Fate and Free Will

[Rhutobello]

Since this topic is about Fate and Free will, it seems to me that it has become my Fate to post some critic view of the trade.

Critic is NEVER "fun", but even so...critic can be valued if read and understood in the right way.

The reason for me to bring in this article now, is because it seems the focus is to put more under the umbrella Vedic Astrology, instead of adjust what already is there, and which I think is suggested in another thread.
__________________________________________

Finally, astrology is probably the most widely practiced superstition and most popular Tooth Fairy science in the world today. Nevertheless, there are many who defend astrology by pointing out how accurate professional horoscopes are. Astrology “works,” it is said, but what does that mean? Basically, to say astrology works means that there are a lot of satisfied customers. There are a lot of satisfied customers because thanks to subjective validation, it is easy to shoehorn any event to fit a chart. To say astrology "works" does not mean that astrology is accurate in predicting human behavior or events to a degree significantly greater than mere chance. There are many satisfied customers who believe that their horoscope accurately describes them and that their astrologer has given them good advice. Such evidence does not prove astrology so much as it demonstrates the Forer effect and confirmation bias. Good astrologers give good advice, but that does not validate astrology. (They also make ambiguous claims like the oracle of Delphi who told Croesus before he attacked Persia: “If you cross the river, a great empire will be destroyed.” So armed, Croesus attacked, resulting in the destruction of his own empire.) There have been several studies that have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can’t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor. Even the former First Lady of the United States, Nancy Reagan, and her husband, Ronald, consulted an astrologer while he was the leader of the free world, demonstrating once again that astrologers have more influence than the stars do.
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If one want to read a bit more around it, and see who have given the statement then the link is here

http://skepdic.com/astrology.html

[Rohiniranjan]

Rishi ji's line of thinking is ok, but the problem is more complex : there are too many things affecring one's religious views : Jupiter, its relatives, lord of 9th house and its relatives, influences on 9th house, all above things in D9 and D20 as well (and D60 ?). And Atmakaaraka ? Surya Kundali ? Kaarakaamsha ?

Dear Vinay ji,

Agreed that there are other points too.. with finer divisions etc etc.

But there are some astrologers who are/were very accurate about such things just from the 12 rasis, without using the atmakraka etc.
{{Rohiniranjan: Charakarakas are not 'new' although they had become shy brides for some time. Even when I began learning jyotish many years ago, they were used by many jyotishis.}}

So I tried to analyse within their ambit in simple terms.
But of course, there are so many parameters for details.

I guess we can further dissect with the help of other variables.
Mar RR jiand you take the lead, and I promise to follow suit.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Since this topic is about Fate and Free will, it seems to me that it has become my Fate to post some critic view of the trade.

Critic is NEVER "fun", but even so...critic can be valued if read and understood in the right way.

The reason for me to bring in this article now, is because it seems the focus is to put more under the umbrella Vedic Astrology, instead of adjust what already is there, and which I think is suggested in another thread.
__________________________________________

Finally, astrology is probably the most widely practiced superstition and most popular Tooth Fairy science in the world today. Nevertheless, there are many who defend astrology by pointing out how accurate professional horoscopes are. Astrology “works,” it is said, but what does that mean? Basically, to say astrology works means that there are a lot of satisfied customers. There are a lot of satisfied customers because thanks to subjective validation, it is easy to shoehorn any event to fit a chart. To say astrology "works" does not mean that astrology is accurate in predicting human behavior or events to a degree significantly greater than mere chance. There are many satisfied customers who believe that their horoscope accurately describes them and that their astrologer has given them good advice. Such evidence does not prove astrology so much as it demonstrates the Forer effect and confirmation bias. Good astrologers give good advice, but that does not validate astrology. (They also make ambiguous claims like the oracle of Delphi who told Croesus before he attacked Persia: “If you cross the river, a great empire will be destroyed.” So armed, Croesus attacked, resulting in the destruction of his own empire.) There have been several studies that have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can’t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor. Even the former First Lady of the United States, Nancy Reagan, and her husband, Ronald, consulted an astrologer while he was the leader of the free world, demonstrating once again that astrologers have more influence than the stars do.
___________________________________

If one want to read a bit more around it, and see who have given the statement then the link is here

http://skepdic.com/astrology.html

Grandpa, what do you think of religion? Which is the bigger superstition? Astrology or religion?

Love, Light, Curiosity  :smt004

[Rohiniranjan]

___________________________________

If one want to read a bit more around it, and see who have given the statement then the link is here

http://skepdic.com/astrology.html

Okay Grandpa, I read the article. I have read similar articles and the sceptic's objections against astrology being a science are tired venting By the way, when a similar article shows up in your research about Jyotish, please remember to pass on the link to me.  :smt004

Love and Light,

[Rohiniranjan]

Rishi ji's line of thinking is ok, but the problem is more complex : there are too many things affecring one's religious views : Jupiter, its relatives, lord of 9th house and its relatives, influences on 9th house, all above things in D9 and D20 as well (and D60 ?). And Atmakaaraka ? Surya Kundali ? Kaarakaamsha ?

Let me add a 'wrinkle' here, Sir_ji. What happens when someone born into christian faith assumes/adopts a different religion? Many cases are available, Mohammad Ali (Anyone remembers his earlier name??). So many christians adopt Hinduism -- Jyotish has a few and other religious groups have examples aplenty, I am sure. Then there are cases of religion conversion after marriage, sometimes it becomes a condition for acceptance into a family.

I must admit that I have not specifically studied such instances from that angle. But since we are discussing religion and astrology, perhaps my wrinkle is not out of context or a diagonal?

Any thoughts, hints...?

Then we shall deal with sceptics!

[RishiRahul]

Rishi ji's line of thinking is ok, but the problem is more complex : there are too many things affecring one's religious views : Jupiter, its relatives, lord of 9th house and its relatives, influences on 9th house, all above things in D9 and D20 as well (and D60 ?). And Atmakaaraka ? Surya Kundali ? Kaarakaamsha ?

Dear Vinay ji,

Agreed that there are other points too.. with finer divisions etc etc.

But there are some astrologers who are/were very accurate about such things just from the 12 rasis, without using the atmakraka etc.
{{Rohiniranjan: Charakarakas are not 'new' although they had become shy brides for some time. Even when I began learning jyotish many years ago, they were used by many jyotishis.}}

So I tried to analyse within their ambit in simple terms.
But of course, there are so many parameters for details.

I guess we can further dissect with the help of other variables.
Mar RR jiand you take the lead, and I promise to follow suit.

Rishi

Dada,

Such astrologers are very very few; out of which I am in touch with 1 now.

This one only uses the 12 rasis and 9 planets. I had to explain the idea of charakaraks and Arudha's to him and he found it very interesting; but he replied that if he learnt it then it would affect his professional judgement as he was used to just the 12 rasis and 9 planets and vimshottari dasa!!

He is like my friend, and shares much.
See.. his concept of the 9 planets in 12 rasis is just too strong. He is very good and confident in what he says, but cant tell complicated things. He is just not interested in that and says he does not need it.

He is one of the very few honest and confident astrologers who sits in the gem shops.

I met him while my visit to gem shops with my chart (feigning that I do not have much idea of astrology, but just learning the abc).  They charge Rs. 100 to 200 for a consultation of about 30 to 40 minutes; and I sometimes go to learn some logic, which is there, but did not strike me.

I could see that there is something(even it is a wee bit) to learn from many of them. Sometimes it they who do not teach me, but their logic or way of sighting things that I learn from.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Rishi ji's line of thinking is ok, but the problem is more complex : there are too many things affecring one's religious views : Jupiter, its relatives, lord of 9th house and its relatives, influences on 9th house, all above things in D9 and D20 as well (and D60 ?). And Atmakaaraka ? Surya Kundali ? Kaarakaamsha ?

Dear Vinay ji,

Agreed that there are other points too.. with finer divisions etc etc.

But there are some astrologers who are/were very accurate about such things just from the 12 rasis, without using the atmakraka etc.
{{Rohiniranjan: Charakarakas are not 'new' although they had become shy brides for some time. Even when I began learning jyotish many years ago, they were used by many jyotishis.}}

So I tried to analyse within their ambit in simple terms.
But of course, there are so many parameters for details.

I guess we can further dissect with the help of other variables.
Mar RR jiand you take the lead, and I promise to follow suit.

Rishi

Dada,

Such astrologers are very very few; out of which I am in touch with 1 now.

This one only uses the 12 rasis and 9 planets. I had to explain the idea of charakaraks and Arudha's to him and he found it very interesting; but he replied that if he learnt it then it would affect his professional judgement as he was used to just the 12 rasis and 9 planets and vimshottari dasa!!

He is like my friend, and shares much.
See.. his concept of the 9 planets in 12 rasis is just too strong. He is very good and confident in what he says, but cant tell complicated things. He is just not interested in that and says he does not need it.

He is one of the very few honest and confident astrologers who sits in the gem shops.

I met him while my visit to gem shops with my chart (feigning that I do not have much idea of astrology, but just learning the abc).  They charge Rs. 100 to 200 for a consultation of about 30 to 40 minutes; and I sometimes go to learn some logic, which is there, but did not strike me.

I could see that there is something(even it is a wee bit) to learn from many of them. Sometimes it they who do not teach me, but their logic or way of sighting things that I learn from.

Rishi

I am not trying to pose as "Holier than Thou!" but since it is important (Ma tells me, gently), I have never been too worried about my chart! Long ago, when I was just getting into jyotish, the Grandpa of my friend, who was a raj-jyotishi or some such label, I was pushed to show him my chart! Actually, he was the first professional one to make my chart, ever! He was a gentle person but did not make the correct chart and there was some confusion about time etc too. Then when all that got sorted out, there was Khot mamaji (my friend Shyam's uncle)! He impressed me with his meticulous record keeping (he was a retired Army Major!). Anyway, by then I was running myself and the personal curiosity and greed had died and while I met Khot_ji several times and enjoyed his hospitality never ever felt the urge to show my chart and pretty much never thereafter, because what would be the point? I was supposed to help others as best as I could/can and Ma was responsible for looking after me! Right?

I heartily recommend that kind of attitude to all astrologer friends! Take it or Leave It (TiOLi)

Regards,

[bhogarmyguru]

hi all... i am new to this forum..and i am browsing briefly through all threads..

I found this thread extremely important...FATE and FREE WILL. I thought i should share my opinion here for discussion

I felt like we have Fate as well as free will. Fate is not a hard groove cut onto a hard metal but its like a branching point.
From birth itself we have a lot of branching probablities and we can choose which way we have to go by our FREE WILL.
And i believe that astrology have something to do with this branching pattern. Astrology can define the prevailing energy
levels according to your fate, that pushes to go into a negative or positive branch of your fate.By free will one can change
the energy levels ie, by doing good one can get enough energy to branch into a positive fate line or vice versa. The remedies of
astrology is that. So everybody born have a 'optimal' fate line in their whole fate tree, do good, think good and speak good.
Know yourself know god and move forward in life to sucess...

Loka samastha sukino bhavamthu....

[Rohiniranjan]

hi all... i am new to this forum..and i am browsing briefly through all threads..

I found this thread extremely important...FATE and FREE WILL. I thought i should share my opinion here for discussion

I felt like we have Fate as well as free will. Fate is not a hard groove cut onto a hard metal but its like a branching point.
From birth itself we have a lot of branching probablities and we can choose which way we have to go by our FREE WILL.
And i believe that astrology have something to do with this branching pattern. Astrology can define the prevailing energy
levels according to your fate, that pushes to go into a negative or positive branch of your fate.By free will one can change
the energy levels ie, by doing good one can get enough energy to branch into a positive fate line or vice versa. The remedies of
astrology is that. So everybody born have a 'optimal' fate line in their whole fate tree, do good, think good and speak good.
Know yourself know god and move forward in life to sucess...

Loka samastha sukino bhavamthu....

Dear friend,

You have 'tuned-in' well!

Fate is like a course-curriculum you have enrolled in!
Then what you do during that semester is somewhat dependent on your FREE-WILL! Personal choice?

The University of UNIVERSE is not black or white! It allows for changing the curriculum but there is a karmic fee involved! It also provides additional tutoring and tutorials and remedial courses etc!

Just like any modern Universities and Colleges and curricula...

Light, Love, University!

[bhogarmyguru]

I agree with you Rohiniranjan

You can change your lifecourse if you have enough Karmic 'money'.

With enough money you can make a new "fate" branch of your your will.

I think only a very few will be doing such things...

[Rohiniranjan]

... or consistently!!

[Rohiniranjan]

Rishi ji's line of thinking is ok, but the problem is more complex : there are too many things affecring one's religious views : Jupiter, its relatives, lord of 9th house and its relatives, influences on 9th house, all above things in D9 and D20 as well (and D60 ?). And Atmakaaraka ? Surya Kundali ? Kaarakaamsha ?

Dear Vinay ji,

Agreed that there are other points too.. with finer divisions etc etc.

But there are some astrologers who are/were very accurate about such things just from the 12 rasis, without using the atmakraka etc.
{{Rohiniranjan: Charakarakas are not 'new' although they had become shy brides for some time. Even when I began learning jyotish many years ago, they were used by many jyotishis.}}

So I tried to analyse within their ambit in simple terms.
But of course, there are so many parameters for details.

I guess we can further dissect with the help of other variables.
Mar RR jiand you take the lead, and I promise to follow suit.

Rishi

Dada,

Such astrologers are very very few; out of which I am in touch with 1 now.

This one only uses the 12 rasis and 9 planets. I had to explain the idea of charakaraks and Arudha's to him and he found it very interesting; but he replied that if he learnt it then it would affect his professional judgement as he was used to just the 12 rasis and 9 planets and vimshottari dasa!!

He is like my friend, and shares much.
See.. his concept of the 9 planets in 12 rasis is just too strong. He is very good and confident in what he says, but cant tell complicated things. He is just not interested in that and says he does not need it.

He is one of the very few honest and confident astrologers who sits in the gem shops.

I met him while my visit to gem shops with my chart (feigning that I do not have much idea of astrology, but just learning the abc).  They charge Rs. 100 to 200 for a consultation of about 30 to 40 minutes; and I sometimes go to learn some logic, which is there, but did not strike me.

I could see that there is something(even it is a wee bit) to learn from many of them. Sometimes it they who do not teach me, but their logic or way of sighting things that I learn from.

Rishi

I am not trying to pose as "Holier than Thou!" but since it is important (Ma tells me, gently), I have never been too worried about my chart! Long ago, when I was just getting into jyotish, the Grandpa of my friend, who was a raj-jyotishi or some such label, I was pushed to show him my chart! Actually, he was the first professional one to make my chart, ever! He was a gentle person but did not make the correct chart and there was some confusion about time etc too. Then when all that got sorted out, there was Khot mamaji (my friend Shyam's uncle)! He impressed me with his meticulous record keeping (he was a retired Army Major!). Anyway, by then I was running myself and the personal curiosity and greed had died and while I met Khot_ji several times and enjoyed his hospitality never ever felt the urge to show my chart and pretty much never thereafter, because what would be the point? I was supposed to help others as best as I could/can and Ma was responsible for looking after me! Right?

I heartily recommend that kind of attitude to all astrologer friends! Take it or Leave It (TiOLi)

Regards,

Rishi,

Just to complete my thought, which I was holding back, not to ruffle some feathers here or press any 'buttons' (my curse in this life-time! ) -- Jyotish being a 'shrouded' subject, there are many many *astrologers* who are really psychics and probably do not need a horoscope to foretell someone's personality or future! One must not force upon these good folks 'techniques' because they really do not need those! For them the horoscope is merely Dumbo's black feather as portrayed in the heart-warming Walt Disney Movie, "DUMBO"!

If they can consistently (more or less) perform their services to humanity, I see nothing wrong in that or even dishonest etc. But they should not be mixed with astro-logers as then we are looking at what is known in scientific examination: A Confounded Sample!

Light, Love, Reality!