which Ayanamsa is correct ??

[arian_1c]

my god...
this article is really thought provoking(however I've still got my doubts)...
i must say, it was easier giving predictions earlier, without so much to think about...
unlike the author of the article, i've had a higher success rate of accurate predictions but then again, it can be just the way human mind selectively remembers the rights from the wrongs....
but, there is something for sure that i would like to admit here...I've never been able to point my finger at something, close my eyes, ponder over it for a while, open my eyes and proclaim the inevitable. It has always been a calculated guess, calculated from various angles, and thought about selflessly. I guess with time as my predictions started coming true I grew more confident but the  rules and axioms I followed were always undocumented and unwritten.
In fact, if I think about it, the only reason I've tried to study more and more of astrology is the fact that there are so many unanswered questions and confusions that I used to face from day to day(I am not an active astrologer these days) while studying a chart, it always came down to believing yourself, listening to your atman and saying what you felt like, but then thats hardly following the rules laid down by our rishis, now is it?

regards to all
sahil

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="olusanya"]While doing research on the use of geocentric positions as opposed to topocentric positions in Vedic astrology I happened upon this article by Avtar Krishen Kaul aryasamaj.org/eng_art/do_celebrate_in_time.htm in which he argues that Vedic astrology cannot be based upon the Nirayana zodiac and is, according to his understanding of the Vedas, based upon the Sayana zodiac. He goes on to say that, "[i]none of the ancient “text books” like Brihat Jatakam, Brihat Parashari, Mansagari, Phaladeepika or Jataka Parijata, etc mentions having used any Ayanamsha[/i]."
I am interested to read what the more experienced members of the forum have to say about this article. Can anyone identify when astrologers began to use an ayanamsha? According to Kaul the use of the different ayanamshas is a 'reformulation'.
I am presently reading Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra and will be diligently looking for any references to ayanamsha. I will do likewise when I begin reading the Brihat Jatakam.[/quote]

The book that you are currently reading, very early on specifically mentions the use of Sayana in a couple of calculations (you must have gone way past those chapters if you are reading it from cover to cover as one must). Since it is mentioned by name, it indicates to me that they were aware of both nirayana and sayana zodiacs.

RR

[olusanya]

while studying a chart, it always came down to believing yourself, listening to your atman and saying what you felt like, but then thats hardly following the rules laid down by our rishis, now is it?

Thank you  Sahil for your thoughtful response. I think you may be on the right track.

I am fairly new to Astrology, in terms of analyzing charts. I have had readings done for me in the past, but I was disappointed because the astrologer didn't tell me anything that I didn't see myself [and I am in no way skilled at analyzing charts], so I decided that I need to be able to read my own chart and rely upon my own understanding of what it is saying.
In the course of my learning I must admit confusion with all of the different systems and methodologies being advocated. To sort it out, for myself, I have calculated my chart using Lahiri, Raman, Yukteshwar, and Tropical. I have had quite a few significant life changes that should be reflected in my chart. I will base my decision of which ayanamsha (or not) to use upon whichever chart best reflects these significant events. In that way my decision will not be based upon a proposed system, but instead on my actual life experiences being reflected in my personal chart.

[olusanya]

The book that you are currently reading, very early on specifically mentions the use of Sayana in a couple of calculations (you must have gone way past those chapters if you are reading it from cover to cover as one must). Since it is mentioned by name, it indicates to me that they were aware of both nirayana and sayana zodiacs.

Pranaam RR,

I am currently on chapter 3 [planetary strengths], so far I have not read any references to sayana or ayanamsha. However, if you read the article, the author states that the classics mention sayana, it is ayanamsha that he says is not mentioned.
If you can refer me to where ayanamsha is actually mention in the BPHS I would be very appreciative.
By the way, I read every book from beginning to end, regardless of subject.

Shanti

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="olusanya"][quote]The book that you are currently reading, very early on specifically mentions the use of Sayana in a couple of calculations (you must have gone way past those chapters if you are reading it from cover to cover as one must). Since it is mentioned by name, it indicates to me that they were aware of both nirayana and sayana zodiacs. [/quote]

Pranaam RR,

I am currently on chapter 3 [planetary strengths], so far I have not read any references to sayana or ayanamsha. However, if you read the article, the author states that the classics mention sayana, it is ayanamsha that he says is not mentioned.
If you can refer me to where ayanamsha is actually mention in the BPHS I would be very appreciative.
By the way, I read every book from beginning to end, regardless of subject.

Shanti[/quote]

Dear Shanti ji,

I have read that article. It is very well written. Since you are reading the books new and thoroughly, if you find the reference to ayanamsha, please let us know. Until then, prudence demands that I will continue to use ayanamsha, since I am not as frustrated by some jyotishis who find jyotish as practiced not good enough for their needs ;-)

That said, let me repeat something: Jyotish as given in classics is not complete. Classics, bar none, sound like recipe books, a glossary of rules some organized, others haphazard. Very rarely is it indicated what to do with those rules. Some modern writers like Rao, Raman, Bepin Behari, Chowdhry, Krishnamurthy have written commentaries on how to use the rules but given the different approaches one wonders if they all went to the same school or different ones (stated respectfully lest someone consider that too cheeky).

Generally speaking I have found individuals who apply rules verbatim or too religiously become very disillusioned with astrology. Mr. Kaul used an example of Indira Gandhi and how his prediction failed in the case of her assasination and that turned things for him and his journey began. I would be very careful in the case of celebrities, particularly in India where charts are deliberately kept hidden or even distorted. KN Rao has written on that topic on many occasions. The latest I read was about Aishwarya Rai whose relative called Mr, Rao and the horoscope (presumably the real one) was very different from the kanya lagna chart popular on the internet.

Peace... and please carry on your search and let us know if something good emerges for it ...

RR

[olusanya]

let me repeat something: Jyotish as given in classics is not complete. Classics, bar none, sound like recipe books, a glossary of rules some organized, others haphazard. Very rarely is it indicated what to do with those rules. Some modern writers like Rao, Raman, Bepin Behari, Chowdhry, Krishnamurthy have written commentaries on how to use the rules but given the different approaches one wonders if they all went to the same school or different ones (stated respectfully lest someone consider that too cheeky

Generally speaking I have found individuals who apply rules verbatim or too religiously become very disillusioned with astrology.).

Greetings RR ji,

I will keep everything you have said in mind during my learning process. I subscribe to many Jyotish forums [including your newly formed Parashara-Light-User-Group] and have seen what you describe demonstrated many times. It can be very frustrating to those of us who are new to Vedic astrology, as we seek to separate the basic structure and methods from the add-ons or reformulations.
I must also say that I have found your tutorials at Crystal Pages to be very helpful in my studies.
I will definitely keep the forum informed as to what I find during my research into this question.
Thank you for all of your input.

I ended my previous post with Shanti as a means of saying, "Peace", my name is actually Olusanya

[Rohiniranjan]

Dear Olusanya ji,

Thanks for clarifying my confusion re your name :-)
It gives me immense pleasure that some of my writings are found useful by some individuals. And more importantly, it makes sense to some, though not all individuals -- of course :-)

I have never considered astrology as 'the' definitive oracle, therefore I do not get upset when it does not provide 100% answers. It is a language to me and not a science or technical subject. It is a way of interpreting the quantum core of creation, fancifully called drums of destiny by some and being an interpretive process can vary a lot even in the same individuals jyotishi from time to time. I am not sure if you are in agreement regarding that because your personal viewpoint may be very different from mine.

There is definitely a technical and thus 'transferable' component in jyotish but there are so many tools available that it does get confusing at times. Whenever I have experienced that state of being overwhelmed -- I have carried out a simple CTRL-ALT-DELETE (knows as three finger salute in some circles and soft reset in others! I have in my software a screen which has the rashi (with degrees), navamsha, pada, current transit chart, and a sudarshan chakra. I use this screen as a back to basics and build up details again!

Often, looking at a simplified layout gives answers and hints that are lost when the screen is loaded with information. I also use an even simpler procedure at times (less now than before). I used to draw the chart by hand, slowly, paying attention to what I am writing and this hardcopy version was useful at times. These rituals work for me, and I am thankful that I found them or was given at the time when I needed them, from whoever is watching over me and wants me to stay with jyotish.

RR

[quote="olusanya"][quote]let me repeat something: Jyotish as given in classics is not complete. Classics, bar none, sound like recipe books, a glossary of rules some organized, others haphazard. Very rarely is it indicated what to do with those rules. Some modern writers like Rao, Raman, Bepin Behari, Chowdhry, Krishnamurthy have written commentaries on how to use the rules but given the different approaches one wonders if they all went to the same school or different ones (stated respectfully lest someone consider that too cheeky

Generally speaking I have found individuals who apply rules verbatim or too religiously become very disillusioned with astrology.).[/quote]

Greetings RR ji,

I will keep everything you have said in mind during my learning process. I subscribe to many Jyotish forums [including your newly formed Parashara-Light-User-Group] and have seen what you describe demonstrated many times. It can be very frustrating to those of us who are new to Vedic astrology, as we seek to separate the basic structure and methods from the add-ons or reformulations.
I must also say that I have found your tutorials at Crystal Pages to be very helpful in my studies.
I will definitely keep the forum informed as to what I find during my research into this question.
Thank you for all of your input.

[i]I ended my previous post with Shanti as a means of saying, "Peace", my name is actually Olusanya [/i];-)[/quote]

[RishiRahul]

I am quite new to the forum, and totally unaware ofthe ayanamsa bit until Swethaji apprised me about it.
Out of the so many ayanamsas available in our planet Earth, in my experience 4 seems very authentic with Vimshottari and Yogini dasas. 3 of them are Indian made ayanamsas  namely 1)B.V. Ramans 2) K.P.3)N.C.Lahiri. The 4th one is by a Western. It is Fagan ayanamsa.

Considering that the K.P. system of seeing with the help of star and sublord needs proper degrees and minutes for correct predictions,( also the nos 1 - 249 horary method) I have seen that the N.C. and K.P. ayanamsa works best with it.
Someone could research between the 2 ayanamsas while usingthe K.P.horary(1 - 249 method). They work very well with yogini dasa too. Please note that the difference between them is ony 7 minutes, which is negligible when compared to the other above mntiones ayanamsas.

The ayanamsha of B.V.Raman is not incorrect too, but in fact quite accurate, but the method of giving readings with it needs a slight adaptation. To the best I can explain,by writing in this esteemed forum, is that the natural qualities/ karak qualities of the planets reflect better using this dasa. Sharp changes in mentality of the native is seen when he experiences dasa/antardasa changes while using B.V. Raman ayanamsa.
One more thing: Say if Saturn Mahadasa starts in June 2007 for a native as per N.C./KP ayanamsa, then Saturn dasa will arrive as per B.V. ayanamsa ( 9 months/13 months/24 months) before June 2007( depending on the starting dasa and antardasa. Suppose as per B.V. ayanamsa Saturn dasa started in Sept 2006:= The Saturns slowing down effect was cast invisibly from that period, like a shadow in the natives life from then. From june 2007 saturns dasa will start taking the functional qualities of Saturn.
A life progession will be noted when we follow antardasas while using Fagan ayanamsa and can judje the where and how the dasa will land us.

This is what I am able to share with you in writing. The rest has to be explained properly with actual charts. Some times what we try to explain in writing is not fully understood by the readers as we have different skils in communicating abilities.

Till I hear from you all.
RishiRahul

While using N.C./K.P. we, naturally use the natural and functional qualities of planets as mentioned in hindu astrology.
Again

[Rohiniranjan]

Actually someone recently on this or some jyotish forum was proposing that *all* jyotishis are sadly mistaken since in no jyotish text is nirayana mentioned, let alone ayanamsha! Hence, his/her submission was that all should use sayana ayanamsha. I do not recall clearly if the individual promised to post some evidence (charts, analysis) or not, but sure would make the theory go ahead rather than becoming yet another senstational suggestion that fades away like many do.

Were that to be the case, then all worries will be over since there are very accurate equations for sayana/tropical positions available in astrophysics (JPL routines, etc).

I wait with baited breath ...

RR

[quote="RishiRahul"]I am quite new to the forum, and totally unaware ofthe ayanamsa bit until Swethaji apprised me about it.
Out of the so many ayanamsas available in our planet Earth, in my experience 4 seems very authentic with Vimshottari and Yogini dasas. 3 of them are Indian made ayanamsas  namely 1)B.V. Ramans 2) K.P.3)N.C.Lahiri. The 4th one is by a Western. It is Fagan ayanamsa.

Considering that the K.P. system of seeing with the help of star and sublord needs proper degrees and minutes for correct predictions,( also the nos 1 - 249 horary method) I have seen that the N.C. and K.P. ayanamsa works best with it.
Someone could research between the 2 ayanamsas while usingthe K.P.horary(1 - 249 method). They work very well with yogini dasa too. Please note that the difference between them is ony 7 minutes, which is negligible when compared to the other above mntiones ayanamsas.

The ayanamsha of B.V.Raman is not incorrect too, but in fact quite accurate, but the method of giving readings with it needs a slight adaptation. To the best I can explain,by writing in this esteemed forum, is that the natural qualities/ karak qualities of the planets reflect better using this dasa. Sharp changes in mentality of the native is seen when he experiences dasa/antardasa changes while using B.V. Raman ayanamsa.
One more thing: Say if Saturn Mahadasa starts in June 2007 for a native as per N.C./KP ayanamsa, then Saturn dasa will arrive as per B.V. ayanamsa ( 9 months/13 months/24 months) before June 2007( depending on the starting dasa and antardasa. Suppose as per B.V. ayanamsa Saturn dasa started in Sept 2006:= The Saturns slowing down effect was cast invisibly from that period, like a shadow in the natives life from then. From june 2007 saturns dasa will start taking the functional qualities of Saturn.
A life progession will be noted when we follow antardasas while using Fagan ayanamsa and can judje the where and how the dasa will land us.

This is what I am able to share with you in writing. The rest has to be explained properly with actual charts. Some times what we try to explain in writing is not fully understood by the readers as we have different skils in communicating abilities.

Till I hear from you all.
RishiRahul

While using N.C./K.P. we, naturally use the natural and functional qualities of planets as mentioned in hindu astrology.
Again[/quote]

[RishiRahul]

The above matter regarding different values of Ayanamsa was researched by me( as I had found the ayanamsa factor confusing) over the years since 1984, intermittently because mostly one is surrounded by Maya in  matters, professional matters family etc, besides the time spent in handling the imperfections and even perfections of life.
So it is not completely  researched with full concentration.
Therefore can I urge this forum members to do better justice to it please.
RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]The above matter regarding different values of Ayanamsa was researched by me( as I had found the ayanamsa factor confusing) over the years since 1984, intermittently because mostly one is surrounded by Maya in  matters, professional matters family etc, besides the time spent in handling the imperfections and even perfections of life.
So it is not completely  researched with full concentration.
Therefore can I urge this forum members to do better justice to it please.
RishiRahul[/quote]

RR: No Rishirahul ji -- I was referring to the postings which refer to one Mr. Kaul's writings somewhere in which the use of nirayana values was questioned on the basis of these not being specifically referred to in jyotish classics. Like I mentioned -- jyotish classics refer to Sayana values specifically only at some places and do not mention which value to be used in the remaining 99+% of places. To me this indicates that Sayana is to be used only at a few places and hence was specifically referred to in the texts. IF ALL of jyotish were to be done using sayana or tropical values, it would not make any sense why a few specific places alone would mention Sayana.

On the other hand, since in a few places Sayana was specifically mentioned, it is obvious that some other value (other than SAYANA) was supposed to be used for nearly all of jyotish! What value would this be? Certainly not Sayana which can be eliminated safely based on its specific reference only at a few places! Does this make sense? It does to me!

Now the quandry that remains is what 'value' this non-sayana metameter must be? I prefer to use a value that is between Raman and Lahiri but others may have their own preferences!

I know it is a bit repetitive but wanted to state my reasons clearly and then move on to other more useful topics for discussion. This ongoing discussion about real and imaginary ayanamshas, no matter written how succinctly by jyotishis and others is really a non-sequiter as far as I am concerned.

RR

[RishiRahul]

I did think tht you did support the ayansa views. I did not think otherwise at all.
One probably does not follow that Sayana values are important too. Why, I do not know.... probably because I have dabbled much with astrlogy, but do not have knowledge of astronomy.
If one tries to use Nirayana values while reading Sun Signs one would totally misfire their predictions.
One dabbling with the hindu dasa systems would misfire their predictions if they use Sayana.
So sayana and  the various Nirayana values have their own posiions in stature. Only that we tend to midjudge thaem.
We should never misjudge the researches of the said masters who have researched this stuff for so much time. Only their application is different.

The above is not meant just for you sir, but for all the elated ones at this forum.
RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

Since there seems to be room for misinterpretation -- please let me clarify! I am not saying that Sayana zodiac does not serve a purpose! Quite the contrary! Even for jyotishis, sayana zodiac has its limited use, in calculating balas, etc. So one cannot simply do away with the sayana zodiac even if one were a jyotishi. That said, over-inclusion of sayana in jyotish interpretive framework is probably not a straightforward thing and can lead to confusion and so on. Also, it is not as black and white as you tried to put, i.e., sunsigns will not work without sayana. Most of the sunsign observations that are used by tropical astrologers are not from their classics! Most of these were empirically studied (through observation) and therefore work well within the sayana framework. That said, please note that if you try to use the tropical framework in sudarshana chart analysis, you would be skirting on uncertain terrain. Again, if that is what you wish to do and find useful in your experience, please don't let me get in your way! I do not like to tell people how they should dance their astrological dance or how they explain to their own satisfaction the music of the spheres.

Please just let me point out things as I see them:
Tropical astrology leans heavily on sun-signs as key driving factors, it also uses heavily the interplanetary relationships, such as aspects and midpoints -- these two latter mainstays of analysis are ayanamsha-insensitive. This itself tells one that such is the beauty of the system of divination (which includes more than just astrology) that one can acquire meaningful information from different angles, as long as one does not mix and match without discretion and care.

On the other hand, the sidereal system utilizes a different system of interplanetary relationships, depending on sign positions, nakshatra sambandhas through yogas and so on, something which may not work using the sayana zodiac. I have not studied that extensively (yogas using sayana zodiac) but since you are into experimenting (presumably?) I would encourage you to plunge in and see if it works, and either way -- invite you to report back your findings so that we all can learn and question you on specifics and the examples that you will provide and so on, which is the only way learning can continue.

I realize that all that takes a lot of time and is hard gruelling work. It is a lot convenient to toss a bottom line which may make people sit up but the interest quickly fades away as no corroborating evidence is forthcoming soon after. I have seen this kind of pattern now for decades in many areas of astrology and sincerely hope that you are different and will persue and share.

Thanks

Rohiniranjan


[quote="RishiRahul"]I did think tht you did support the ayansa views. I did not think otherwise at all.
One probably does not follow that Sayana values are important too. Why, I do not know.... probably because I have dabbled much with astrlogy, but do not have knowledge of astronomy.
If one tries to use Nirayana values while reading Sun Signs one would totally misfire their predictions.
One dabbling with the hindu dasa systems would misfire their predictions if they use Sayana.
So sayana and  the various Nirayana values have their own posiions in stature. Only that we tend to midjudge thaem.
We should never misjudge the researches of the said masters who have researched this stuff for so much time. Only their application is different.

The above is not meant just for you sir, but for all the elated ones at this forum.
RishiRahul[/quote]

[RishiRahul]

Thank you for the interesting clarifications. I will try to research if the Vedic astrology yogas work with the Sayana Zodiac.
I hope I have understood you clearly.
One question please:= Should we try to inspect Vedic yogas from the Rasi or the Bhava charts? If you could kindly mention your views regarding this, it would help me in my research too.
Thank you in anticipation.
RishiRahul.

[Rohiniranjan]

For me rashi is the bhava. Have written numerous times about it and do not wish to use anymore bandwidth :-)

RR


[quote="RishiRahul"]Thank you for the interesting clarifications. I will try to research if the Vedic astrology yogas work with the Sayana Zodiac.
I hope I have understood you clearly.
One question please:= Should we try to inspect Vedic yogas from the Rasi or the Bhava charts? If you could kindly mention your views regarding this, it would help me in my research too.
Thank you in anticipation.
RishiRahul.[/quote]