Judgement of Selfishness in Astrology

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Post by Certain » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:08 am

Rishirahul wrote:Summary (common)===
Atmakrak not having rasi drishti of Jupiter.


I will keep that in my mind and will see how does it go for more horoscope of classical selfish breed.


RohiniRanjan wrote:I think the samudra-manthan story which created rahu and ketu, and we busy astrologers are trying to figure out remedies for, were not some historical account but a wise forefather nudging us in a rather gentle but provocative way!


Stories were and are good either way. :)

Thanks to both of you for input ,effort and time

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:05 am

You are most welcome! As always :-)

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Post by RishiRahul » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:05 am

Hello again,

Selfishness is commonly denoted by strong concern with oneself or concern with one's own interests, to the detriment of others.
While, Selflessness is the act of sacrificing ones own interest for the greater good.

So here we find the opposites in explanation... kept side by side.

(Not going into more details like selfish regarding something and or unselfish about else) From the above meaning, can we infer that a selfish person thinks strongly about the self, and very less about sacrificing for others?.

If the above is correct, can we (as a corollary, similar to what we have in theorems), can we deduce/narrate what would happen if a selfish person is hurt by others, and how the selfish person would react?

Why I am trying to come down to its meaning in shorter terms, as the quality/content of selfishness can be dissected, therefore broadened........ more variables brought in..... as in Jyotish, more than other astrology.

Only after agreeing or coming to a stable picture, I shall go ahead with a good indicator.


RishiRahul

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:13 pm

RishiRahul wrote:Hello again,

Selfishness is commonly denoted by strong concern with oneself or concern with one's own interests, to the detriment of others.
While, Selflessness is the act of sacrificing ones own interest for the greater good.

So here we find the opposites in explanation... kept side by side.

(Not going into more details like selfish regarding something and or unselfish about else) From the above meaning, can we infer that a selfish person thinks strongly about the self, and very less about sacrificing for others?.

If the above is correct, can we (as a corollary, similar to what we have in theorems), can we deduce/narrate what would happen if a selfish person is hurt by others, and how the selfish person would react?

Why I am trying to come down to its meaning in shorter terms, as the quality/content of selfishness can be dissected, therefore broadened........ more variables brought in..... as in Jyotish, more than other astrology.

Only after agreeing or coming to a stable picture, I shall go ahead with a good indicator.


RishiRahul
[can we infer that a selfish person thinks strongly about the self, and very less about sacrificing for others?.] Yes

[what would happen if a selfish person is hurt by others, and how the selfish person would react?] If he is smart and reacting would lead to more loss, he would try and cut his losses, because loss is abhorrant to him (or her), if the opposite, he (or she) will charge ahead to reclaim what he (or she) thinks is 'rightfully' his (or hers).
Regards,

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Post by Rhutobello » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:22 pm

The way I see it, then Selfishness can be explained when a person want to take something he/she don't need, and which then goes on the cost of other.

Let me take two situations.

2 person goes down a street. 1 is not rich but have enough money to get through...the other is a hobo with no money what so ever.
Suddenly a guy approaches and offer a free sleeping bag.
The guy who has enough money is fastest in his reply, and he get the sleeping bag.
He has another sleeping bag in the house, and he want to show how nice he is by selling this to someone for half the price of what it is worth.


The next person goes to a shop and buy a sleeping bag.
He has another, not so fancy back home.
He want to be nice, and is putting this up for half the price of it worth.

Was both equal good...or who was selfish?
_________________
Even if the first did not have a sleeping bag at home, he had enough money to buy one...so he took the bag on the cost of the hobo who really needed it. The same selfishness is shown when we try to achieve  personal gain in job, or relationship, by downgrading other, when you know that isn't true...but you can see that the action benefits you.

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Post by mysbcrs » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:12 pm

Somehow I feel selfishness is just a way of manifestation of shadripus. We feel a person to be selfish if he tries to "profit" from all situations. Profit could be fulfilling his/her wants, to be in control of situation, to accumulate wealth or possessions, to assert ownership on something or an expectation that others should respect him/her etc. And of-course we can't ignore Scopios who may be doing all this without us noticing! So why not look at connection between lagnesh, upaachaya houses and kama trikon?

Also, do we look at Arudha or Sathya? Are we, as onlookers, can ever be detached enough to get a grip on Sathya? Doen't our own selfishness force us to see only Arudha?

Well, some loud thinking. Hopefully noisy enough :smt005

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Post by Rhutobello » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:42 pm

Again in my view....I don't feel anyone are selfish, if they have more money then me..are more successful then me...live in Castles or drive Rolls Royce.

If they have earned with normal competition..then it is them well earned.

On the other hand...if a factory or shop owner through fear, or other means try to manipulate their  employees to earn less then what is normal going rate, then I call it selfishness.

It damage many people, including those they compete with, who must carry a higher cost.

The same for those who earn through con of any art...they know they earn money on others loss...it is their way to do money, and must be seen very selfish.

So again...selfishness is when you feed your own happiness on the cost of other....that be also when you talk negative about neighbors, partner, friends, competitors in order to promote yourself....Promote yourself through your own action...not through your negative talk.

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Post by RishiRahul » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:41 pm

Rhutobello wrote:The way I see it, then Selfishness can be explained when a person want to take something he/she don't need, and which then goes on the cost of other.

Let me take two situations.

2 person goes down a street. 1 is not rich but have enough money to get through...the other is a hobo with no money what so ever.
Suddenly a guy approaches and offer a free sleeping bag.
The guy who has enough money is fastest in his reply, and he get the sleeping bag.
He has another sleeping bag in the house, and he want to show how nice he is by selling this to someone for half the price of what it is worth.


The next person goes to a shop and buy a sleeping bag.
He has another, not so fancy back home.
He want to be nice, and is putting this up for half the price of it worth.

Was both equal good...or who was selfish?
_________________
Even if the first did not have a sleeping bag at home, he had enough money to buy one...so he took the bag on the cost of the hobo who really needed it. The same selfishness is shown when we try to achieve  personal gain in job, or relationship, by downgrading other, when you know that isn't true...but you can see that the action benefits you.

Hi Rhuto Grandpa,

Good to have you knowing the Grandpa days are back :) .
The word 'hobo' :smt005 ! is an interesting one!

Are we (here) equating 'good' with 'unselfish'; and 'not good' with selfish?


Rishi

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Post by RishiRahul » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:49 pm

Rhutobello wrote:Again in my view....I don't feel anyone are selfish, if they have more money then me..are more successful then me...live in Castles or drive Rolls Royce.

If they have earned with normal competition..then it is them well earned.

On the other hand...if a factory or shop owner through fear, or other means try to manipulate their  employees to earn less then what is normal going rate, then I call it selfishness.

It damage many people, including those they compete with, who must carry a higher cost.

The same for those who earn through con of any art...they know they earn money on others loss...it is their way to do money, and must be seen very selfish.

So again...selfishness is when you feed your own happiness on the cost of other....that be also when you talk negative about neighbors, partner, friends, competitors in order to promote yourself....Promote yourself through your own action...not through your negative talk.

Hi Rhuto,

Agreed that 'selfishness is when you feed your own happiness on the cost of other', ................but then what you mentioned after this seems to equate selfishness with morality.

Am I correct?

RishiRahul

P.S: since we are discussing an interesting topic  it would be nice if you include the quote, as it would be easier to reply :)

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Post by RishiRahul » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:52 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:Hello again,

Selfishness is commonly denoted by strong concern with oneself or concern with one's own interests, to the detriment of others.
While, Selflessness is the act of sacrificing ones own interest for the greater good.

So here we find the opposites in explanation... kept side by side.

(Not going into more details like selfish regarding something and or unselfish about else) From the above meaning, can we infer that a selfish person thinks strongly about the self, and very less about sacrificing for others?.

If the above is correct, can we (as a corollary, similar to what we have in theorems), can we deduce/narrate what would happen if a selfish person is hurt by others, and how the selfish person would react?

Why I am trying to come down to its meaning in shorter terms, as the quality/content of selfishness can be dissected, therefore broadened........ more variables brought in..... as in Jyotish, more than other astrology.

Only after agreeing or coming to a stable picture, I shall go ahead with a good indicator.


RishiRahul
[can we infer that a selfish person thinks strongly about the self, and very less about sacrificing for others?.] Yes

[what would happen if a selfish person is hurt by others, and how the selfish person would react?] If he is smart and reacting would lead to more loss, he would try and cut his losses, because loss is abhorrant to him (or her), if the opposite, he (or she) will charge ahead to reclaim what he (or she) thinks is 'rightfully' his (or hers).
Regards,

Dear Dada,

Which means a normal selfish (considering a normal selfish person is smart) would know how to cut his/her losses well.

So would he/she sleep better than the 'unselfish' who loses?

Rishi

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Post by Rhutobello » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:08 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Rhutobello wrote:Again in my view....I don't feel anyone are selfish, if they have more money then me..are more successful then me...live in Castles or drive Rolls Royce.

If they have earned with normal competition..then it is them well earned.

On the other hand...if a factory or shop owner through fear, or other means try to manipulate their  employees to earn less then what is normal going rate, then I call it selfishness.

It damage many people, including those they compete with, who must carry a higher cost.

The same for those who earn through con of any art...they know they earn money on others loss...it is their way to do money, and must be seen very selfish.

So again...selfishness is when you feed your own happiness on the cost of other....that be also when you talk negative about neighbors, partner, friends, competitors in order to promote yourself....Promote yourself through your own action...not through your negative talk.

Hi Rhuto,

Agreed that 'selfishness is when you feed your own happiness on the cost of other', ................but then what you mentioned after this seems to equate selfishness with morality.

Am I correct?

RishiRahul

P.S: since we are discussing an interesting topic  it would be nice if you include the quote, as it would be easier to reply :)
Everything here is a question about how define it our self.

I call it selfish because as I said...it is done in order to promote oneself.

When it come to morality, then negative talk is not good seen from any moral's point.
We might listen to a rumor, and bring it along, without having own interest in mind, this is morally wrong, and can harm a person, but might not have been done with purpose for own benefit in mind.
Last edited by Rhutobello on Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rhutobello » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:19 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Rhutobello wrote:The way I see it, then Selfishness can be explained when a person want to take something he/she don't need, and which then goes on the cost of other.

Let me take two situations.

2 person goes down a street. 1 is not rich but have enough money to get through...the other is a hobo with no money what so ever.
Suddenly a guy approaches and offer a free sleeping bag.
The guy who has enough money is fastest in his reply, and he get the sleeping bag.
He has another sleeping bag in the house, and he want to show how nice he is by selling this to someone for half the price of what it is worth.


The next person goes to a shop and buy a sleeping bag.
He has another, not so fancy back home.
He want to be nice, and is putting this up for half the price of it worth.

Was both equal good...or who was selfish?
_________________
Even if the first did not have a sleeping bag at home, he had enough money to buy one...so he took the bag on the cost of the hobo who really needed it. The same selfishness is shown when we try to achieve  personal gain in job, or relationship, by downgrading other, when you know that isn't true...but you can see that the action benefits you.

Hi Rhuto Grandpa,

Good to have you knowing the Grandpa days are back :) .
The word 'hobo' :smt005 ! is an interesting one!

Are we (here) equating 'good' with 'unselfish'; and 'not good' with selfish?


Rishi
Also a definition question..

If the one who had money was alone when asked about the sleeping bag, it was in my view ok to say thanks and take it.....Here he did not prevented other....and if he sold his other sleeping bag for half price, then that would also be a better deed, even if he still had earned on the situation.

When he prevented one who was clearly in a much worse situation to achieve the benefit of the offer, then he did show a big selfishness.
This selfishness prevented his next deed to become any good, because after all....he had not lost ANYTHING in the situation...only gain..he still have the sleeping bag + the price of his transaction, (and hopefully the regret that he had been greedy over a weaker person....but they seldom are)

(Maybe it was very cold that night and next morning they found the Hobo frozen to death, or maybe the hobo could sell the sleeping bag and have food for another week)

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:46 pm

Rhutobello wrote:The way I see it, then Selfishness can be explained when a person want to take something he/she don't need, and which then goes on the cost of other.

Let me take two situations.

2 person goes down a street. 1 is not rich but have enough money to get through...the other is a hobo with no money what so ever.
Suddenly a guy approaches and offer a free sleeping bag.
The guy who has enough money is fastest in his reply, and he get the sleeping bag.
He has another sleeping bag in the house, and he want to show how nice he is by selling this to someone for half the price of what it is worth.


The next person goes to a shop and buy a sleeping bag.
He has another, not so fancy back home.
He want to be nice, and is putting this up for half the price of it worth.

Was both equal good...or who was selfish?
_________________
Even if the first did not have a sleeping bag at home, he had enough money to buy one...so he took the bag on the cost of the hobo who really needed it. The same selfishness is shown when we try to achieve  personal gain in job, or relationship, by downgrading other, when you know that isn't true...but you can see that the action benefits you.
Just a friendly caveat, gentle folks! :-)
I think we are getting too ambitious and mixing greed with selfishness, somewhat greedily ;-)

The rich guy with the 'grab what I can get' mentality is actually greedy! It perhaps arises from uncertainty if his existing sleeping bag at home will be enough, or will not get stolen someday so he wants a 'back-up' and grabs it. If he lets the hobo take it, he might seem like an unselfish man but unselfishness is not giving charity of 200 dollars when you have a million in bank! It is nice, and good, but not really unselfish act! When in poor countries, parents stay hungry so that their child can eat, because there is only limited food -- that is unselfishness!

Greed may be pretty close to selfishness and we can argue it in the mix, but I see those differently as illustrated above.

As far as morality is concerned, that comes into play really when either our greed or selfishness actually hurts someone, in my opinion. If there is plenty of food at a party and enough for everyone and no one hungry around and I overeat, it is greed but not necessarily immoral because what does not get eaten will be thrown in garbage anyways. Immorality then rests on the shoulder of the host who could have sent the excess food to a place that gives free meals to poor people. Many do that! It is charity, in a senee, and does good, but not selflessness necessarily. You would have thrown the food anyway! Giving what you have in excess is not a very high order of charity, but can be called thoughtful and kind and has good moral value.

Now if at a party there is a plate of cupcakes that are delicious and when we come to the last one left and I eat it. Can that be called selfish or greed? :-)

What do you all think?

Love, Light, Ruminations,

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Post by Rhutobello » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:02 am

Yes...it is all a definition.... It is greed when you grab everything you can......BUT when you grab, and at the same time it goes on the cost on another person...then it is selfishness....in my humble opinion....how else can you define Selfishness
With your food illustration...then no one is hurt, and there is no selfishness involved.
We can't look on it that maybe someone one place or another will be hurt of my action....it is only when we interact directly.....if not....those who had more then those who had less was Selfish....which would be at least 90%  of us.

On the other hand,if the one who delivered the food got less paid because you started to discuss that he was 5 min to late, or it did not look like ""you"" expected...then it is selfishness..because you feed on a person,and you know you are stronger, and therefore putting up ridiculous reason for paying less....even if you also can say it is greed and morally wrong..
Last edited by Rhutobello on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 am

mysbcrs wrote:Somehow I feel selfishness is just a way of manifestation of shadripus. We feel a person to be selfish if he tries to "profit" from all situations. Profit could be fulfilling his/her wants, to be in control of situation, to accumulate wealth or possessions, to assert ownership on something or an expectation that others should respect him/her etc. And of-course we can't ignore Scopios who may be doing all this without us noticing! So why not look at connection between lagnesh, upaachaya houses and kama trikon?

Also, do we look at Arudha or Sathya? Are we, as onlookers, can ever be detached enough to get a grip on Sathya? Doen't our own selfishness force us to see only Arudha?

Well, some loud thinking. Hopefully noisy enough :smt005
Why all shadripus involved in selfishness, dear friend? I find difficulty in seeing any role for ANGER or the last two ripus! Greed on the other hand may have one or two more.

I have always considered the sixth house with its label of Ari/Ripu not just for people who are inimical. Perhaps all shadripus are stored there (just a thought) and secondarily in its bhavat bhavam, the eleventh house. The tenth house from any given house point towards its manifestation-fructification potential. So the 3rd and 8th becomes places to study also when these houses are studied. Malefics who are not appeased and thus rendered more cruel would bring out the negativity more, whereas benefics strong and appeased would tone down the negative tendencies of the houses.

I know to some this may sound like simplistic logic but hopefully it makes some sense, at the very least. I am not greedy! Well not excessively so, and I am selfish about very few things, truly speaking. I have problems loaning my books and fountain pens to others since childhood. My friends used to borrow my books collected from my meagre pocket money with some difficulty, but I had difficulty getting those back :-) Same with pens. I suppose that would fall under MOHA (attachment), but hopefully not under selfishness and/or greed...! I, therefore, thought I will resort to sharing and charity of the contents of the books and the essence by writing articles and just writing and sharing. It is my personal self-imposed jyotish remedy ... ;-)

Love, Light, Confession,

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