A question on Bhavas

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by RishiRahul » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:21 pm

Spirit Seeker wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 pm
RishiRahul wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:25 pm
More, if you try to understand the philosophy behind the logic. Experience and knowledge teaches us that.

Try to go into the applicability of astrology too.

Good luck.
RishiRahul
नमः शिवाय,
Thanks for your time Rahul ji, I'm passionate & curious learner, I love Philosophy too. I want to pursue this divine ज्योतिष्य शास्रम् & want to do as a free service. :smt056 I'm interested in teaching as well. Presently by God's grace I'm pursuing one of my passion. I'm little curious to know that the ग्रह combinations in my horoscope make me a proficient Astrologer or not!? 🤔
Will post my birth details on the basis of your reply
Thanks
Spirit Seeker

Yo can create a new post in the vedic astrology reading forum, seeking a reading on this.

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:13 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:55 pm
The more the dimensions considered in the pondering and musings, the richer and finer the resolution of the deliberation becomes :-)
In astrology which is multi-factorial and multi-dimensional or perhaps vari-dimensional, this is one important thing to keep in mind! So when even experts sometimes tend to focus on one or two factors and illustrate with 'chosen' examples, subjective bias rears its ugly head...!

Analysis and logic are a good start, but synthesis is what makes the food taste scrumptious, and not simply the recipe as printed or claimed often...!

Best of luck with your exams!
नमः शिवाय,
Rohiniranjan ji, I've just seen your post. I'm done with my Mid exams, Thanks any way
RishiRahul wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:21 pm
Yo can create a new post in the vedic astrology reading forum, seeking a reading on this.

RishRahul
नमः शिवाय,
I did ask, the link is as follows:
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=87205
Thanks

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:54 pm

नमः शिवाय,
A little speculation on why is Ascendant degree chosen as Bhaava Madhya rather than starting point of the bhaava?
Here's my understanding:
We all know that every Zodiac sign has an intrinsic quality, this information I'll be using it as a basis, let's take Cancer as an example, Cancer is a Watery & 1st Moksha trikona sthaanam, it's ruled by Moon, Moon is our Mind (merely our thoughts) as it's a watery house it represents intuition, as intuition needs depth, only in water we could find depth "Easier". Where as if we take earthy signs it's harder to dig (No idea what information lies underneath it). If in fiery signs, going deeper causes little risky because our human body may or may not resist the heat (here also I've no idea what will be underneath, or we can go depth, there might not be depth at all), In Airy signs i don't think so there's depth information lying (You could counteract my statement if this doesn't make a sense).

Also every Graha has innate nature, we know that. So, when ग्रह संक्रमणम् (Graha transition) happens from one Zodiac sign to other zodiac sign it absorbs the energy & the properties & it acts accordingly.

Now, I want to make an analogy, Every body continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion until an external force acts on it to change its state of motion. This is just merely an observation of nature, thus it's law, this was observed by our ancient seers as well but, in modern time it was observed by Isaac Newton, thus it became Newton's 1st law of motion. Now, in a ग्रह transition ग्रह will try to absorb new energy & leaves the other bhaava energy, it requires time & it is in continuous motion. So, leaving complete properties of a previous bhaava needs energy to give away consumes time in a motion. It's not an easy process (taking & giving). Thus i think for Ascendant also i think it works the same way. Thus we've to choose +/- 15° to the Ascendant degree to get the Bhaava extreme degree.

In a simple way, Let's say we've a bad habit (again I've to define what's bad & good, for time being let's assume this in mundane sense) to overcome this bad habit we need will from inside to overcome. Will consumes "Energy" since it's not natural process! it consumes time too, let's say in this process the person is overcoming the so called bad habit, now as time passes in continuous observation we perceive that person is in changing phase from bad to good. Finally the person becomes good. So, during ग्रह transition also it needs some time to leave the previous bhaava properties. So as Ascendant too

Kindly forgive & rectify if I'm in a wrong way, this is just my self speculation.
Thanks for your patience
Any comment is highly welcome.


Finally Rohiniranjan ji, I'm glad to see your writings on wordpress & also from boloji.com
Last edited by Spirit Seeker on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:13 pm

नमः शिवाय,
Did Maharshi Paraashara or any ancient seer talk about this concept in any scripture? If so, Kindly share if some संस्कृतम् verse support the +/- 15° from the Ascendant degree is taken as Bhaava extreme degrees. I think Śrīpati is the one who inculcated this technique in this modern age
Thanks

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:46 pm

Spirit Seeker wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:13 pm
नमः शिवाय,
Did Maharshi Paraashara or any ancient seer talk about this concept in any scripture? If so, Kindly share if some संस्कृतम् verse support the +/- 15° from the Ascendant degree is taken as Bhaava extreme degrees. I think Śrīpati is the one who inculcated this technique in this modern age
Thanks
AFAIK, although not named by name, the scriptural text (actually verbal discourse between Parashar Rishi and Maitraay his student) known as BPHS (several versions are available!) contains in its mathematical section the technique of erecting houses which most know as Sripati Paddhati. It also goes into other things such as determination of attributes and states of planets, their strengths, strengths of houses, etc. Since Parashara is considered to be an ancient Sage, I am assuming that either Sripati was not the 'originator' of the mathematical techniques that go by his name, OR, Sripati was not modern.

Sripati's house system is not dependent on +/- 15 degrees (known as equal house system). Uncannily, these two houses were earlier followed by tropical astrologers and in their system are attributed to Ptolemy (equal), Porphyrii (averaging and inequal) divisions and although the Indian systems treated the sphuta (cuspal degree) as being in the middle of a house, whereas tropicalists treated those sensitive points as the beginning of their houses. In other words, Indians considered the degree as the flame that illuminates the entire house, whereas tropicalists treated those degrees as the entrance door into a house. In first third of 20th century, the originator of a modern paddhati (K.S. Krishnamurthy) recommended using Placidus Houses (a refinement over Porphyrii's averaging system). Placidus system was and still is widely used by western tropicalists. Krishnamurthy followed the western practice of treating the house cusp as the beginning point of houses. AFAIK the followers of his system still use that convention.

A relatively smaller group of folks who follow jyotish system have begun using tropical zodiac. AFAIK, the majority of folks practicing jyotish use sidereal zodiac.

Lots of flavours exist, in other words.
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:28 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:46 pm
Śrīpati was not modern.
नमः शिवाय,
Sorry for the late reply, as Śrīpati belongs to 11th century, BPHS was written some different yuga, w.r.t this Śrīpati is modern i meant.
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:46 pm
AFAIK, although not named by name, the scriptural text (actually verbal discourse between Parashar Rishi and Maitraay his student) known as BPHS (several versions are available!) contains in its mathematical section the technique of erecting houses which most know as Sripati Paddhati.
So, did they include about the concept of +/- 15° is chosen as house extreme's in this?

I thought in this way as well, let's say we went to someone's house (assume rising sign is visiting new Zodiac sign, here), when we're at entrance & standing there & claiming that we've perceived lot of things which are inside is a bit meaningless, isn't it..? To go inside, it takes time. So, our perception (here absorbing new qualities) will be clear after at a distance. So, i think that could be the reason why +/- 15° is chosen as zodiac sign extreme's. Thus Ascendant degree becomes middle of the house!?

Some other's interpretation: (not mine!)
Ascendant degree as starting point will put the ascendant at BHAVA SANDHI. Ascendant will become weak by default then. It is not logical.

So..... any comments...?
any corrections?
Thanks

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Interesting though that the presumably 'older' BPHS discourse contains material that now most associate with Sripati as well as the material now popularly known to be associated with Jaimini, who according to a scholarly member here was the disciple of the illustrious son of Sage Parashar.
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am

In the universe of finding mathematical precision, three paths seem to prevail?

The +/- 15 sound like the median approach of finding central tendency approach in a *range*
The averaging approaches such as Porphyrii/Sripati, Placidian system and many others seem suspiciously like the mean approach of finding central tendency?

Kind of like borders of a or many-a-Nation?

Depending on current political divisions etc, same or similar *people* get divided by political boundaries and the world has seen many examples of such, historically and so on?

The Natural Division seems to simply be one that treats a Rashi as a Celestial boundary? Which is what many siderealists believe in and utilize (A)
The Mathematical/trigonometrical divisioning remains up for greater debate and hence we see across the east and west dozens of house division systems in Europe mostly and a few in India as well. Chinese and Burmese astrologers went to other approaches entirely!

To assuage the GREAT DIVIDE and trying to bring the khichdi to appease all and everyone to share the Celestial Meal together, perhaps the approximating/averaging systems (EHD, SHD, PHD, EPS, ZHD etc) came together...?

The greatest problem with the whole sign sidereal system has been ayanamsha which has varied over a few degrees and it is the cuspal births that have remained the mainstay of or at times the 'bones of contention' of all times...?

The third approach, MODE based is where empirical and practical observations etc come to play? Not fool-proof but on Planet Earth and Mrityu-Loka, the best approach as any practising scientist can vouch! And a lot of reading and continuing education...;-)

THAT is what you must first seek and search and determine, given your brilliant mind and true passion, without worrying about what others found or insist is the ultimate truth whether they learnt that from some teacher or an astrologer-ancestor, whoever...?

All questions and doubts shall diminish and you shall find the path that you are seeking, Seeker...!

Blessed Be...
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am
The third approach, MODE based is where empirical and practical observations etc come to play? Not fool-proof but on Planet Earth and Mrityu-Loka, the best approach as any practicing scientist can vouch! And a lot of reading and continuing education...;-)

THAT is what you must first seek and search and determine, given your brilliant mind and true passion, without worrying about what others found or insist is the ultimate truth whether they learnt that from some teacher or an astrologer-ancestor, whoever...?
नमः शिवाय,
Wonderfully said!, but that's not how Astrology was established, isn't it!? Yes our experience is important. But, let's say in a horoscope something is suppose to happen, the outcome of the happening could be w.r.t a Graha, if we assume that the same happening was affected by another Graha, if our experience say's that this particular outcome will happen only with this Graha, our assumptions could be wrong & I completely believe the fact that our intellect is limited, because it purely function of Karma (dependent on Karma). Should we trust our intellect!? I'd say yes in lot's of cases, but I'd completely believe if it's written in ancient scriptures by ancient seers. See, over here also we could be biased. I completely believe them because they've realized their self. So, there by anything they do is purely correct (Whatever it's)
Even our perception needs intellect (LOL!).
For +/- 15° of house extremities I've completely convinced with the logic i got, some other people have also contributed there own logic & I've applied it, it's showing me correct & I'll not conclude things just because i was correct, I'd 1st follow logic.
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am
The +/- 15° sound like the median approach of finding central tendency approach in a *range*
For a continuous (not discrete) probability distribution, the median is the value such that a number is "equally likely" to fall above or below it. This is defined only for Probabilistic functions & not for the outcome of the events which doesn't have any Probabilities.
In Mathematics it's found that to perceive in a data either discrete or continuous, Median gives a clear picture than Mean (expectation value) & Mode.
But for a distribution these three has their different aim, because we're perceiving these things differently based on their definitions.
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am
All questions and doubts shall diminish and you shall find the path that you are seeking, Seeker...!

Blessed Be...
Thanks a lot :)!

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:15 am

If you can find a copy of the book: Astrology science or superstition, by Eysenck and Nias, you may find it interesting. I am not sure if it is still in print, but perhaps available as a used book resold.
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by RishiRahul » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:00 am

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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Did you see what the seller is charging? $652+
Must be a platinum-plated edition :smt021
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:48 pm

astrology seems to have been built on many assumptions, S.S. Whether it was originally conceived of to be so or indeed was a 'revealed' body of knowledge as many traditional astrologers insisted and then further questions were treated as unwelcome, or worse blamed as heresy -- in the absence of fully transparent documentation or existence of the same, we modern folks can only guess about those origins. Furthermore, the rich mythological symbolisms associated with the body of knowledge that constitutes astrology makes the soup even murkier. As to probabilstic nature of it, one of the modern doyens of Jyotish, Shri B.V. Raman used to insist that astrology is a science of tendencies. So, it might be prudent to not assume very strongly that everything that seems to be an indicator in a chart shall happen and is incontrovertible or a given as per providence.

As to this matter about bhava (house divisions), more specifically, whether to take the entire sign as a house, consider the house as being based on a +/- 15 degree span around lagna degree (and min. and sec. etc for precision), or to use inequal house spans which are primarily created by the earthly coordinates, here is the situation.

The sidereal zodiac is essentially dependent on clusters of actual stars but they are not in the same 3D space, some being closer, while the others very far from one another in the z-axis. We assume that they are in the same plane. Secondly, it is assumed that each sign occupies exactly 30 degrees along the ecliptic. The ecliptic belt is at a tilted axis (actually the earth is!) and so we have the signs of longer ascension complemented by opposite signs of shorter ascension. These assume opposite proportions in the northern vs southern hemisphere.

This 30-degree span assumption is then carried into bhavas which are assumed as 30 degrees each in the equal house division system as well as the whole sign as house system.

Now, those going with the whole sign as house might state that each house is a room in a mansion of 12 signs. Each room is a separate domain. So whether one is at the centre of the room, or at the eastern or western walls, one is in the room and hence influenced by the attributes of the room.

However, and leaving aside the 28th nakshatra matter for simplicity, the mansion does not have 12 rooms but 27 rooms (nakshatras) which overlap several rooms in the 12-room series.

Surely, it cannot be a pick and choose which set of assumptions one would accept, although that is pretty much what seems to prevail or has over time. Further complication arises because there are a variety of opinions about ayanamshas and what those do is shift the planets that are in the sandhi or junction region of signs etc and the closer one is to that region, the more the accuracy of birth time begins to play a role.

Jyotish has many types of timing systems and again there is a source of confoundment through those.

Suddenly, what first appears as a cut and dry, black or white, scenarion begins to reveal itself as 'anything but...'

Anyways, welcome to the gourmet kitchen of astrology!!
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:15 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:12 pm
Did you see what the seller is charging? $652+
Must be a platinum-plated edition :smt021
That said, I must admit that soon thereafter I got an email about a vintage Leica Model 0 (yes!) which was a pre-production prototype model of the world famous camera brand from Leitz optics which was launched in less than 200 units, just to gauge if consumers (Photographers) would welcome that (then) new camera model? This kind of shabby model with all original parts, but an over-all scruffy look and a fixed brassed lens and a make-shift viewfinder which might have been O' so Fashionable and wonderful when it was first launched, sold today's times for 2.4 million Euros...!

I wonder if the latest owner is even a photographer, as opposed to a collector of antiques and would even or EVER take an actual photo with that ancient prototype Leica which the auctioneer guaranteed is a perfectly functional equipment...!


Heretic as it might sound here, could that have become the modern destiny of ancient relics and manuscripts in the domain of divination in present (recent?) times amongst the modern connoisseurs of lost crafts and manuscripts or transcripts (BPHS for instance)?

And, has this been the case for recent decades or even centuries?

Makes me wonder as I have expressed to the misery of devoted folks, the question that has always troubled me: How come in Jyotish we have so many scores of ancient rule-books but not a single one that carried horoscopic examples? Except one which describes half a chart in a rather cursory manner!

Before we apply too much Logic and over-intellectualize out of our devotional outlook, perhaps this just stated must appeal to the 'thinking (and questioning) minds?'
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Re: A question on Bhavas

Post by Spirit Seeker » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:31 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:12 pm
Did you see what the seller is charging? $652+
Must be a platinum-plated edition :smt021
नमः शिवाय,
The cost is Pretty cheaper! I guess :smt022 :smt021

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