Ayanamsa

[Brahma Mihira]

Hi

Sometime "(-)0/33/8.8" is good in JHora, However where is the city and country you research in following table?

1976 - 22-58-31
1977 - 22-59-17
1978 - 23-00-02
1979 - 23-00-46
1980 - 23/01/31
1981 - 23/02/17
1982 - 04/03/23
1983 - 03/23/53
1984 - 04/23/43
1985 - 05/23/36
1986 - 31/06/23
1987 - 07/23/26
.........................

Thanks.

[Rohiniranjan]

Hi Acubens,

For what it is worth, I too have been finding good results in that zone of ayanamsha. Within a few minutes of 32.

Love, Lux, Learning,

Rohiniranjan

No.
Periods of Ramana did not converge, but the difference in my day to day converge.

True Ayanamsha - somewhere between Lahiri and Raman.
And between them - between Krishnamurti and Yukteswar.

Please forgive me for the courage and self-confidence, maybe someone
also see the truth is that proposed Ayanamshi.
It is approximately 0 ° 33 'less Lahiri and 0 ° 54' is greater than the Raman.
The difference between Ayanamshey Lahiri and Raman composes an average of 1 ° 27 '.

To make your card on the proposed Ayanamshe,
You need to add a 0 ° 33 'to Ayanamshe Lahiri,
that is, what would Lagna and Graha occupied position to 0 ° 33 'more than Ayanamshe Lahiri.
(That is, if the Lagna Ayanamshe Lahiri for example is 00 ° 00'00 "Dhana (Sagittarius)
when Ayanamshe Acubensa Lagna is 00 ° 33'00 "Dhana (Sagittarius).
Can some error in seconds, as yet Ayanamsha not constant. .)

Using the proposed test for Ayanamshu, I was convinced of its accuracy.
The following data is as of January 1 of each year, 00:00.
I hope for your patience.


Lahiri_________Krishnamurti_________Acubens_________Yukteshvar________Raman

Ayanamsha Acubensa:

1950 - 22-36-27
1951 - 22-37-23
1952 - 22-38-19
1953 - 22-39-14
1954 - 22-40-08
1955 - 22-40-59
1956 - 22-41-49
1957 - 22-42-37
1958 - 22-43-23
1959 - 22-44-09
1960 - 22-44-53
1961 - 22-45-38
1962 - 22-46-23
1963 - 22-47-09
1964 - 22-47-58
1965 - 22-48-48
1966 - 22-49-40
1967 - 22-50-34
1968 - 22-51-29
1969 - 22-52-25
1970 - 22-53-21
1971 - 22-54-16
1972 - 22-55-10
1973 - 22-56-04
1974 - 22-56-55
1975 - 22-57-44
1976 - 22-58-31
1977 - 22-59-17
1978 - 23-00-02
1979 - 23-00-46
1980 - 23/01/31
1981 - 23/02/17
1982 - 04/03/23
1983 - 03/23/53
1984 - 04/23/43
1985 - 05/23/36
1986 - 31/06/23
1987 - 07/23/26
1988 - 22/08/23
1989 - 23/09/18
1990 - 10/13/23
1991 - 07/11/23
1992 - 23/12/00
1993 - 12/23/50
1994 - 23-13-38
1995 - 23-14-25
1996 - 23-15-10
1997 - 23-15-55
1998 - 23-16-39
1999 - 23-17-24
2000 - 23-18-10
2001 - 23-18-58
2002 - 23-19-48
2003 - 23-20-39
2004 - 23-21-33
2005 - 23-22-28
2006 - 23-23-23
2007 - 23-24-19
2008 - 23-25-15
2009 - 23-26-10
2010 - 23-27-03
2011 - 23-27-55
2012 - 23-28-44
2013 - 23-29-32
2014 - 23-30-18
2015 - 23-31-03
2016 - 23-31-48
2017 - 23-32-32
2018 - 23-33-18
2019 - 23-34-05
2020 - 23-34-53
2021 - 23-35-43
2022 - 23-36-36
2023 - 23-37-30
2024 - 23-38-25
2025 - 23-39-21
2026 - 23-40-17
2027 - 23-41-12
2028 - 23-42-07
2029 - 23-42-59
2030 - 23-43-50
2031 - 23-44-39
2032 - 23-45-26
2033 - 23-45-26
2034 - 23-46-56
2035 - 23-47-41
2036 - 23-48-26
2037 - 23-49-12
2038 - 23-49-59
2039 - 23-50-48
2040 - 23-51-39
2041 - 23-52-33
2042 - 23-53-27
2043 - 23-54-23
2044 - 23-55-19
2045 - 23-56-15
2046 - 23-57-10
2047 - 23-58-03
2048 - 23-58-55
2049 - 23-59-45
2050 - 24-00-33

Please send your huge observation and feedback - Acubens@mail.ru

[RishiRahul]

Hi Dada,

Welcome back! And now I am really jealous with an ayanamsa named Acubens!

Acubens did create an ayanamsa........ no rishirahul ayanamsa



Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="RishiRahul"]Hi Dada,

Welcome back! And now I am really jealous with an ayanamsa named Acubens!

Acubens did create an ayanamsa........ no rishirahul ayanamsa



Rishi[/quote]

Haha!

Dheeraj rakho bhai saheb! Aur karm kiyay jaao...! Creation is in the hand of The CREATOR! Let us leave that to MA

Love and Lux,

[RishiRahul]

Hi Dada,

Welcome back! And now I am really jealous with an ayanamsa named Acubens!

Acubens did create an ayanamsa........ no rishirahul ayanamsa



Rishi

Haha!

Dheeraj rakho bhai saheb! Aur karm kiyay jaao...! Creation is in the hand of The CREATOR! Let us leave that to MA




Love and Lux,

Acubens, If you remember, is a vary old entrant here....generally in research mode I think..... Or must be a very busy person!!?

I wonder which definition of year in dasa is used by hum/her!



RishiRahul

[mysbcrs]

While trying out various ayanamshas (leaving out SSS), one thing that I found tough to handle is the connection between birth time, ayanamsha and length of the year. For placing an event you could technically change any one of the three and reach the same point (to large extent in good many charts at the least ).

Coupled with the fact there are differences of opinion on what constitutes the exact time of birth (head appearing first in outside world, first breathing, first time touching the ground....), the entire matter is very confusing. . In other words, what can be achieved by someone by changing the ayanamsha, I can possibly do by changing birth time.

Given this I am curious to find out whether there are any accepted norms in using ayanamsha and definitin of year as a combo? For e.g, Lahiri to be used only with 360 tithi year etc.

CRS

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="mysbcrs"]While trying out various ayanamshas (leaving out SSS), one thing that I found tough to handle is the connection between birth time, ayanamsha and length of the year. For placing an event you could technically change any one of the three and reach the same point (to large extent in good many charts at the least ).


Hmmm...

Why leave out 'SSS', as you seemed to...?

Is that based on actual experimentations?

Vinay_ji had been spending a lot of his valuable time in trying to share his personal experiences for several months if not years in recommending that! On this forum and elsewhere! He is a very nice person, by the way!

PVR Narasimha Rao at the behest of his Guru and in collaboration with Jha_ji has even taken the time and spent energy in incorporating SSS routines/option in his JHora software!

Why be so dismissive about it (SSS)? Particularly since you have not found the ayanamsha that will work in your hands? Assuming that to be the case or why would you post this question on this forum (and perhaps other fora as well?)

TRY them ALL, and if you are sincere -- you will find what you are looking for!

But, if the 'question' arises once in a while and you are motivated to post a query (Which ayanamsha and what year duration, etc), then surely it is not important for you and just an idle curiosity...! Right?

You are looking for the HOLY GRAIL that does not exist! Or else someone would have found (or rediscovered?) it by now and we might have moved to more important things...!

Please do not get offended and read what I posted, again, after a few hours, if upon first reading, I sound offensive...!

Love, Lux, Learning
Coupled with the fact there are differences of opinion on what constitutes the exact time of birth (head appearing first in outside world, first breathing, first time touching the ground....), the entire matter is very confusing. . In other words, what can be achieved by someone by changing the ayanamsha, I can possibly do by changing birth time.

Given this I am curious to find out whether there are any accepted norms in using ayanamsha and definitin of year as a combo? For e.g, Lahiri to be used only with 360 tithi year etc.

CRS[/quote]

[mysbcrs]

Dear RR ji,

Thanks and I dont see any offense in your post. At least I am not mean minded enough to take offense at your persuasion to make me think

I have tried SSS too. The reason why I left out SSS was because it is unrelated to current day's ephemeris. It is a "package of rules" and taking out ayanamsha from it separately will probably not lead us to any logical conclusions. The other ayanamshas, on the other hand, work "linearly" (pardon me as I am unable to come with any better word!). i.e, longitude as per ephemeris (of all grahas and lagna) +/- ayanamsha gives you the corrected one. Change in birth time has almost the same effect. Changing the definition of year length also has a similar effect.

My post was to elicit any "accepted" norms on for e.g,,

"Ayanamsha ABC works well when you use year = 360 deg solar year and birth time is recorded when the baby takes it first breath'

This will help me limit myself to tried and tested combos instead of trying out all permutations. Lazy me

CRS

[Rohiniranjan]

With no disrespect intended, SSS calculations must not be lumped with other ayanamshas, as an Ayanamsha! With no disrespect intended towards Vinay_ji and Narasimha_ji (and any others involved), SSS calculations are a different form of calculating the zodiac! It is a DIFFERENT ZODIAC and not just an offset that ayanamsha is...!

Ironically, Sayana zodiac used by western astrologers can be taken as an ayanamsha-offset! It is ZERO ayanamsha and whether you use Lahiri, Raman, Fagan, or many other 'offsets' the difference between Sayana values and other values used by other ayanamsha followers would be a constant! If the difference is 22 degrees, it would be the same for moon, sun, saturn etc!

When using SSS calculations, the 'offset' would vary for say, moon or saturn or rahu! (even if true rahu is used by both calculators!)


SSS is a different zodiac entirely!

LOve and LUX

[Rohiniranjan]

Dear friend,

I am relieved to hear that! Unfortunately, and as often gets portrayed, perhaps there is no IDEAL ayanamsha! I have seen individuals use different ayanamshas and dasa years and manage to serve good readings which are accurate!

So, please do not agonize too much and just 'begin at the beginning and accept any changes that you feel are necessary!', rather than worrying about what the current accepted NORM is, as if there is ONE that exists! It does not!

While a certain body of astrologers are out there to claim that Astrology is a SCIENCE and hence must have strict NORMS, even SCIENCE itself is not that RIGID! It has changed and learned from its mistakes and mistaken suppositions! Over the decades!

Why should astrology be any different? To the honest explorer, it should not take much time to realize that many of these ancient scriptural texts are not all infalliable.

Please use common sense and accept or discard as you go along in your pah of learning...!

Love and Lux


[quote="mysbcrs"]Dear RR ji,

Thanks and I dont see any offense in your post. At least I am not mean minded enough to take offense at your persuasion to make me think

I have tried SSS too. The reason why I left out SSS was because it is unrelated to current day's ephemeris. It is a "package of rules" and taking out ayanamsha from it separately will probably not lead us to any logical conclusions. The other ayanamshas, on the other hand, work "linearly" (pardon me as I am unable to come with any better word!). i.e, longitude as per ephemeris (of all grahas and lagna) +/- ayanamsha gives you the corrected one. Change in birth time has almost the same effect. Changing the definition of year length also has a similar effect.

My post was to elicit any "accepted" norms on for e.g,,

"Ayanamsha ABC works well when you use year = 360 deg solar year and birth time is recorded when the baby takes it first breath'

This will help me limit myself to tried and tested combos instead of trying out all permutations. Lazy me

CRS[/quote]

[nadathur.astro]

When we were taught astrology, it was always with respect to astronomy and mathematics.

Ayanamsa was always taught to us as correction required for  

1.Slowing down of the earth's revolution (like a plaything top. when a top slows down the axis goes on changing)
2. Slowing down of the earth's movement around the sun.
3. The gravitiy pull of sun decreases as earth goes away from sun and hence the constellation angle changes

It also had to do with assumption that earth was center of planetary system

well I may be wrong

[Rohiniranjan]

Interestingly enough, if there were no moon, there would not be ayanamsha. But without moon, there would not be different seasons on earth, no astrology and perhaps no human beings on this planet

Love and Lux,

Rohiniranjan

[b]Elaboration [/b]added, just in case the original sharing and response may have sounded too cryptic <LOL>

It is moon (astronomical pinda!) that is large enough to exert a pull on our planet and that to a large extent tilts earth's axis.

This causes the earth to wobble like a top (lattu) as it circles around the SUN.

The tilt leads to the hemispheres to get closer to Sun or farther away depending on its position. So during winter, the northern hemisphere is tilted away from the sun and colder while Australians enjoy summer at the same time. During the northern summer, the opposite is the case. Nothing supernatural or magical about that!

As the axis of earth wobbles, the north axis points at different stars. It should not surprise you, hopefully, that in a few thousand years, the current Pole star will not remain the pole-star! The slow wobble takes some 25000 years or so to complete one turn (wobble).

This slow'precession' creates a shift in the equinoctial point as experienced on the earth. Hence the term 'precession of equinoxes'. If one masters the impossible feat of living for thousands of years, they will notice that the vernal equinox moves to a different date in the gregorian calendar (or any calendar if we hold same as reference for all those thousands of years -- an even more impossibly difficult task!

With these subtle shifts of precession, by no means a constant quantity (but varies over time -- long chunks of TIME), the seasonal zodiac (western, tropical, zodiac which uses the vernal equinox to represent the beginning of their zodiac) moves out of phase with the starry zodiac of our constellations. Stars too move gradually, astronomers tell us, and so perhaps in millions of years the 12 signs might change too -- but for practical purposes we can ignore that!

Ayanamsha is essentially this difference between the constellational zodiac (Nirayana) and tropical zodiac (Sayana).

Slowing down of earth's velocity is definitely based on the gravitational pull on it from the mighty Sun but that is a cyclic event which happens annually! It is because earth does not go around the sun in a perfect circle but the path, like that of all planets around sun is elliptical.

The 'earth at the center of the universe' which astrology uses, has bothered me too because this is astronomically not true and there is the colourful matter about church against science which Europe had witnessed hundreds of years ago when the prevalent church-view was challenged by scientists-astronomers.

However, astrology is not astronomy, nor religion! Although it uses both disciplines to do what it does!

Astrology is an experiential construct. Perhaps empirically (observation-based) created and while some try to fit it into the box known as science while others try to squeeze it into the exclusive box known as religion (and esoteric mysticism), I feel that it is a hybrid and effectively uses a bit of both!

Evolution is wonderful, is it not? It uses the best of what works and discards the vestigial elements that do not work. KIND of like what Mother Nature does or DID! Of course some mad dictators are trying to undo Mother Nature's long drawn out experiment in a nuclear jiffy. And they could do so in a mad moment as we shudder to think.

May COOLER heads prevail...!

Love and Light and Reality,

Rohiniranjan

[quote="nadathur.astro"]When we were taught astrology, it was always with respect to astronomy and mathematics.

Ayanamsa was always taught to us as correction required for  

1.Slowing down of the earth's revolution (like a plaything top. when a top slows down the axis goes on changing)
2. Slowing down of the earth's movement around the sun.
3. The gravitiy pull of sun decreases as earth goes away from sun and hence the constellation angle changes

It also had to do with assumption that earth was center of planetary system

well I may be wrong[/quote]

[Vinay Jha]

Ayanamsha is not a term of physical astronomy, it is a term used ONLY by sidereal astrologers following Vedic-Puranic tradition, although some others have also started using this concept, eg, the followers of Fagan. The original definition of Ayanamsha is "the degrees (=amsha) &nbsp;of Motion (=ayana) of pendulum-like trepidation / libration of the circle of asterisms (Nakshatra-circle)", going upto a maximum extent of 27 degrees on either side. This original SIDDHANTIC definition has no connection with the precession of equinoxes, which was rightly called "sampaat or meeting point of equitorial and ecliptic planes" &nbsp;in ancient Indian literature. From Theon of Alexandria to astrologers / astronomers of Baghdad to Europe until the time of Copernicus used this trepidating concept of ayanamsha, although the magnitude was not the same as of Indian siddhantas. Hipparchus had introduced the concept of precession of equinoxes according to data presented by Ptolemy, but this concept was accepted by astronomers only after Renaissance, and precession of equinoxes was eqiuated with ancient concept of Ayanamsha &nbsp;by officials of East India Company in 19th century who had no faith in Astrology and regarded traditional concept of Ayanamsha as a false superstition. It is utterly unscientific to renounce ancient astrological concepts as "unscientific" without testing and introduce new concepts in a discipline denounced completely by modern scientists. &nbsp;Ayanamsha has nothing to do with modern science, it is a concept of ancient Vedic Astrology and it is wrong to say that this ancient concept does not exist &nbsp;: it is still practised by a vast majority of traditional astrologers of India who are absent on internet.

-VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="Vinay Jha"]Ayanamsha is not a term of physical astronomy, it is a term used ONLY by sidereal astrologers following Vedic-Puranic tradition, although some others have also started using this concept, eg, the followers of Fagan. The original definition of Ayanamsha is "the degrees (=amsha)  of Motion (=ayana) of pendulum-like trepidation / libration of the circle of asterisms (Nakshatra-circle)", going upto a maximum extent of 27 degrees on either side. This original SIDDHANTIC definition has no connection with the precession of equinoxes, which was rightly called "sampaat or meeting point of equitorial and ecliptic planes"  in ancient Indian literature. From Theon of Alexandria to astrologers / astronomers of Baghdad to Europe until the time of Copernicus used this trepidating concept of ayanamsha, although the magnitude was not the same as of Indian siddhantas. Hipparchus had introduced the concept of precession of equinoxes according to data presented by Ptolemy, but this concept was accepted by astronomers only after Renaissance, and precession of equinoxes was eqiuated with ancient concept of Ayanamsha  by officials of East India Company in 19th century who had no faith in Astrology and regarded traditional concept of Ayanamsha as a false superstition. It is utterly unscientific to renounce ancient astrological concepts as "unscientific" without testing and introduce new concepts in a discipline denounced completely by modern scientists.  Ayanamsha has nothing to do with modern science, it is a concept of ancient Vedic Astrology and it is wrong to say that this ancient concept does not exist  : it is still practised by a vast majority of traditional astrologers of India who are absent on internet.

-VJ[/quote]

Dear Vinay_bhai,

You are right! Ayanamsha is not a part of physical astronomy, but it is a part of 'perceptual' astronomy (from a geo-centric perspective). Jyotish is based on such 'perceptual astronomy'. In fact terms such as retrogression and combustion also belongs to this perceptual astronomy (heavens as viewed from earth).

Growing up I had also heard from knowledgeable individuals that even the visible (perceptual) astronomy is not perfect, because Jyotish-planets are subtle bodies, which some call Devas.

Precession of equinoxes (used by software and calculations based on similar premises) has been quite useful for millions of jyotishis [and nativities that they helped!] and still in wide-spread use. In a practical sense! Perhaps a more refined way exists and we all await such to be revealed, when the time for such is ripe and right! I have noticed Usha (Dawn) but I await the moment of sunrise! I do not control Sun, but have quite a bit of patience, arrogant or egoistical as it may sound to some...

Though ma used to utilize 'tej-paata', in my childhood, while currently available Bay-leaves are the pragmatic reality, I am able to adapt and wait and not getting too hung up on avoiding Ma's kitchen and recipes altoghether, for want of one ingredient, critical as it may be in bring out the original flavour of the recipe!

In all fairness, that is what western astrology has done, in my ant's view, bhai! Using a zodiac that is way more different, they relied heavily on the relative distances (aspects) and mid-points (Ebertin) which perhaps not perfect or comprehensive to some, do away or diminish the 'ayanamsha influence'. Adaptation at work, again, just as it has been in Ma's Natural World!

I will not belabour the oft-repeated point and perspective, even if it may seem wrong to a few, or many even...

Love, Light, Reality,