"Now against that backdrop, strange as it may sound, jyotish is not a black and white discipline where a certain combination would ALWAYS work in a predictable manner. This complicates and makes it even more difficult to pin down the accurate ayanamsha based on events or dashas or vargas, an approach used by some jyotishis. The evidence overall is rather patchy, sketchy and not irrefutable, overall. Anyone who seriously looks into the ayanamsha quandry with charts etc will soon see how much interpretive overlap there is in jyotish and how it can make it extra difficult to pick one ayanamsha. In general the tendency had been for individuals to pick their own or a few charts and if most things fit, they go with that one. " ..........
Exactly, the interpretive overlap will always allow individuals to pick up their own values and stick with them.
What works for A, does not work for B.
While there may not be a final or a single answer, there is not enough effort to even ponder over the issue. Therefore, any discussion on the issue is limited to the few individuals who support a particular ayanamsha and root for it rather agressively and even threateningly. Alternatively, others say, well this is mine, I find it good and do not get drawn into discussions, maybe since those are likely to be a waste of time and energy.
The fact remains that this is one of the very basic unresolved issues in Jyotisha and that is why it crops up again in every Jyotish forum once a few months.
Votive
Ayanamsa
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Rohiniranjan
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[quote="Votive"]"Exactly, the interpretive overlap will always allow individuals to pick up their own values and stick with them.
What works for A, does not work for B.
While there may not be a final or a single answer, there is not enough effort to even ponder over the issue. Therefore, any discussion on the issue is limited to the few individuals who support a particular ayanamsha and root for it rather agressively and even threateningly. Alternatively, others say, well this is mine, I find it good and do not get drawn into discussions, maybe since those are likely to be a waste of time and energy.
The fact remains that this is one of the very basic unresolved issues in Jyotisha and that is why it crops up again in every Jyotish forum once a few months."
Votive[/quote]
Exactly! And there is another parallel phenomenon too that I had been thinking about and lamenting over and perhaps will add to my 'Namastey' journal one of these days before I go to bed. I am seriously concerned by the beginners in jyotish who for the most part, sadly, have chosen to take the easier path. This path overutilizes unbriddled imagination and 'stream of consciousness' in an unbalanced manner since it is not counter-weighed by dogged pursuit of real charts and their study. While this mode of jyotish-charchaa is very useful and extremely clarifying, it can be dangerous in the hands of a neophyte with not enough familiarity with case studies and charts studied carefully like a scientist, comparing delineations with the life of the nativity. Ongoing comparison between the expected and the observed!
There is no alternative really, if one is serious and sincere about jyotish, although Jyotish is not the only way of divining, of course!
RR
What works for A, does not work for B.
While there may not be a final or a single answer, there is not enough effort to even ponder over the issue. Therefore, any discussion on the issue is limited to the few individuals who support a particular ayanamsha and root for it rather agressively and even threateningly. Alternatively, others say, well this is mine, I find it good and do not get drawn into discussions, maybe since those are likely to be a waste of time and energy.
The fact remains that this is one of the very basic unresolved issues in Jyotisha and that is why it crops up again in every Jyotish forum once a few months."
Votive[/quote]
Exactly! And there is another parallel phenomenon too that I had been thinking about and lamenting over and perhaps will add to my 'Namastey' journal one of these days before I go to bed. I am seriously concerned by the beginners in jyotish who for the most part, sadly, have chosen to take the easier path. This path overutilizes unbriddled imagination and 'stream of consciousness' in an unbalanced manner since it is not counter-weighed by dogged pursuit of real charts and their study. While this mode of jyotish-charchaa is very useful and extremely clarifying, it can be dangerous in the hands of a neophyte with not enough familiarity with case studies and charts studied carefully like a scientist, comparing delineations with the life of the nativity. Ongoing comparison between the expected and the observed!
There is no alternative really, if one is serious and sincere about jyotish, although Jyotish is not the only way of divining, of course!
RR
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RishiRahul
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Absolutely correct.
Regarding the ayanamsha bit, I have a story to tell. But I must switch to palmistry for that.
While giving serious predictions t clients sometimes I face a problem. Throught astrology first I attempt to pinpoint events using so many kinds of dasa and are generally successful.
But the problem faced osten/sometimes is understanding the exact nature of events; for which I use palmistry.
To undestand the nature of events more deeply I have a formula devised with the help of numerology and palmitry, which goes to say something like x/a = y/b, where x can be the ages taken for the full lenght of the Western life line according to many western and Indian palmists. Some take 91, some, 72, some, 108, some 120 years.
So a point in the life line which is cut, tampered ith, has rising lines, influence lines, drooping lines etc. corroborrates with the same portion of the life line at different ages.
Thus I see a kind of progression in the offing. These progressions help to be able to achieve a better and a closer view to the nature of change; and my am more than happy with this method of approch as it is precise.... of course, could be more.
The intention of sharing all this is regarding ayanamsa.
The so many ayanamsas are like progressions of a sort. Each ayanamsa applied to a certain number of charts is bound to give results.
So from this it could be deduced that all/most ayanamsas are correct. NO IS THE ANSWER.
THE ANSWER IS: All/MOST AYANAMSAS MAY BE CORRECTLY APPLIED, giving different facets/views of a story.
In numerolgy too we see the prograssion of numbers, and there are a few systems of numerology. The question is that :WHICH ONE IS CORRECT. THE QUESTION SHOULD BE: WHICH ONE IS MORE CORRECT.
With bated breath,
RishiRahul
Regarding the ayanamsha bit, I have a story to tell. But I must switch to palmistry for that.
While giving serious predictions t clients sometimes I face a problem. Throught astrology first I attempt to pinpoint events using so many kinds of dasa and are generally successful.
But the problem faced osten/sometimes is understanding the exact nature of events; for which I use palmistry.
To undestand the nature of events more deeply I have a formula devised with the help of numerology and palmitry, which goes to say something like x/a = y/b, where x can be the ages taken for the full lenght of the Western life line according to many western and Indian palmists. Some take 91, some, 72, some, 108, some 120 years.
So a point in the life line which is cut, tampered ith, has rising lines, influence lines, drooping lines etc. corroborrates with the same portion of the life line at different ages.
Thus I see a kind of progression in the offing. These progressions help to be able to achieve a better and a closer view to the nature of change; and my am more than happy with this method of approch as it is precise.... of course, could be more.
The intention of sharing all this is regarding ayanamsa.
The so many ayanamsas are like progressions of a sort. Each ayanamsa applied to a certain number of charts is bound to give results.
So from this it could be deduced that all/most ayanamsas are correct. NO IS THE ANSWER.
THE ANSWER IS: All/MOST AYANAMSAS MAY BE CORRECTLY APPLIED, giving different facets/views of a story.
In numerolgy too we see the prograssion of numbers, and there are a few systems of numerology. The question is that :WHICH ONE IS CORRECT. THE QUESTION SHOULD BE: WHICH ONE IS MORE CORRECT.
With bated breath,
RishiRahul
RishiRahul wrote:Absolutely correct.
Regarding the ayanamsha bit, I have a story to tell. But I must switch to palmistry for that.
While giving serious predictions t clients sometimes I face a problem. Throught astrology first I attempt to pinpoint events using so many kinds of dasa and are generally successful.
But the problem faced osten/sometimes is understanding the exact nature of events; for which I use palmistry.
To undestand the nature of events more deeply I have a formula devised with the help of numerology and palmitry, which goes to say something like x/a = y/b, where x can be the ages taken for the full lenght of the Western life line according to many western and Indian palmists. Some take 91, some, 72, some, 108, some 120 years.
So a point in the life line which is cut, tampered ith, has rising lines, influence lines, drooping lines etc. corroborrates with the same portion of the life line at different ages.
Thus I see a kind of progression in the offing. These progressions help to be able to achieve a better and a closer view to the nature of change; and my am more than happy with this method of approch as it is precise.... of course, could be more.
The intention of sharing all this is regarding ayanamsa.
The so many ayanamsas are like progressions of a sort. Each ayanamsa applied to a certain number of charts is bound to give results.
So from this it could be deduced that all/most ayanamsas are correct. NO IS THE ANSWER.
THE ANSWER IS: All/MOST AYANAMSAS MAY BE CORRECTLY APPLIED, giving different facets/views of a story.
In numerolgy too we see the prograssion of numbers, and there are a few systems of numerology. The question is that :WHICH ONE IS CORRECT. THE QUESTION SHOULD BE: WHICH ONE IS MORE CORRECT.
With bated breath,
RishiRahul
Rishiji,
Given the variables and all those imponderable issues, a Jyotishi, with clean heart can give a prediction and it need not necessarily meet very stringent conditions.
I have always felt that a "most likely" solution of ayanamsha may be available if one focuses on natural cycles. Maybe in all those translations vital links have been obiliterated. I also feel that +/_ 2 minutes of Lahiri or Chitra Paksha cover all the popular values. Somewhere, Sri Yukteshwar's thoughts hold the key to unravel and reach closer and closer.
Votive
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RishiRahul
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Rishiji,
Given the variables and all those imponderable issues, a Jyotishi, with clean heart can give a prediction and it need not necessarily meet very stringent conditions.
I have always felt that a "most likely" solution of ayanamsha may be available if one focuses on natural cycles. Maybe in all those translations vital links have been obiliterated. I also feel that +/_ 2 minutes of Lahiri or Chitra Paksha cover all the popular values. Somewhere, Sri Yukteshwar's thoughts hold the key to unravel and reach closer and closer.
Votive......................................................... quote.
Dear Votive,
Which one? + or - of Lahiri/Chtrapaksha?
What is the value of Yukteshwar ayanamsa? What did he say?
I haved tried to use the Ayanamsa used by RohiniRanjanji, which is 50 mites less than Dr. B.V.Ramans and found better results than most other.
Expantantly,
RishiRahul
Given the variables and all those imponderable issues, a Jyotishi, with clean heart can give a prediction and it need not necessarily meet very stringent conditions.
I have always felt that a "most likely" solution of ayanamsha may be available if one focuses on natural cycles. Maybe in all those translations vital links have been obiliterated. I also feel that +/_ 2 minutes of Lahiri or Chitra Paksha cover all the popular values. Somewhere, Sri Yukteshwar's thoughts hold the key to unravel and reach closer and closer.
Votive......................................................... quote.
Dear Votive,
Which one? + or - of Lahiri/Chtrapaksha?
What is the value of Yukteshwar ayanamsa? What did he say?
I haved tried to use the Ayanamsa used by RohiniRanjanji, which is 50 mites less than Dr. B.V.Ramans and found better results than most other.
Expantantly,
RishiRahul
Rishiji,
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive
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Rohiniranjan
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You raised some good points. A short answer:
Ayanamsha to me is like the petrol or gasoline in a car. Jyotish needs ayanamsha for 'moving' but it is not too hung up on the exact type of gasoline or its octane content etc. It is like Shaktiman truck that will run on petrol, diesel, kerosene and even ghee in a crunch!
Since I have found a good petrol pump that will not run out of fuel in future as far as I can see it, I do not spend time obsessively in trying to learn the ins and outs of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing of different fractionation products of black gold (as petroleum is called). In other words when it comes to ayanamsha, I am a consumer, a user and not a researcher or explorer.
I hope you understand why I sound so contented and relieved when I talk about ayanamsha ;-)
RR
Ayanamsha to me is like the petrol or gasoline in a car. Jyotish needs ayanamsha for 'moving' but it is not too hung up on the exact type of gasoline or its octane content etc. It is like Shaktiman truck that will run on petrol, diesel, kerosene and even ghee in a crunch!
Since I have found a good petrol pump that will not run out of fuel in future as far as I can see it, I do not spend time obsessively in trying to learn the ins and outs of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing of different fractionation products of black gold (as petroleum is called). In other words when it comes to ayanamsha, I am a consumer, a user and not a researcher or explorer.
I hope you understand why I sound so contented and relieved when I talk about ayanamsha ;-)
RR
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RishiRahul
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Votive wrote:Rishiji,
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive
Votive ji,
Thank you much for the prompt reply.
A clarification please. Since I do not understand too much about the astronomical parts which help to arrive at arrive at ayanamsas value, and as RohiniRanjanji states that I am a consumer, and need not know about the design, I absolutely agree and never found the need to understand such details.
Simply do tell me that from Raman ayanamsa, the change to Yukteshwar should be -4 or +4 minutes, like for changing to R.R. ji we minus 50 minutes from Raman.
Secondly tha suggested one should be +2 or - 2 from N.C. Lahiris.
Thirdly I would be gratefull if you dig out the papers please.
Fourthly,
Do you have an alter ego like Superman had?
Anticipatingly,
RisiRahul
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RishiRahul
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rohiniranjan wrote:You raised some good points. A short answer:
Ayanamsha to me is like the petrol or gasoline in a car. Jyotish needs ayanamsha for 'moving' but it is not too hung up on the exact type of gasoline or its octane content etc. It is like Shaktiman truck that will run on petrol, diesel, kerosene and even ghee in a crunch!
Since I have found a good petrol pump that will not run out of fuel in future as far as I can see it, I do not spend time obsessively in trying to learn the ins and outs of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing of different fractionation products of black gold (as petroleum is called). In other words when it comes to ayanamsha, I am a consumer, a user and not a researcher or explorer.
I hope you understand why I sound so contented and relieved when I talk about ayanamsha
RR
Daer Dada,
You not only have a wonderful knowledge of astrology, but have a superb command over expressions.
Your short reply answered too much; not only for me but for the other readers too.... if they are willing to understand.
Again Ayanamsa is neccessary not so much for the dasa and bhuthis but for checking out the charakarakas, specially atmakaraka.
The person who carried forward the research on Jaimini studies was Sanjay Rath and his Grandfather, I think.
He follows either Lahiri ayanamsa or something close to it. So the + or - from Chitrapaksha is important for my research.
Please help me.
RishiRahul
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Rohiniranjan
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[quote="RishiRahul"][quote="rohiniranjan"]You raised some good points. A short answer:
Ayanamsha to me is like the petrol or gasoline in a car. Jyotish needs ayanamsha for 'moving' but it is not too hung up on the exact type of gasoline or its octane content etc. It is like Shaktiman truck that will run on petrol, diesel, kerosene and even ghee in a crunch!
Since I have found a good petrol pump that will not run out of fuel in future as far as I can see it, I do not spend time obsessively in trying to learn the ins and outs of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing of different fractionation products of black gold (as petroleum is called). In other words when it comes to ayanamsha, I am a consumer, a user and not a researcher or explorer.
I hope you understand why I sound so contented and relieved when I talk about ayanamsha ;-)
RR[/quote]
Daer Dada,
You not only have a wonderful knowledge of astrology, but have a superb command over expressions.
Your short reply answered too much; not only for me but for the other readers too.... if they are willing to understand.
Again Ayanamsa is neccessary not so much for the dasa and bhuthis but for checking out the charakarakas, specially atmakaraka.
The person who carried forward the research on Jaimini studies was Sanjay Rath and his Grandfather, I think.
He follows either Lahiri ayanamsa or something close to it. So the + or - from Chitrapaksha is important for my research.
Please help me.
RishiRahul[/quote]
i understand your position, Rishi. What I would suggest is that you locate some charts with the karakas close to the cusp by one ayanamsha and then critically examine the chart using the other ayanamsha. Write down your findings, dispassionately, without leaning towards or away from one or the other ayanamsha. After about 20 such charts, look over your findings rating each ayanamsha's performance for each of these charts. Pick the one that works best in your hands. It is not all that tedious and critical to do before you launch your research. If you just go by other people's recommended values, the doubt and uncertainty will remain in your mind and will simply cause anguish.
RR
Ayanamsha to me is like the petrol or gasoline in a car. Jyotish needs ayanamsha for 'moving' but it is not too hung up on the exact type of gasoline or its octane content etc. It is like Shaktiman truck that will run on petrol, diesel, kerosene and even ghee in a crunch!
Since I have found a good petrol pump that will not run out of fuel in future as far as I can see it, I do not spend time obsessively in trying to learn the ins and outs of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing of different fractionation products of black gold (as petroleum is called). In other words when it comes to ayanamsha, I am a consumer, a user and not a researcher or explorer.
I hope you understand why I sound so contented and relieved when I talk about ayanamsha ;-)
RR[/quote]
Daer Dada,
You not only have a wonderful knowledge of astrology, but have a superb command over expressions.
Your short reply answered too much; not only for me but for the other readers too.... if they are willing to understand.
Again Ayanamsa is neccessary not so much for the dasa and bhuthis but for checking out the charakarakas, specially atmakaraka.
The person who carried forward the research on Jaimini studies was Sanjay Rath and his Grandfather, I think.
He follows either Lahiri ayanamsa or something close to it. So the + or - from Chitrapaksha is important for my research.
Please help me.
RishiRahul[/quote]
i understand your position, Rishi. What I would suggest is that you locate some charts with the karakas close to the cusp by one ayanamsha and then critically examine the chart using the other ayanamsha. Write down your findings, dispassionately, without leaning towards or away from one or the other ayanamsha. After about 20 such charts, look over your findings rating each ayanamsha's performance for each of these charts. Pick the one that works best in your hands. It is not all that tedious and critical to do before you launch your research. If you just go by other people's recommended values, the doubt and uncertainty will remain in your mind and will simply cause anguish.
RR
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Rohiniranjan
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[quote="RishiRahul"][quote="Votive"]Rishiji,
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive[/quote]
Votive ji,
Thank you much for the prompt reply.
A clarification please. Since I do not understand too much about the astronomical parts which help to arrive at arrive at ayanamsas value, and as RohiniRanjanji states that I am a consumer, and need not know about the design, I absolutely agree and never found the need to understand such details.
Simply do tell me that from Raman ayanamsa, the change to Yukteshwar should be -4 or +4 minutes, like for changing to R.R. ji we minus 50 minutes from Raman.
Secondly tha suggested one should be +2 or - 2 from N.C. Lahiris.
Thirdly I would be gratefull if you dig out the papers please.
Fourthly,
Do you have an alter ego like Superman had?
Anticipatingly,
RisiRahul[/quote]
Firstly, Rishi, my comment upon being a consumer insofaras ayanamsha goes applied just to ME and was not a recommendation for you or anyone else to follow! :-)
To save Votive from looking it up, in Chapter XXXVI: Ayanamsha (pp 220-222) of the Jyotish Primer that I wrote and distributed in the past, the relevant portion is quoted here. Hopefully it would help readers a bit.
"A brief account of the Yukteshwar ayanamsha is provided here. In the year 1894, Swami Yukteshwar Giri (guru of Parmahansa Yogananda who authored the famous "Autobiography of a Yogi" and started the Self-Realization Fellowship in California) wrote a small book named "The Holy Science". It holds gems of much spiritual value, but it also has a very interesting and 'different' perspective on the 'Chaturyuga' cycles. In this very book, he also talks about how the Yugas are linked with the cycle of precession, the very slow wobble that results in the shifting of the cycle of seasons relative to the cycle of constellations or the visible zodiac. The jyotishis use the constellational zodiac or visible zodiac to demarcate the rashis or bhachakra. When a planet is seen in the constellational region of scorpio, up in the sky, the jyotishi considers the planet to be in scorpio. In contrast, the tropical zodiac used by western astrology is geared to the cycle of seasons and the first point of aries in this system is considered to be the moment of equinox or equal night and day in spring (in the northern hemisphere, or the autumn in southern hemisphere); this is based on the declinational (ayana) journey of the apparent sun (actually, the earth). The two zodiacs slide away from each other at the rate of about 1 degree in 72 years. This motion is called ayanamsha and there are many values recommended by different scholars for this 'correction' that is applied to tropical longitudes to derive sidereal values. Why is it necessary to work from the tropical longitudes? This is because, the moment of equinox is a definite epoch which is objectively and easily measurable; however, the first point of sidereal aries is not so easily discernible and hence there remains some room for variations of opinions. This is why we have a choice of so many popular ayanamshas: Lahiri, Fagan, Raman, Krishnamurthi, Devdutta and many more.
Swami Giri in his 1894 work referred to contemporary astronomical books (presumably ephemeris or panchangs without specifying which) gave the value of ayanamsha as 20 deg 54 min and 36 sec for the spring equinox of 1894 and identified AD 499 as the year of coincidence of the two zodiacs. He obviously used a value of 54 sec per year for the annual motion of ayanamsha precession. Modern scientific observation attributes a value of approximately 50.25 to 50.3 seconds for this quantity (the annual motion of precession of equinoxes is not a constant term and varies over time in a gradually cyclical manner). Now, if we divide 20d 54m 36s (=75276 sec; the value of ayanamsha for 1894) by 50.28, we get a value very close to the year 397 which is the year of coincidence recommended by Dr. B.V. Raman in late 1930s. In 1999, Raman's ayanamsha gives positions of planets that are about 6 minutes ahead of Yukteshwar's because of the 3-4 seconds annual differences in the values of annual motion adopted since 1894. This is a minor difference and the similarity in values for these two ayanamshas recommended by these two stalwarts separated by almost fifty to sixty years is simply remarkable. I am not aware of nor have I read anywhere if Prof. Raman's ayanamsha was inspired by the value given by Shri Yukteshwar Giri or if it was independently derived by the Late eminent Prof. Raman. [NOTE added to forum post: Prof. Raman's grandson, Sri Suprajaram who was a fellow member on some jyotish forum was asked by me and indicated that as far as he knew the Raman ayanamsha was used by Raman's grandfather too. He never got back to me with more details as promised. Perhaps he got too busy or forgot. It must be noted also that Yukteshwar never claimed to have calculated the ayanamsha attributed to him. He just mentions that it was from astronomical books (panchangs). Which panchaang he used is not known. One internet disciple of that muth/ashram claimed that he had found a suitcase full of papers on that and will bring those to my attention. Six years have passed, I am still waiting! So much for patience!!]
For those individuals who use the Yukteshwar ayanamsha option in their jyotish software, it would be advisable to check if the value of ayanamsha turns out to be 20d 54m 36s for vernal equinox of 1894 (March 21/22). Fine tuning of the software value, if permitted, to bring it to that quoted by Swami Giri would be helpful. Please note that a minor difference of a minute or less would not introduce a significant error, so there is absolutely no need to agonize over minor discrepancies. The inaccurate birth time in most cases would wipe out any super-precise corrections, anyway!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive[/quote]
Votive ji,
Thank you much for the prompt reply.
A clarification please. Since I do not understand too much about the astronomical parts which help to arrive at arrive at ayanamsas value, and as RohiniRanjanji states that I am a consumer, and need not know about the design, I absolutely agree and never found the need to understand such details.
Simply do tell me that from Raman ayanamsa, the change to Yukteshwar should be -4 or +4 minutes, like for changing to R.R. ji we minus 50 minutes from Raman.
Secondly tha suggested one should be +2 or - 2 from N.C. Lahiris.
Thirdly I would be gratefull if you dig out the papers please.
Fourthly,
Do you have an alter ego like Superman had?
Anticipatingly,
RisiRahul[/quote]
Firstly, Rishi, my comment upon being a consumer insofaras ayanamsha goes applied just to ME and was not a recommendation for you or anyone else to follow! :-)
To save Votive from looking it up, in Chapter XXXVI: Ayanamsha (pp 220-222) of the Jyotish Primer that I wrote and distributed in the past, the relevant portion is quoted here. Hopefully it would help readers a bit.
"A brief account of the Yukteshwar ayanamsha is provided here. In the year 1894, Swami Yukteshwar Giri (guru of Parmahansa Yogananda who authored the famous "Autobiography of a Yogi" and started the Self-Realization Fellowship in California) wrote a small book named "The Holy Science". It holds gems of much spiritual value, but it also has a very interesting and 'different' perspective on the 'Chaturyuga' cycles. In this very book, he also talks about how the Yugas are linked with the cycle of precession, the very slow wobble that results in the shifting of the cycle of seasons relative to the cycle of constellations or the visible zodiac. The jyotishis use the constellational zodiac or visible zodiac to demarcate the rashis or bhachakra. When a planet is seen in the constellational region of scorpio, up in the sky, the jyotishi considers the planet to be in scorpio. In contrast, the tropical zodiac used by western astrology is geared to the cycle of seasons and the first point of aries in this system is considered to be the moment of equinox or equal night and day in spring (in the northern hemisphere, or the autumn in southern hemisphere); this is based on the declinational (ayana) journey of the apparent sun (actually, the earth). The two zodiacs slide away from each other at the rate of about 1 degree in 72 years. This motion is called ayanamsha and there are many values recommended by different scholars for this 'correction' that is applied to tropical longitudes to derive sidereal values. Why is it necessary to work from the tropical longitudes? This is because, the moment of equinox is a definite epoch which is objectively and easily measurable; however, the first point of sidereal aries is not so easily discernible and hence there remains some room for variations of opinions. This is why we have a choice of so many popular ayanamshas: Lahiri, Fagan, Raman, Krishnamurthi, Devdutta and many more.
Swami Giri in his 1894 work referred to contemporary astronomical books (presumably ephemeris or panchangs without specifying which) gave the value of ayanamsha as 20 deg 54 min and 36 sec for the spring equinox of 1894 and identified AD 499 as the year of coincidence of the two zodiacs. He obviously used a value of 54 sec per year for the annual motion of ayanamsha precession. Modern scientific observation attributes a value of approximately 50.25 to 50.3 seconds for this quantity (the annual motion of precession of equinoxes is not a constant term and varies over time in a gradually cyclical manner). Now, if we divide 20d 54m 36s (=75276 sec; the value of ayanamsha for 1894) by 50.28, we get a value very close to the year 397 which is the year of coincidence recommended by Dr. B.V. Raman in late 1930s. In 1999, Raman's ayanamsha gives positions of planets that are about 6 minutes ahead of Yukteshwar's because of the 3-4 seconds annual differences in the values of annual motion adopted since 1894. This is a minor difference and the similarity in values for these two ayanamshas recommended by these two stalwarts separated by almost fifty to sixty years is simply remarkable. I am not aware of nor have I read anywhere if Prof. Raman's ayanamsha was inspired by the value given by Shri Yukteshwar Giri or if it was independently derived by the Late eminent Prof. Raman. [NOTE added to forum post: Prof. Raman's grandson, Sri Suprajaram who was a fellow member on some jyotish forum was asked by me and indicated that as far as he knew the Raman ayanamsha was used by Raman's grandfather too. He never got back to me with more details as promised. Perhaps he got too busy or forgot. It must be noted also that Yukteshwar never claimed to have calculated the ayanamsha attributed to him. He just mentions that it was from astronomical books (panchangs). Which panchaang he used is not known. One internet disciple of that muth/ashram claimed that he had found a suitcase full of papers on that and will bring those to my attention. Six years have passed, I am still waiting! So much for patience!!]
For those individuals who use the Yukteshwar ayanamsha option in their jyotish software, it would be advisable to check if the value of ayanamsha turns out to be 20d 54m 36s for vernal equinox of 1894 (March 21/22). Fine tuning of the software value, if permitted, to bring it to that quoted by Swami Giri would be helpful. Please note that a minor difference of a minute or less would not introduce a significant error, so there is absolutely no need to agonize over minor discrepancies. The inaccurate birth time in most cases would wipe out any super-precise corrections, anyway!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR
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RishiRahul
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i understand your position, Rishi. What I would suggest is that you locate some charts with the karakas close to the cusp by one ayanamsha and then critically examine the chart using the other ayanamsha. Write down your findings, dispassionately, without leaning towards or away from one or the other ayanamsha. After about 20 such charts, look over your findings rating each ayanamsha's performance for each of these charts. Pick the one that works best in your hands. It is not all that tedious and critical to do before you launch your research. If you just go by other people's recommended values, the doubt and uncertainty will remain in your mind and will simply cause anguish.
RR..... quote.
Dear Dada,
Wish I had met you 20 years earlier.... or even 7 year earlier.
You are master/teacher who never spoon feeds. Saturns lessons are never forgotten, as he never spoon feeds.
I met you during Saturn Dasa and Venus antar. So I suppose You have certainly a very strong Venus which stands out.
I feel that, my age being 49 already, having much life pressures of various kinds telling one about would leave a Hindi film being written all over. I bring out time for free + paid consultations over and above the Hindi movie bit.
RishiRahul
RR..... quote.
Dear Dada,
Wish I had met you 20 years earlier.... or even 7 year earlier.
You are master/teacher who never spoon feeds. Saturns lessons are never forgotten, as he never spoon feeds.
I met you during Saturn Dasa and Venus antar. So I suppose You have certainly a very strong Venus which stands out.
I feel that, my age being 49 already, having much life pressures of various kinds telling one about would leave a Hindi film being written all over. I bring out time for free + paid consultations over and above the Hindi movie bit.
RishiRahul
-
RishiRahul
- Astrology Reader
- Posts: 7193
- Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:47 am
- Location: Kolkata, New York, Toronto
- Contact:
rohiniranjan wrote:RishiRahul wrote:Votive wrote:Rishiji,
Sri Yukteswar wrote a book called "The Holy Sciences" in 1894. RRji , knows allll about it!
The ayanamsha suggested had, in 1900, it had a value of 21 degree 4 minutes almost very close to the Raman Value of 21 degrees but the suggestion was that the ayanamsha would change by 54 minutes every year.
I had done a collection of material for understanding Ayanamasha about a couple of years back, right now I do not have access to it, if you would still be interested a couple of weeks later maybe I will dig it out.
Votive
Votive ji,
Thank you much for the prompt reply.
A clarification please. Since I do not understand too much about the astronomical parts which help to arrive at arrive at ayanamsas value, and as RohiniRanjanji states that I am a consumer, and need not know about the design, I absolutely agree and never found the need to understand such details.
Simply do tell me that from Raman ayanamsa, the change to Yukteshwar should be -4 or +4 minutes, like for changing to R.R. ji we minus 50 minutes from Raman.
Secondly tha suggested one should be +2 or - 2 from N.C. Lahiris.
Thirdly I would be gratefull if you dig out the papers please.
Fourthly,
Do you have an alter ego like Superman had?
Anticipatingly,
RisiRahul
Firstly, Rishi, my comment upon being a consumer insofaras ayanamsha goes applied just to ME and was not a recommendation for you or anyone else to follow!
To save Votive from looking it up, in Chapter XXXVI: Ayanamsha (pp 220-222) of the Jyotish Primer that I wrote and distributed in the past, the relevant portion is quoted here. Hopefully it would help readers a bit.
"A brief account of the Yukteshwar ayanamsha is provided here. In the year 1894, Swami Yukteshwar Giri (guru of Parmahansa Yogananda who authored the famous "Autobiography of a Yogi" and started the Self-Realization Fellowship in California) wrote a small book named "The Holy Science". It holds gems of much spiritual value, but it also has a very interesting and 'different' perspective on the 'Chaturyuga' cycles. In this very book, he also talks about how the Yugas are linked with the cycle of precession, the very slow wobble that results in the shifting of the cycle of seasons relative to the cycle of constellations or the visible zodiac. The jyotishis use the constellational zodiac or visible zodiac to demarcate the rashis or bhachakra. When a planet is seen in the constellational region of scorpio, up in the sky, the jyotishi considers the planet to be in scorpio. In contrast, the tropical zodiac used by western astrology is geared to the cycle of seasons and the first point of aries in this system is considered to be the moment of equinox or equal night and day in spring (in the northern hemisphere, or the autumn in southern hemisphere); this is based on the declinational (ayana) journey of the apparent sun (actually, the earth). The two zodiacs slide away from each other at the rate of about 1 degree in 72 years. This motion is called ayanamsha and there are many values recommended by different scholars for this 'correction' that is applied to tropical longitudes to derive sidereal values. Why is it necessary to work from the tropical longitudes? This is because, the moment of equinox is a definite epoch which is objectively and easily measurable; however, the first point of sidereal aries is not so easily discernible and hence there remains some room for variations of opinions. This is why we have a choice of so many popular ayanamshas: Lahiri, Fagan, Raman, Krishnamurthi, Devdutta and many more.
Swami Giri in his 1894 work referred to contemporary astronomical books (presumably ephemeris or panchangs without specifying which) gave the value of ayanamsha as 20 deg 54 min and 36 sec for the spring equinox of 1894 and identified AD 499 as the year of coincidence of the two zodiacs. He obviously used a value of 54 sec per year for the annual motion of ayanamsha precession. Modern scientific observation attributes a value of approximately 50.25 to 50.3 seconds for this quantity (the annual motion of precession of equinoxes is not a constant term and varies over time in a gradually cyclical manner). Now, if we divide 20d 54m 36s (=75276 sec; the value of ayanamsha for 1894) by 50.28, we get a value very close to the year 397 which is the year of coincidence recommended by Dr. B.V. Raman in late 1930s. In 1999, Raman's ayanamsha gives positions of planets that are about 6 minutes ahead of Yukteshwar's because of the 3-4 seconds annual differences in the values of annual motion adopted since 1894. This is a minor difference and the similarity in values for these two ayanamshas recommended by these two stalwarts separated by almost fifty to sixty years is simply remarkable. I am not aware of nor have I read anywhere if Prof. Raman's ayanamsha was inspired by the value given by Shri Yukteshwar Giri or if it was independently derived by the Late eminent Prof. Raman. [NOTE added to forum post: Prof. Raman's grandson, Sri Suprajaram who was a fellow member on some jyotish forum was asked by me and indicated that as far as he knew the Raman ayanamsha was used by Raman's grandfather too. He never got back to me with more details as promised. Perhaps he got too busy or forgot. It must be noted also that Yukteshwar never claimed to have calculated the ayanamsha attributed to him. He just mentions that it was from astronomical books (panchangs). Which panchaang he used is not known. One internet disciple of that muth/ashram claimed that he had found a suitcase full of papers on that and will bring those to my attention. Six years have passed, I am still waiting! So much for patience!!]
For those individuals who use the Yukteshwar ayanamsha option in their jyotish software, it would be advisable to check if the value of ayanamsha turns out to be 20d 54m 36s for vernal equinox of 1894 (March 21/22). Fine tuning of the software value, if permitted, to bring it to that quoted by Swami Giri would be helpful. Please note that a minor difference of a minute or less would not introduce a significant error, so there is absolutely no need to agonize over minor discrepancies. The inaccurate birth time in most cases would wipe out any super-precise corrections, anyway!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR
Thank you Dada,
I am saving this thread for later on. I did read it, but need more maturity to understand/assimilate the concept entirely.
Most Respecfully,
RishiRahul
-
Rohiniranjan
- Posts: 7470
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:11 pm
- Location: N.A.
[quote="RishiRahul"]Thank you Dada,
I am saving this thread for later on. I did read it, but need more maturity to understand/assimilate the concept entirely.
Most Respecfully,
RishiRahul[/quote]
It is very straightforward, bhai. At least the math part. The 'human'/polity part is not important and just a side-bar!
Stay with the math! That is what matters in the long run when coming to terms with this ayanamsha beast which is really a mouse as western tropical astrologers have demonstrated to the world! Astrology can function without ayanamsha! Vive l'espirit humaine!
RR
I am saving this thread for later on. I did read it, but need more maturity to understand/assimilate the concept entirely.
Most Respecfully,
RishiRahul[/quote]
It is very straightforward, bhai. At least the math part. The 'human'/polity part is not important and just a side-bar!
Stay with the math! That is what matters in the long run when coming to terms with this ayanamsha beast which is really a mouse as western tropical astrologers have demonstrated to the world! Astrology can function without ayanamsha! Vive l'espirit humaine!
RR
-
Rohiniranjan
- Posts: 7470
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:11 pm
- Location: N.A.
[quote="RishiRahul"]Dear Dada,
Wish I had met you 20 years earlier.... or even 7 year earlier.
You are master/teacher who never spoon feeds. Saturns lessons are never forgotten, as he never spoon feeds.
I met you during Saturn Dasa and Venus antar. So I suppose You have certainly a very strong Venus which stands out.
I feel that, my age being 49 already, having much life pressures of various kinds telling one about would leave a Hindi film being written all over. I bring out time for free + paid consultations over and above the Hindi movie bit.
RishiRahul[/quote]
Dear Rishi,
Why this gloomy tone? I am grateful to Chronos that we met just when we met! You should read James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy, if you have not already! All astrologers and spiritualists should!
The pressures of life, which all of us experience, are simply there for us to realize what our true priorities should be, now and in future. Astrology is a saadhana that really comes to bloom after retirement, provided we prepare for it ahead of time! Read KN Rao's life story through his writings if you want to know what I mean!
Sometimes we have to make the decision to create room for what we love, feel dedicated to and what seems worthwhile to our soul. If that need is not there or not felt strongly, but just the light desire (dushtu khidey, as it is called in Bangla; peckishness and not true hunger!) alone is there, we must just make sure that we wait for dinner time patiently and avoid all junk food that will destroy our appetite before Ma is ready to serve HER delicious gifts from the Cosmic Kitchen!!
mmmmm........
Rohiniranjan
Wish I had met you 20 years earlier.... or even 7 year earlier.
You are master/teacher who never spoon feeds. Saturns lessons are never forgotten, as he never spoon feeds.
I met you during Saturn Dasa and Venus antar. So I suppose You have certainly a very strong Venus which stands out.
I feel that, my age being 49 already, having much life pressures of various kinds telling one about would leave a Hindi film being written all over. I bring out time for free + paid consultations over and above the Hindi movie bit.
RishiRahul[/quote]
Dear Rishi,
Why this gloomy tone? I am grateful to Chronos that we met just when we met! You should read James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy, if you have not already! All astrologers and spiritualists should!
The pressures of life, which all of us experience, are simply there for us to realize what our true priorities should be, now and in future. Astrology is a saadhana that really comes to bloom after retirement, provided we prepare for it ahead of time! Read KN Rao's life story through his writings if you want to know what I mean!
Sometimes we have to make the decision to create room for what we love, feel dedicated to and what seems worthwhile to our soul. If that need is not there or not felt strongly, but just the light desire (dushtu khidey, as it is called in Bangla; peckishness and not true hunger!) alone is there, we must just make sure that we wait for dinner time patiently and avoid all junk food that will destroy our appetite before Ma is ready to serve HER delicious gifts from the Cosmic Kitchen!!
mmmmm........
Rohiniranjan
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