic fundamental appears irrational to some people or scientists. I believe that the mythological stories to explain the behaviour of these planets were cooked up by great rishis for explaining the complex natural phenomenons in simple language and ultimately, one day, Science will accept those phenomenons too.

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]To Dada,

Before we venture forth to debate whether Jyotish is a science or not, let us agree on the definition of Science.

A definition of the above is pasted here from Wikipedia:

Science (from the Latin scientia, 'knowledge'), in the broadest sense, refers to any systematic knowledge or practice.[1] In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

Do we agree on this definition or is there another which could be considered mor apt.

RishiRahul[/quote]

Rishi,

For some reason the notice for this posting was not received by me. Good think that I do not rely on automation fully and still conduct a manual scan from time to time ;-)

While I think a bit about your quoted definition, here is a link for all serious and sincere astrologers to browse when in a calm and rested mind :-)

http://rudolfhsmit.nl/index.html

RR

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="rohiniranjan"][quote="RishiRahul"]To Dada,

Before we venture forth to debate whether Jyotish is a science or not, let us agree on the definition of Science.

A definition of the above is pasted here from Wikipedia:

Science (from the Latin scientia, 'knowledge'), in the broadest sense, refers to any systematic knowledge or practice.[1] In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

Do we agree on this definition or is there another which could be considered mor apt.

RishiRahul[/quote]

Rishi,

For some reason the notice for this posting was not received by me. Good think that I do not rely on automation fully and still conduct a manual scan from time to time ;-)

While I think a bit about your quoted definition, here is a link for all serious and sincere astrologers to browse when in a calm and rested mind :-)

http://rudolfhsmit.nl/index.html

RR[/quote]

Rishi and Hemal,

To save bandwidth on this forum and because some others with whom a similar discussion has been carried out for some time, I refer to my message posted today at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jyotish-vani/message/1046

Comments would be welcome, although there may not be much more on the topic for me to say, though I would be happy to clarify/elaborate any points made in that posting.

For me, it is not a debate Rishi, nor am I in love with the sound of my typing, as the expression goes. I lament at the serious amount of time that jyotishis have wasted by not banding and working together and putting their research exploration efforts where their mouth always seems to be!

Enough said, maybe too much ...!

Regards

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

The message open, but the contents are not seen.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]The message open, but the contents are not seen.

RishiRahul[/quote]

I tested it with a friend's id who is not a member! The message was seen! I think what happened was that I was downloading the site for archiving and the system gave me an error message: download quota exceeded, please try again.

I would recommend that you give it a good [[24 hours (and not 6) as per a privately-received &nbsp;recommendation from someone who has experienced similar situation with Yahoo groups! Sorry for the inconvenience friends!!]] hours or more to reset the download counter and then perhaps you may be able to see the message. But then again, you may have better things to do with your time! That would be fine too :-)

RR

[Rohiniranjan]

Regardless of whether you know me or not, read me or not and hate me or not, since science, scientific method and jyotish are often loosely rolled into one like a chinese dumpling, I feel it is important to bring the awareness to this forum of scientists that by the nature of things, a scientist must remain sceptical. Where data are concerned, the adage of Garbage in Garbage out (GIGO) applies to astrology even more than any other discipline!

We often get birthdata which is placed across our desk with much certainty but nothing to support it by. If you remain alert and do go through a lot of data, you would be surprised how callous people are when remembering their data or how vague parental recall can be, particularly when the birthdata is not recorded right away and then recalled from memory decades after birth!

Being an astrologer and all that, my lessons in reality came when my children were born!

I was there and noted the birthtime to the second of my first born! However, it was meant to be a *lesson* for me! The baby was having foetal distress even before born and so the true birthmoment was probably a few seconds to a minute or two prior to bhumipatanam, the moment stated as the moment of birth in kaliyuga! The child sustained some anoxia and was blue when born but soon picked up speed and still the "Fast Freddie" that I called that one and still do! Arrived before time but the birthtime recorded to the second was really AFTER arrival! The child turned out to be left handed, a condition that confirms the pre-birth anoxia or hypoxemia.

The second one was the opposite! This one arrived very normally, no anxiety other than the nurses being on strike that day! The baby was kind of pale, did not breathe or show signs of life for what seemed like a long minute or two. Was not blue or anything but more like white and pale and making a strange cooing sound (You should have seen a father at that moment who forgot all his astrology and simply opened himself yet again to witnessing the GLORIOUS moment of creation! The birth epoch was amorphous, not sharp in any sense of the term, classical or contemporary!

Two very wonderful lessons not just in life but in astrological study thereafter and my study of tattwas and birth epochs.

PLEASE do not ever stop questioning birthdata, and birth epochs, even if you are in the same room where the birth is happening! It is a GOD moment and never close your soul to that aspect of it! In olden times very few provisions existed for accurately recording birthtimes. Grandfather sitting outside the birthing room with his mechanical watch of uncertain accuracy (no cesium clocks or signals on the shortwave radio in the early times births, or the father pacing outside the birthing room in the west, smoking cigars or the modern yuppy parents recording the moment on their camcorders with uncalibrated timers are all in the same boat, the Yuppy being slightly better off as long as he did not faint!

Scepticism is the name of the brother of Science which keeps reality alert and aware!

Questioning often brings out information and sometimes reality and truth! Never stop!

RR

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="Chawla"]Dear Rohiniranjan ji
I agree with your saying in earlier posts that movement of planets in different signs/houses are just like arms of a wall clock and they tells about the time in terms of bad/good period for a native. Though considering Mars as aggressive, Jupiter as wisdom giver or relying on other mythological stories to explain behaviour or events, seems irrational as mars/jupiter etc.  are just dead planets and too far away from earth to effect but if most of behavioural patterns or events predicted for a horoscope with the help of Jyotish comes true then definately this subject is fit to be called as "Science," though the very basic fundamental appears irrational to some people or scientists. I believe that the mythological stories to explain the behaviour of these planets were cooked up by great rishis for explaining the complex natural phenomenons in simple language and ultimately, one day, Science will accept those phenomenons too.[/quote]



Dear Chawlaji,

My apologies for late response! Actually the similar strains in your and Rajesh_K's outpourings towards me reminded me of your message and my inexcusable inattention to it, which would have been quite contrary to reality.

While I am grateful for your response and the appreciative and concilliatory tone employed therein, I must be the messenger of the harsh news! There are too many assumptions in your posting about the performance of astrology or its symbols (where were the stats published? Where is the body of evidence??).

Also, it seems that some people did not take the time to really absorb what I wrote! I did not mean that the Great Rishis were concocters of fables and the mythological tales are lies or meaningless! Quite the contrary, Sir! I consider the mythologies as the holograms of soul in a sense. No matter how much we fragment the mythologies, there is meaning to be extracted, for they represent the travelogue of the human soul (when all mythologies are combined perhaps?). But they must be utilized with the right perspective and not used as 'band-aids' or panaceas for explaining everything in our lives!

When I go into my sanctum sanctorum each morning and touch the feet of my ancestors, I seek their blessings and the touch of their gentle hands on my head through out the rest of the day! But I do not expect, nor should anyone, to get lazy and depend on their blessings to figure out things and to solve my problems throughout the day! Mythology may guide but must not be expected to replace the LOGIC of daily living in worldly reality! As also in the astrological reality! Until proven through peer-reviewed demonstration (not assumed!) otherwise!! Like in any other scientific framework ...

Humbly submitted before you and the remainder of this august gathering...

Rohiniranjan

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]The message open, but the contents are not seen.

RishiRahul[/quote]

Further to last message ...!

OOPS and MEA CULPA!

While browsing around this fine evening in the introduction area where I generally do not dwell, I came upon Rhutobello's message which indicated that any links to other forums are not permitted on this board!

Rishi, can you please delete my messages or responses to that one where another jyotishforum link is mentioned?

I should not have posted that here even though I meant to save forum bandwidth since the message was a bit long!

Sorry to make work for you brother, but kindly delete the messages where the link to yahoo jyotish_vani appears.

Thanku

RR

[Rhutobello]

Nope...you are allowed....the post you read about goes upon new arrival and those who post link to own site in order to promote theme-self....or sell something.

Your link goes on education and not to your own benefit....and the more regular the member are...the more generous we are

[RishiRahul]

Dear RohiniRanjanji,

We try to judge the intention of a posting and even links. There are no clear cut rules.

Hope you are well.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]Dear RohiniRanjanji,

We try to judge the intention of a posting and even links. There are no clear cut rules.

Hope you are well.

RishiRahul[/quote]


Rishi,

I am fine, thanks!

And, internet being the limited medium where we try to explain the magic of Creation and Universe and the rules underwriting it all (here!) there are bound to be misunderstandings and misperceptions. As long as we do not run away from reality, only learning and growth shall cling to us like two elder sisters who love to make fun of us, to tease, bully, challenge and torture us but who also love us dearly (hence they cling to us!) and who instantaneously step in when MA is not available or is busy elsewhere!

RR