Hi, I just got a query from a Reader, and though I'd post it here, as it is a very genuine one...
The Query is
" i know that line on palms could change and could change the life of the person. does this work in astrology as well. does the planets change their path. lets say if you read my chart and you say that this planet would stay in this house for 10 years. is it possible that it could even end up in some differnt house or ends even before 10 years. lets say in 5 years. do the planets change their paths or when you read someone chart and does the chart stay the same for rest of his life. and never change".
I replied as follows.....
Planets are always in motion, they go from one rashi to the next.
They affect us as follows:
1. Planetary positions in the birth horoscope never change, they show fixed indications.
2. Planetary periods (called dashas and bhuktis) last for from a few months to a few years and are applicable according to calculations, at certain periods in one's life. These calculations are based upon fixed principles given in the Hindu almanac.
3. Planets transiting the sky affect different persons differently, based upon their birth horoscopes and the planetary positions at birth. These effects are also based upon the tenets given in Vedic treatises and need to be studied in depth, for understanding them.
Question from a Reader, reproduced here
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Medical Astrology
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Medical Astrology
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This same Reader responded,
"so in that case our fate or destiny is already controlled by these planets. pretty much there is nothing we could change. for example: one planet have effect to make someone ill and kill him/her at age of 36 and when that person reach to that age he will fall ill and die for sure as this was in his birth chart indicated by effect of those planets. as you said also that we cant change the planets and their effects. one more question, why there are gem stones, poojas, herbs etc to reduce their effects if they are NOT going to effect you anyway. if lets say that that it could reduce the effect then how would it help the one who suppose to get divorce as this was in birth chart and effect of those planets. how could it reduce the effect of divorce. it will either cure 100% or either the divorce would happen. because you cant cure divorce. sorry for too many question. but i just had the feeling you are good at answering these kind of questions".
My answer to the above, is:
Some things that are destined to happen will not be changed but there are other things destined to happen that can be altered to smaller or greater extent.
This is the vachan given in the Shastras.
In other words, not everything in Destiny can be changed.
Exactly what is amenable to change and what is not, can be known only by a very Enlightened Mind, which is beyond an average human, like me!
I personally have seen many instances where a person's health has improved markedly with the use of specific herbs, based on their horoscope.
I mean, these people never had incurable diseases, but they had chronic diseases, and were not responding properly to their medicines. They all began to respond properly to their medicines, at least.
And many heart patients could avoid a Bypass operation because of the herbs..... would you call that useless?
Their health parametres improved so much that their own doctors suggested they need not go for Bypass!
They still take their medicines, however, but they are leading lives of a much better quality!
Similarly, in Behaviour Disorders:
In one instance, the wife was unable to bear the humiliation (this humiliation was not too much, by the way) in her husband's family. Her mother-in-law was not satified with her behaviour in the house.
BOTH ladies were treated with Bach flower remedies ..... and today the marriage is saved, the couple has a 6 year old son, and is living fairly happily.
BOTH ladies were given appropriate gemstones on the advice of a very renowned jyotishi.
The husband had a full kaal-sarpa dosha in his horoscope and the appropriate pooja was done.
They still have some quarrels, but they do not go the extreme of divorce!
So....... isn't this of use to them?
"so in that case our fate or destiny is already controlled by these planets. pretty much there is nothing we could change. for example: one planet have effect to make someone ill and kill him/her at age of 36 and when that person reach to that age he will fall ill and die for sure as this was in his birth chart indicated by effect of those planets. as you said also that we cant change the planets and their effects. one more question, why there are gem stones, poojas, herbs etc to reduce their effects if they are NOT going to effect you anyway. if lets say that that it could reduce the effect then how would it help the one who suppose to get divorce as this was in birth chart and effect of those planets. how could it reduce the effect of divorce. it will either cure 100% or either the divorce would happen. because you cant cure divorce. sorry for too many question. but i just had the feeling you are good at answering these kind of questions".
My answer to the above, is:
Some things that are destined to happen will not be changed but there are other things destined to happen that can be altered to smaller or greater extent.
This is the vachan given in the Shastras.
In other words, not everything in Destiny can be changed.
Exactly what is amenable to change and what is not, can be known only by a very Enlightened Mind, which is beyond an average human, like me!
I personally have seen many instances where a person's health has improved markedly with the use of specific herbs, based on their horoscope.
I mean, these people never had incurable diseases, but they had chronic diseases, and were not responding properly to their medicines. They all began to respond properly to their medicines, at least.
And many heart patients could avoid a Bypass operation because of the herbs..... would you call that useless?
Their health parametres improved so much that their own doctors suggested they need not go for Bypass!
They still take their medicines, however, but they are leading lives of a much better quality!
Similarly, in Behaviour Disorders:
In one instance, the wife was unable to bear the humiliation (this humiliation was not too much, by the way) in her husband's family. Her mother-in-law was not satified with her behaviour in the house.
BOTH ladies were treated with Bach flower remedies ..... and today the marriage is saved, the couple has a 6 year old son, and is living fairly happily.
BOTH ladies were given appropriate gemstones on the advice of a very renowned jyotishi.
The husband had a full kaal-sarpa dosha in his horoscope and the appropriate pooja was done.
They still have some quarrels, but they do not go the extreme of divorce!
So....... isn't this of use to them?
one can change planetary postion
method: tantra and personal will power, worship and stick to true path,path of Dharma.
Method: by knowing the nature of efects of planet.
Science is already changing it.
science is progressing due to divine blessing.
Method: by knowing the nature of efects of planet.
Science is already changing it.
science is progressing due to divine blessing.
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bondbond333
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Birth chart is an indicator; a rough probabilistic map from birth to death. We could may be learn when the bad time would end or how long good time would stay.
And may be slightly we could increase or decrease the intensity of periods only very slightly. But with knowing that bad period would end soon gives a psychological boost and hope nothing more than that.
But if real changes are required it must already be present no effort of ours would make us something which we are not.
Some where in this modern fascination of anything named "vedic", and huge demand for quick results astrology has taken a new role and is doing something its not meant for (i.e playing god) and you could see many failed results because of that.
In olden days what i heard from my elders is astrologers used to jst keep quite and say nothing more if they have seen some bad combination's and used to leave it for fate. They used to suggest only if they thought there is a chance for change.
Regards,
Gs
And may be slightly we could increase or decrease the intensity of periods only very slightly. But with knowing that bad period would end soon gives a psychological boost and hope nothing more than that.
But if real changes are required it must already be present no effort of ours would make us something which we are not.
Some where in this modern fascination of anything named "vedic", and huge demand for quick results astrology has taken a new role and is doing something its not meant for (i.e playing god) and you could see many failed results because of that.
In olden days what i heard from my elders is astrologers used to jst keep quite and say nothing more if they have seen some bad combination's and used to leave it for fate. They used to suggest only if they thought there is a chance for change.
Regards,
Gs
Again, can not point to a source, but something my guruji told me long time back....Medical Astrology wrote:
Some things that are destined to happen will not be changed but there are other things destined to happen that can be altered to smaller or greater extent.
This is the vachan given in the Shastras.
In other words, not everything in Destiny can be changed.
Exactly what is amenable to change and what is not, can be known only by a very Enlightened Mind, which is beyond an average human, like me!
The only things that can not be altered and that only Brahma Ji truly know are:
Janma-Mrityu (Birth-Death)
Laabh-Haani (Gains - Losses)
Yash-Apyash (Fame - Defame)
Everything else comes into the spectra of Free Will and it is upto us to make the best of the worst situations and how sometimes people make the worst of the best opportunities...
sahil
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RishiRahul
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arian_1c wrote:Again, can not point to a source, but something my guruji told me long time back....Medical Astrology wrote:
Some things that are destined to happen will not be changed but there are other things destined to happen that can be altered to smaller or greater extent.
This is the vachan given in the Shastras.
In other words, not everything in Destiny can be changed.
Exactly what is amenable to change and what is not, can be known only by a very Enlightened Mind, which is beyond an average human, like me!
The only things that can not be altered and that only Brahma Ji truly know are:
Janma-Mrityu (Birth-Death)
Laabh-Haani (Gains - Losses)
Yash-Apyash (Fame - Defame)
Everything else comes into the spectra of Free Will and it is upto us to make the best of the worst situations and how sometimes people make the worst of the best opportunities...
sahil
Dea Arian,
You Guruji was right, I am sure.
What else is left for free will/remains for free will?.... Just wondering?
RishiRahul
A lot...RishiRahul wrote:
Dea Arian,
You Guruji was right, I am sure.
What else is left for free will/remains for free will?.... Just wondering?
RishiRahul
Lets begin with Character, Courage, Morals, Ethics, behavior, Friendships, Enmities...
Dealing with success, dealing with failures....
Choosing to work hard or let the Pseudo-Fate dictate your life...
It is probably more important to believe in Karma than to believe in fate..
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Raman Deep Singh
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Hi Sahil,
Nice to see you back (whenevr u com back
)
As far as i remember chanduabi had started a thread regarding freewill and destiny.
Where he talked about freewill and destiny to be part of each and NOT 2 separete things.
Kindly go thru it .. m sure u will find it to be much ore clear than any other explanation.
Offcourse we all r suppose to have different outlook towards life but i find it to be better
and more objective in its uderstanding
Regards,
Raman
Nice to see you back (whenevr u com back
)As far as i remember chanduabi had started a thread regarding freewill and destiny.
Where he talked about freewill and destiny to be part of each and NOT 2 separete things.
Kindly go thru it .. m sure u will find it to be much ore clear than any other explanation.
Offcourse we all r suppose to have different outlook towards life but i find it to be better
and more objective in its uderstanding
Regards,
Raman
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Rhutobello
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If no FREE WILL was present;
Then you would never feel confused
then you never need explanation on anything..because you had no choice to do anything but the right thing.
Then you never need to envy another person
Then you never had to struggle for power
Then we could lay down our legal system, because we was bound to do thing..and none could judge us.
Then Every Living Soul Had To Be A Robot, With Path And Destination Laid, And None Of Us Need To Feel Anger Toward An Old Admin That Has Got A Path, To Tell About Free Will, Which Not Exist, And I Wonder What Meaning The Creator Must Have Doing Such A Thing!
What Is The Meaning With Such A Life?
It is the "Free will" that make the life worth living.
It is the free will that make each and one of us exciting and unpredictable, and unique.
It is your Free will that's make you believe that you have no free will, even if you use it daily...to choose what to have to dinner, to go to movie, to stop and talk, or just pass, to take left instead of right...to give a present or to say NO I will give no more......and lots more...life..
If a free will exist, then it must exist over all....there can't be used from some chosen who have it...it must be present in all...because else it will destroy, or interfere with the path laid for those who have no free will.
The belief that says you have NO FREE WILL is a dangerous belief, because it creates souls that are confused, it creates souls that are asking for directions instead of looking for directions, it takes away the personal initiative, and let the belief itself lead the way....DANGEROUS!
Then you would never feel confused
then you never need explanation on anything..because you had no choice to do anything but the right thing.
Then you never need to envy another person
Then you never had to struggle for power
Then we could lay down our legal system, because we was bound to do thing..and none could judge us.
Then Every Living Soul Had To Be A Robot, With Path And Destination Laid, And None Of Us Need To Feel Anger Toward An Old Admin That Has Got A Path, To Tell About Free Will, Which Not Exist, And I Wonder What Meaning The Creator Must Have Doing Such A Thing!
What Is The Meaning With Such A Life?
It is the "Free will" that make the life worth living.
It is the free will that make each and one of us exciting and unpredictable, and unique.
It is your Free will that's make you believe that you have no free will, even if you use it daily...to choose what to have to dinner, to go to movie, to stop and talk, or just pass, to take left instead of right...to give a present or to say NO I will give no more......and lots more...life..
If a free will exist, then it must exist over all....there can't be used from some chosen who have it...it must be present in all...because else it will destroy, or interfere with the path laid for those who have no free will.
The belief that says you have NO FREE WILL is a dangerous belief, because it creates souls that are confused, it creates souls that are asking for directions instead of looking for directions, it takes away the personal initiative, and let the belief itself lead the way....DANGEROUS!
Nicely composed post Sir Rhuto...
Hey Raman, I couldn't find that thread by CD, can you plz post a link here... thanks already....
Meanwhile I am copying and pasting something here from Wikipedia...something that makes a lot of sense to me...
"
A quotation from Swami Vivekananda, a Vedantist, offers a good example of the worry about free will in the Hindu tradition.
Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here.
However, the preceding quote has often been misinterpreted as Vivekananda implying that everything is predetermined. What Vivekananda actually meant by lack of free will was that the will was not "free" because it was heavily influenced by the law of cause and effect – "The will is not free, it is a phenomenon bound by cause and effect, but there is something behind the will which is free." Vivekananda never said things were absolutely determined and placed emphasis on the power of conscious choice to alter one's past Karma: "It is the coward and the fool who says this is his fate. But it is the strong man who stands up and says I will make my own fate."
Similarly, Vivekananda's teacher Ramakrishna Paramahansa, using an analogy said that man is like a cow tied to a pole with a rope - the karmic debts and human nature bind him and the amount of free will he has is analogous to the amount of freedom the rope allows; as one progresses spiritually , the rope becomes longer.
Mimamsa, Vedanta, and the more theistic versions of Hinduism such as Shaivism and Vaishnavism, have often emphasized the importance of free will. The doctrine of Karma in Hinduism requires both that we pay for our actions in the past, and that our actions in the present be free enough to allow us to deserve the future reward or punishment that we will receive for our present actions."
Hey Raman, I couldn't find that thread by CD, can you plz post a link here... thanks already....
Meanwhile I am copying and pasting something here from Wikipedia...something that makes a lot of sense to me...
"
A quotation from Swami Vivekananda, a Vedantist, offers a good example of the worry about free will in the Hindu tradition.
Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here.
However, the preceding quote has often been misinterpreted as Vivekananda implying that everything is predetermined. What Vivekananda actually meant by lack of free will was that the will was not "free" because it was heavily influenced by the law of cause and effect – "The will is not free, it is a phenomenon bound by cause and effect, but there is something behind the will which is free." Vivekananda never said things were absolutely determined and placed emphasis on the power of conscious choice to alter one's past Karma: "It is the coward and the fool who says this is his fate. But it is the strong man who stands up and says I will make my own fate."
Similarly, Vivekananda's teacher Ramakrishna Paramahansa, using an analogy said that man is like a cow tied to a pole with a rope - the karmic debts and human nature bind him and the amount of free will he has is analogous to the amount of freedom the rope allows; as one progresses spiritually , the rope becomes longer.
Mimamsa, Vedanta, and the more theistic versions of Hinduism such as Shaivism and Vaishnavism, have often emphasized the importance of free will. The doctrine of Karma in Hinduism requires both that we pay for our actions in the past, and that our actions in the present be free enough to allow us to deserve the future reward or punishment that we will receive for our present actions."
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RishiRahul
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arian_1c wrote:A lot...RishiRahul wrote:
Dea Arian,
You Guruji was right, I am sure.
What else is left for free will/remains for free will?.... Just wondering?
RishiRahul
Lets begin with Character, Courage, Morals, Ethics, behavior, Friendships, Enmities...
Dealing with success, dealing with failures....
Choosing to work hard or let the Pseudo-Fate dictate your life...
It is probably more important to believe in Karma than to believe in fate..
Hi,
I am not contesting the fact whether there is free will or not; but was just talking and discussing what your Guruji said.
Out of:=
Janma-Mrityu (Birth-Death)
Laabh-Haani (Gains - Losses)
Yash-Apyash (Fame - Defame)............
You said:=
Character= influenced strongly by the above.
Courage, Morals, Ethics, behavior, Friendships, Enmities= very much dependant on the above
Dealing with success, dealing with failures....= similar to/strongly influenced by gains, losses, fame, defame.
Choosing to work hard or let the Pseudo-Fate dictate your life= choosing to work hard... Yes. But whether you will or not is dependant on the class, texture of your palm. Whether you will get gains or not is dependant on dependant on palmistic astrological factors/ruled by destiny.
It is probably more important to believe in Karma than to believe in fate= Absolutely agreed with that we SHOULD BELIEVE in Karma
RishiRahul
P.S: How many of us discussing free will are qualified enough through age, experience, knowledge of philosophy and Divinatory Sciences, to confirm the extent of Free will in actuality.
If the above conditions are not met... W should just discuss... not confirm....... Or Am I Wrong!!?
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Rhutobello
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If there was no free will, then we would not have this discussion.RishiRahul wrote: How many of us discussing free will are qualified enough through age, experience, knowledge of philosophy and Divinatory Sciences, to confirm the extent of Free will in actuality.
If the above conditions are not met... W should just discuss... not confirm....... Or Am I Wrong!!?
It is your free will that deny to accept it, because your belief tells it don't exist, and you chose to explain your action with "theses" given by your belief. (said in general terms)
Since one transfer "the responsibility" (free will) from the Native to the Belief, the Native is easier to control true the Belief, with the damage it does to the Natives initiative, and create frustration which we easy can spot by reading the post here in the forum, and the many strange request.
It put a very big responsibility on those who will act as "Readers" to educate the Native about what is possible and what is not.
The Reader is the key element in this education, because the belief in Astrology has so strong footing in your tradition.
As said:
If free will not exist, Then can NEITHER this discussion exist, WITHOUT a Greater power want it, because then we would have no will of our own to produce these opposite thoughts.
You would have clear thoughts about what to do, but NEVER thoughts that differ from this main thought.
Life would be like living as a doll in a child's playroom, you was controlled and moved around, with nothing to say or do, that could interfere with the play, and since you had no thoughts of your own you would like a zombie be lead.
I will also copy and paste something I found :
Free will is all about the choices we make every day and how we choose to live our lives in the present. These factors, regardless of the composition of a birth chart, look to the daily placement of the planets and stars for astrological guidance, but every decision that you make throughout the day is part of a greater composition: that of your personal plan for spiritual and universal progression. By our own will, we decide who we want to be and what we want to accomplish.
The individual takes the initiative. This area of Karmic Astrology is a wide open plain of possibilities; regardless of who you are or your fate, your thinking and actions are free from improper immersion or restraint. Free will teaches us to know what's right and to set a code of ethics and behavior by which each of us, as individuals, can live comfortably.
For better or for worse, free will is representative of the karma we bring onto ourselves. The choices we make lead to goal choices as well. The difference between fate and free will is that the latter has unlimited possibilities; free will is all about our unrestrained choices. Our values and ethics mold what kind of person we decide to be and free will reflects our placement in the universe as freethinking entities. Scruples shape who we are; they are the set of morals that we've chosen for ourselves regarding how we act and how we think. Those elements of our individuality that orchestrate our belief system are the basis of our free will. Free will makes us selective and discriminating. It is this notion of Karmic Astrology that encourages us to take action.
Even if you simply lie in bed all day or in some way stop yourself from interacting with the world and making decisions, you are still setting your path by your own free will. By not acting you are making a free choice, and this is a decision you've chosen to live with. Free will is not only about taking action; it is the way you structure your life, a power which is always in your hands. Executing your free will brings your consciousness into play. Tuning out is still an action as the individual is still making a decision about the importance they give to matters in life.
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RishiRahul
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Hi Rhuto,
My belief does not say that free will does not exist. Are you sure that I imply it? I do not believe in influencing others vehemently to my thoughts. My thoughts could be incorrect too, like any others could be too.
You quoted only a part of the thread which I made. The other part was in response to what Arian's Guru said. I am trying to stick to logic and trying to discuss it part by part; So that a/best perception is reached.
Part by part discussions help to arrive at a Proper perception.
Also, the Free Will understood by your Perception may be different from others= Result being talking in cross purposes.
You say: 'It is your free will that deny to accept it'= Accept what? I did not deny Free Will at all, as I said before.
You say:=
'Since one transfer "the responsibility" (free will) from the Native to the Belief, the Native is easier to control true the Belief, with the damage it does to the Natives initiative, and create frustration which we easy can spot by reading the post here in the forum, and the many strange request.
It put a very big responsibility on those who will act as "Readers" to educate the Native about what is possible and what is not.
The Reader is the key element in this education, because the belief in Astrology has so strong footing in your tradition.'=
I was trying to discuss what I feel is true.... and Remember that Vedic Literature (a derivative is Vedic astrology) is a very rich Literature... More a Way of Life than Religion..about which many are not aware of. and that I would hate distorting it.
One cannot equate responsibility with free will. No one can deny others free Will. One can try to control belief, but not destiny, even Free Will.
Since this is thread is attracting sharp reactions, I am off controversies/this thread.
RishiRahul
My belief does not say that free will does not exist. Are you sure that I imply it? I do not believe in influencing others vehemently to my thoughts. My thoughts could be incorrect too, like any others could be too.
You quoted only a part of the thread which I made. The other part was in response to what Arian's Guru said. I am trying to stick to logic and trying to discuss it part by part; So that a/best perception is reached.
Part by part discussions help to arrive at a Proper perception.
Also, the Free Will understood by your Perception may be different from others= Result being talking in cross purposes.
You say: 'It is your free will that deny to accept it'= Accept what? I did not deny Free Will at all, as I said before.
You say:=
'Since one transfer "the responsibility" (free will) from the Native to the Belief, the Native is easier to control true the Belief, with the damage it does to the Natives initiative, and create frustration which we easy can spot by reading the post here in the forum, and the many strange request.
It put a very big responsibility on those who will act as "Readers" to educate the Native about what is possible and what is not.
The Reader is the key element in this education, because the belief in Astrology has so strong footing in your tradition.'=
I was trying to discuss what I feel is true.... and Remember that Vedic Literature (a derivative is Vedic astrology) is a very rich Literature... More a Way of Life than Religion..about which many are not aware of. and that I would hate distorting it.
One cannot equate responsibility with free will. No one can deny others free Will. One can try to control belief, but not destiny, even Free Will.
Since this is thread is attracting sharp reactions, I am off controversies/this thread.
RishiRahul
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Rhutobello
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If you feel offended by my post, then I apologize from my heart...that has never been my goal...maybe it comes out that way because we both are none English, and we have different ways to see thing.
You said I only took a clip from your post, that is right, but in this clip you asked if Free will really existed, if free will exist, then the extend of it, is of no value in this discussion, because that is up to the Native and his/her use of it, plus different societies rules and so on.
The fact that we have free will, are not the same that we can do what we will, we are bound by rules and laws, we interact with other who also have free will, our workplace has it's rules and so on, and what we in the end manage is a combination of it all....but our motor is our free will...it is here you collect your initiative, the will to go on even in the darkest of time, or chose to stay inactive and wait for faith to fix everything for you.
Again...sorry..never attend to offend any.
You said I only took a clip from your post, that is right, but in this clip you asked if Free will really existed, if free will exist, then the extend of it, is of no value in this discussion, because that is up to the Native and his/her use of it, plus different societies rules and so on.
The fact that we have free will, are not the same that we can do what we will, we are bound by rules and laws, we interact with other who also have free will, our workplace has it's rules and so on, and what we in the end manage is a combination of it all....but our motor is our free will...it is here you collect your initiative, the will to go on even in the darkest of time, or chose to stay inactive and wait for faith to fix everything for you.
Again...sorry..never attend to offend any.
Dear RR ji,RishiRahul wrote: How many of us discussing free will are qualified enough through age, experience, knowledge of philosophy and Divinatory Sciences, to confirm the extent of Free will in actuality.
If the above conditions are not met... W should just discuss... not confirm....... Or Am I Wrong!!?
totally respect your rationale for what you said above...
however, I am sure if there was such a person who was qualified enough owing to his age(although I don't believe age is a factor at all), experience, knowledge of philosophy and Divinatory Sciences, a lot many people would still not care enough to believe him, and that is exactly what my point is.
You see, everybody on the planet is meant to follow his own path towards spirituality, knowledge, wisdom, power or perhaps whatever he wants to attain in life, and everybody must start somewhere.
BELIEFS keep on changing, and its okay, there is nothing wrong with that, infact that is how you grow in life. However, it is really important to be open minded . It is extremely important to know that you can't know everything.
It is okay to start in life with what you believe in, it can be what your guru tells you or what you respective religion teaches you. Once you are following your religion or your guru, it is important to keep an open mind to grow in life like I said before. But but but, how can one even walk in life if he doesn't know what to believe and what not to believe. How can one walk without putting a foot forward.... you see you have to choose and put a foot forward or you just cant walk.
In this particular case, this is what my religion teaches me, this is what my guruji taught me and this is what my antar-mann keeps on repeating, We've always got a choice....
peace
sahil
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