CLASSIFICATIONS (?)

[Rohiniranjan]

Dear forum members,

Discussions pertaining to the varna classification of hindus proceeding in a few places reminded me of a niggling query that arose and which I had requested several times of the many fellow jyotishis from time to time but it has sadly remained unanswered. I will ask it again in a few fora to reach a wider readership. It is a serious and sincere query.

Essentially, classifications which is something we human beings love to death. All walks of life have examples of classifications and sorting things. Be it poetry, engineering (civil, electrical, mechanical), literature, science, rituals, archeology, architecture etc etc.


So the question is simply this:

Hindus are born into a family which determines for the society, their varna.

But there is the astrological varna too in Jyotish, which depends on the rashi-tattwa (Jala=brahmin, etc).

There is also the karma (functional role) varna. For instance a brahmin who is a trader (vaishya) or army brigadiar (Kshatriya).

What is the order of importance (hierarchical classification status) between these three varnas:


Family of birth varna
Jyotish varna
Vocational varna


Other members are welcome to respond too, to illuminate and educate me.


Love, Light, Reality!

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Dear forum members,

Discussions pertaining to the varna classification of hindus proceeding in a few places reminded me of a niggling query that arose and which I had requested several times of the many fellow jyotishis from time to time but it has sadly remained unanswered. I will ask it again in a few fora to reach a wider readership. It is a serious and sincere query.

Essentially, classifications which is something we human beings love to death. All walks of life have examples of classifications and sorting things. Be it poetry, engineering (civil, electrical, mechanical), literature, science, rituals, archeology, architecture etc etc.


So the question is simply this:

Hindus are born into a family which determines for the society, their varna.

But there is the astrological varna too in Jyotish, which depends on the rashi-tattwa (Jala=brahmin, etc).

There is also the karma (functional role) varna. For instance a brahmin who is a trader (vaishya) or army brigadiar (Kshatriya).

What is the order of importance (hierarchical classification status) between these three varnas:


Family of birth varna
Jyotish varna
Vocational varna


Other members are welcome to respond too, to illuminate and educate me.


Love, Light, Reality!

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

Yes. Varnas are important in terms of the quality/society of the person, whether the native is a brahmin/hindu or not.
Though vedic astrology was probably brought up by the hindus.

But whatever it is/was, Varnas have its meaning for all.

For simplicity in deciding on:=Varna of a person is determined from his or her Birth Rashi( MOON SIGN ).
1) BRAHMIN VARNA : Birth Rashi is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces
2) KSHATRIYA VARNA :Birth Rashi is Aries or Leo or Sagittarius
3) VAISHYA VARNA:Birth Rashi is Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn
4) SHUDRA VARNA :Birth Rashi is Gemini or Libra or Aquarius
----------------------------------------------------------------
If the above is true:=

No, out of 3 (Family of birth varna); (Jyotish varna); (Vocational varna); I wonder if one should excude the family of birth varna?

Reason being that a family can have 3 children, who have different varnas.
Also that the moon sign position in rasi decides the varnas; moon is the 'manashikata/mentality/mental bent.

Just rambling...

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Dear forum members,

Discussions pertaining to the varna classification of hindus proceeding in a few places reminded me of a niggling query that arose and which I had requested several times of the many fellow jyotishis from time to time but it has sadly remained unanswered. I will ask it again in a few fora to reach a wider readership. It is a serious and sincere query.

Essentially, classifications which is something we human beings love to death. All walks of life have examples of classifications and sorting things. Be it poetry, engineering (civil, electrical, mechanical), literature, science, rituals, archeology, architecture etc etc.


So the question is simply this:

Hindus are born into a family which determines for the society, their varna.

But there is the astrological varna too in Jyotish, which depends on the rashi-tattwa (Jala=brahmin, etc).

There is also the karma (functional role) varna. For instance a brahmin who is a trader (vaishya) or army brigadiar (Kshatriya).

What is the order of importance (hierarchical classification status) between these three varnas:


Family of birth varna
Jyotish varna
Vocational varna


Other members are welcome to respond too, to illuminate and educate me.


Love, Light, Reality!

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

Yes. Varnas are important in terms of the quality/society of the person, whether the native is a brahmin/hindu or not.
Though vedic astrology was probably brought up by the hindus.

But whatever it is/was, Varnas have its meaning for all.

For simplicity in deciding on:=Varna of a person is determined from his or her Birth Rashi( MOON SIGN ).
1) BRAHMIN VARNA : Birth Rashi is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces
2) KSHATRIYA VARNA :Birth Rashi is Aries or Leo or Sagittarius
3) VAISHYA VARNA:Birth Rashi is Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn
4) SHUDRA VARNA :Birth Rashi is Gemini or Libra or Aquarius
----------------------------------------------------------------
If the above is true:=

No, out of 3 (Family of birth varna); (Jyotish varna); (Vocational varna); I wonder if one should excude the family of birth varna?

Reason being that a family can have 3 children, who have different varnas.
Also that the moon sign position in rasi decides the varnas; moon is the 'manashikata/mentality/mental bent.

Just rambling...

Rishi

I wonder if the original classification system suggested for hindus, thousands of years ago, when presumably life was simpler and not so diverse as today was to ensure that both genes and vocational-clarity (who does what) were incorporated. The training and environment factors also worked in favour. All four of the classes of social responsibilities (and function) are still broadly valid. Nearly all vocations can be seen to fit into the four broad categories. Although practiced or applicable to hindus, the classification is universal (in function), if we think about it.

Those two types of varna-classifications therefore represent the functional categories and are societal. If born in a vaisya family one is a vaisya varna. Similarly, the occupation (in today's mixed reality) determines the functional varna. There are some overlaps though. A doctor who gives advice is performing like a brahmin but if he does surgery, he is a kshatriya. Of course a doctor's primary function is to fight diseases, so he is essentially a kshatriya.

Unlike the birth varna, strictly speaking only applicable to hindus, the functional varna and kundali varna are universally applicable and that is what piqued my curiosity. Whether one follows it or not, believes in it or not, the fact remains that each one born has a horoscope, and therefore falls in one of the four varna classifications!

Varnas being essentionally function and responsibilities-dependent, rather than stick someone with a varna-sticker, the varna-consideration can be utilized during dasas and transits etc to align and flow with and not against the prevailing pravritti. And definitely in Prashna! I am thinking aloud; not sure if anyone is following or not

RR

[Votive]

Yes, indeed, Ranjanda. The formal structures flowing in the functional necessities. The roles change not only with dashas and dishas but probably also vary within the span of a day.
When you share the essence of Jyotish or think aloud, you are but a Brahmin, who is willing to give to all.
When you are in the same breath are protecting the younger ones and encouraging them to find for themselves which to them it appears as if you are pushing them away to fend for themselves you are but discharging the responsibility of a kshatriya. As you go on accumulating more knowledge on jyotisha and pull us in to seek our experiences, you are but a vaishya trading!

In a lifetime, we spend years and decades, spending more time on one or other of the varna responsibilities yet other varna dharma (holding together) also keep functioning simultaneously. The key to understanding this is the inclusive mode of appreciation. So as one begins to read the life through the chart it is but inevitable that the some varna gets reflected more prominently than others at a particular flow of time.

I would go on to add that not only the varnas, but the four ashrams and if I may be permitted to speculatively  think aloud , the four yugas perhaps speak through a chart. The social functional, the personal functional, the emotional and the rational functional conjoin or rather spiral in the rhombi like flow with the spiritual too!!

votive

[RishiRahul]

Yes, indeed, Ranjanda. The formal structures flowing in the functional necessities. The roles change not only with dashas and dishas but probably also vary within the span of a day.
When you share the essence of Jyotish or think aloud, you are but a Brahmin, who is willing to give to all.
When you are in the same breath are protecting the younger ones and encouraging them to find for themselves which to them it appears as if you are pushing them away to fend for themselves you are but discharging the responsibility of a kshatriya. As you go on accumulating more knowledge on jyotisha and pull us in to seek our experiences, you are but a vaishya trading!

In a lifetime, we spend years and decades, spending more time on one or other of the varna responsibilities yet other varna dharma (holding together) also keep functioning simultaneously. The key to understanding this is the inclusive mode of appreciation. So as one begins to read the life through the chart it is but inevitable that the some varna gets reflected more prominently than others at a particular flow of time.

I would go on to add that not only the varnas, but the four ashrams and if I may be permitted to speculatively  think aloud , the four yugas perhaps speak through a chart. The social functional, the personal functional, the emotional and the rational functional conjoin or rather spiral in the rhombi like flow with the spiritual too!!

votive

The Nabhasa yogas which is very inner/arising out of the naval/like the skeleton of the body of the person's chart, forms a sort of crux for yogas.

Similarly the vimshottari dasa lord/the other lesser nakshatra dasaa, due to its sign position takes its varna.

Beautifully said about the 4 yugas also takes into account different the likewise flavours.
Thanks for this!

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

Yes, indeed, Ranjanda. The formal structures flowing in the functional necessities. The roles change not only with dashas and dishas but probably also vary within the span of a day.
When you share the essence of Jyotish or think aloud, you are but a Brahmin, who is willing to give to all.
When you are in the same breath are protecting the younger ones and encouraging them to find for themselves which to them it appears as if you are pushing them away to fend for themselves you are but discharging the responsibility of a kshatriya. As you go on accumulating more knowledge on jyotisha and pull us in to seek our experiences, you are but a vaishya trading!

In a lifetime, we spend years and decades, spending more time on one or other of the varna responsibilities yet other varna dharma (holding together) also keep functioning simultaneously. The key to understanding this is the inclusive mode of appreciation. So as one begins to read the life through the chart it is but inevitable that the some varna gets reflected more prominently than others at a particular flow of time.

I would go on to add that not only the varnas, but the four ashrams and if I may be permitted to speculatively  think aloud , the four yugas perhaps speak through a chart. The social functional, the personal functional, the emotional and the rational functional conjoin or rather spiral in the rhombi like flow with the spiritual too!!

votive

Very nice sharing, my dear friend!
But you left out one important piece:

Doing all those three functions, but remembering always and consistently that we all are shoodras (Kshudra ants) who are here to be in service of MA, who rules over all varnas, all ashramas and even Yugas!

Rohiniranjan

[Votive]

I had to deliberately leave that out!!
Dada logon to Shoodra kaise kahen?

votive

[Rohiniranjan]

I had to deliberately leave that out!!
Dada logon to Shoodra kaise kahen?

votive

But that is where the societal "problem" lies, does it not? Even if we individually never advocated, endorsed, or played allegience to 'all that or any of that', a bit o 'sensitivity' and personal guarding remains! Even in the best of us, when we share. :-(

Classifications, are AMORAL! They are neither good nor bad, benefic or malefic, but what sadly makes them so is societal attutude!

Jyotish varna classification, as it always struck me was above and beyond that and simply a classification which seems to work well in practice if one chooses to apply. It is closely yoked to the vocational varna system too, pragmatically-speaking. Hence, the topic piqued my curiosity and I opened this thread. No harm or mischief was intended!

Charles used to insist, "Astrology is AMORAL. Neither MORAL, nor immoral! It just says it as it sees it!". Neither are astrological attributes, factors etc. Just descriptors, in a celestial language that astrology (including Jyotish!) is!

Love and Light,

Ranjanda

[Votive]

Some say, shoodra, the kalyuga  implies darkness, ignorance, avidya, selfishness or rather selfcentredness; so while not going in semantics, classificationa and astrology may be "amoral" but jyotish certainly is the way of light and the path to evolve.

And a Dada who continues to show the light.....

So I refuse to agree with you here!

votive

[Rohiniranjan]

Some say, shoodra, the kalyuga  implies darkness, ignorance, avidya, selfishness or rather selfcentredness; so while not going in semantics, classificationa and astrology may be "amoral" but jyotish certainly is the way of light and the path to evolve.

And a Dada who continues to show the light.....

So I refuse to agree with you here!

votive

My dear friend,

Regardless of what the contemporary cogniscentii (the all KNOWING) claim, insist, the fact that has been observed is simply that in the last many decades, many machines, astra, shastra, drones and so on were discovered (or revealed?), including the BRAHMASTRA that we ALL fear and more than the astra is the concern about the hands which hold those!

Yukteshwar ji had a simpler and shorter interpretation of the STATUS QUO in his short hardcover book, entitled: "The Holy Science", about YUGAs and AYANAMSHAs!

His view of the Yugas was different! According to him we are in Dwapara where we find all those descriptions of astras and technological developments! And diminuition of MORALS and other things that prevailed...!

It is true that Sakshaat GOD is not walking and carrying all of us, as mentioned in Dwapar Scriptures, but is He not? Is He really absent?

Love, Light, Observations!

Rohiniranjan

[Votive]

That is what I am saying too!

[Votive]

Seperately, Yukteshwarji's interpretation of the Yuga theory carries intrinsic merit !
I do not want to enter in those unending controversies raging over the evaluation of the ancient thoughts. Perhaps, if we look at the cycles of nature all around us, there are smaller cycles spiralling into larger ones. Similarly, in the dashas of jyotish, each dasha has several sub and still more sub sub dashas. We are certainly in an ascending cycle, name it as one wants to name it!!

votive

[Rohiniranjan]

Seperately, Yukteshwarji's interpretation of the Yuga theory carries intrinsic merit !
I do not want to enter in those unending controversies raging over the evaluation of the ancient thoughts. Perhaps, if we look at the cycles of nature all around us, there are smaller cycles spiralling into larger ones. Similarly, in the dashas of jyotish, each dasha has several sub and still more sub sub dashas. We are certainly in an ascending cycle, name it as one wants to name it!!

votive

Me neither, my dear friend! I am one with you regarding all these *reforms* going on ad nauseum about "Who said what or who was right, etc"

Evidence is produced repeatedly from what 'written' material survived the ravages of time and its Satans, each of whom came with an expiry date! But all that which even got written down (only a mere fraction of which now survives) was much much later perhaps after the WORD was originally SPOKEN!

As they say, Perceptions define ones Personal Sense of Reality! I have always perceived that to be true, hence it is my sense of Reality

The French philosopher said, "I think therefore I am". That is one of the illusions that plagues modern minds. Eckhard Tolle has elegantly dispelled that MYTH for me, in his seminal book, "The Power of NOW".

I have never had any problems or mental resistance towards all the frameworks ancient or contemporary that we have access to. Each of those was a narrative of a personal port-hole into *reality*. Each useful, each grander than the last one, but perhaps each not quite complete. Humanity (including Great Humans) have been trying to empty the Ocean of Reality using thimbles: some tiny, some very large!

The ocean still exists in front of our eyes as we continue to count its waves, like proverbial Laharon ka Munshi. The ocean is not challenging us, or mocking us over our puniness, but simply inviting us to not waste time in trying to empty it, but rather to enjoy its embrace and swim in it, so that we may refresh ourselves and our perception of THE REALITY: OCEAN!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan