House Divisions in Vedic & Astrology Classics

[RishiRahul]

Narasimha ji did not go as far to the sub sub concept, though.

Rishi

Maybe Narasimha does not believe in Later Day Saints and Sages  :smt003

Krishnamurthy stopped at the Sub (=bhukti level!) for some reason, perhaps he was aware of 'inaccurate birthtimes' and did not believe in 'doctoring' those indiscriminately, as seems to have become the modern pursuit...!

Dada,

Krishnamurthy did not stop at the sub level of nakshatras, but went to further divisions.

While using Vimshottari dasa went even to pratyantar dasas.

I think he even used horary (his style) to rectify times.

Rishi

[RishiRahul]

There you go again, Vinay ji!
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji??


Love and Light and Reality!

Your statements about modern views about cusp, either yours or or tropicalists, is perfect. So, why discuss Ptolemy, whom you have not read directly (no insult intended, because you are not interested in historical research, while I am)? Let us not discuss things not common to us. Neither Ptolemy is common to us, nor Kundalee. There is nothing bad in this position. OK, dada??

Please remember that my references to Kundalee will not be for you.

-VJ

You must learn to distinguish between comments and discussion! For you everything is a fight, a confrontation

I do not have any such pent up frustration or anger...!

Dear Vinay ji and Dada,

(1) KrishnaMurthy called bhava madhya as bhava arambha.

When he checked the constellation in house cusps, it was in the.... mentioned just above (1).

The weather in getting a bit 'Steamy', wouldn't it be great time for coffee
.
Sanjay ji just predicted in some website that the Global recession is coming to an end this May??!!?


Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

There you go again, Vinay ji!
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji??


Love and Light and Reality!

Your statements about modern views about cusp, either yours or or tropicalists, is perfect. So, why discuss Ptolemy, whom you have not read directly (no insult intended, because you are not interested in historical research, while I am)? Let us not discuss things not common to us. Neither Ptolemy is common to us, nor Kundalee. There is nothing bad in this position. OK, dada??

Please remember that my references to Kundalee will not be for you.

-VJ

You must learn to distinguish between comments and discussion! For you everything is a fight, a confrontation

I do not have any such pent up frustration or anger...!

Dear Vinay ji and Dada,

(1) KrishnaMurthy called bhava madhya as bhava arambha.

When he checked the constellation in house cusps, it was in the.... mentioned just above (1).

The weather in getting a bit 'Steamy', wouldn't it be great time for coffee
.
Sanjay ji just predicted in some website that the Global recession is coming to an end this May??!!?


Rishi

Dear Brother,

KP uses Placidian House system which is tropical and hence probably uses cusp as the beginning of house. The KP system is a hybrid system in my view. It borrows the vimshottari dasa and nakshatra and uses the Sub divisions by 'converting or transforming' the dasha bhukti periods into arc longitudes and thus derives Subs. Other later day KP followers went ahead to antar and finer to derive the finer sub-subs and sub-sub-subs etc. Other than those basic considerations and the use of sidereal zodiac and few fleeting references to jyotish combinations, KP has nothing to do with Jyotish. The System's approach, I think, is closer to Jyotish, than KP.

Now, this is not to imply that Jyotish is superior or inferior to KP and vice versa, but just pointing out that they are different functionally! Like two cousins perhaps or half-brothers?

I neither provide heat, nor water, let alone steam, Rishi and I am definitely not here on a coffee break! However, I do whistle while I work because I love jyotish so much! Always have and I doubt that is going to change in the rest of my days.

As you know, some more fundamentalistic jyotish groups (too intensely narrow-focused) and their representatives have not realized that Jyotish is the key that must explain entire life and spectrum of Human Experiences. Hence, anything that is part of Human Experience and Life is also part of Jyotish! So any discussion about human beings, from Anatomy to Zoology and with Sociology and psychology in there too, to me, represents candidates that are included in the FRAMEWORK of Jyotish and that includes LANGUAGE too, of course!

That simple and to me obvious perspective of mine seems to bother and overwhelm some of the folks who look at jyotish too narrowly.

I see human beings as explorers and those trying to find a way in this dark road of Uncertainty that life is for most! Now if you were on such a quest where a lot is unknown, would you prefer the forceful, but narrow pencil beam of a LASER pointer or a bright and wide-angled beam of light such as a flashlight (torch)?

For me, the common-sense and true and tried answer is the latter!

Love, LIGHT, Common-Sense!

[RishiRahul]

Dear Brother,

KP uses Placidian House system which is tropical and hence probably uses cusp as the beginning of house. The KP system is a hybrid system in my view. It borrows the vimshottari dasa and nakshatra and uses the Sub divisions by 'converting or transforming' the dasha bhukti periods into arc longitudes and thus derives Subs. Other later day KP followers went ahead to antar and finer to derive the finer sub-subs and sub-sub-subs etc. Other than those basic considerations and the use of sidereal zodiac and few fleeting references to jyotish combinations, KP has nothing to do with Jyotish. The System's approach, I think, is closer to Jyotish, than KP.

Now, this is not to imply that Jyotish is superior or inferior to KP and vice versa, but just pointing out that they are different functionally! Like two cousins perhaps or half-brothers?

Love, LIGHT, Common-Sense!

Dear Dada,

Yes, the others went to sub subs, while Krishnamurthy kept to star & subs.
They even modified the K.P. ayanamsa to two others and named it modified K.P. ayanamsa 1 & 2!!

I would prefer the half brother thing for my personal reasons

Rishi

[Vinay Jha]

There you go again, Vinay ji! :-)
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? :-) I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example :-)
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji?? :-)


Love and Light and Reality!

Your statements about modern views about cusp, either yours or or tropicalists, is perfect. So, why discuss Ptolemy, whom you have not read directly (no insult intended, because you are not interested in historical research, while I am)? Let us not discuss things not common to us. Neither Ptolemy is common to us, nor Kundalee. There is nothing bad in this position. OK, dada??

Please remember that my references to Kundalee will not be for you.

-VJ

You must learn to distinguish between comments and discussion! For you everything is a fight, a confrontation :-)

I do not have any such pent up frustration or anger...! :-)

Mr Rohiniranjan,

You are unfit to be called dada. In reply to my conciliatory message, you have again started using insulting remarks about me ("For you everything is a fight, a confrontation" ; "pent up frustration or anger"). Who gave you a right to behave like a boss insulting others? All my attempts of maintaining good relations with you have been stalled by your oath that I should never mention Kundalee on internet, which is impossible. I am very busy in adding new modules to Kundalee and after I finish, I will post case studies with screen shots on my websites which you need not visit. Kundalee is not for persons like you, keep away from it, and from me. I felt you do not want to discuss historical research or Kundalee issues, hence I stated that we can discuss other things. But the fact is that you have nothing to discuss at all, internet fora are time passing pastures for you where you intrude merely to kill serious discussions, for which you have been reprimnanded in almost all fora. Try to behave like a gentleman in a public forum, or visit a psychotherapist for your treating your  "pent up frustration or anger".

-VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

...
Dada,
Krishnamurthy did not stop at the sub level of nakshatras, but went to further divisions.
While using Vimshottari dasa went even to pratyantar dasas.
I think he even used horary (his style) to rectify times.
Rishi

Rishi,

KP was nearly entirely or at least very dominantly developed through Horary perspectives (Prashna)! And not just for rectifying birthtimes. KP Readers may be looked into to see if that was the case or not!
Yes Krishnamurthy used pratyantara, prana etc for dasas, but for the star subdivisions, I do not recall him writing about divisions smaller than the sub which is the Bhukti level. I hope this is clearer...?

My strong suspicion is that the sub-subs arose after Krishnamurthy was gone and as part of 'post Krishnamurthy' development of his system blessed by Uchhishtha Ganapathy whom he worshipped as evident from his statement in the Readers.

Anyway, it is not important who discovered what etc as long as it is something that works...

Like everything in Astrology!

Love, Light, Peace,

[RishiRahul]

...
Dada,
Krishnamurthy did not stop at the sub level of nakshatras, but went to further divisions.
While using Vimshottari dasa went even to pratyantar dasas.
I think he even used horary (his style) to rectify times.
Rishi

Rishi,

KP was nearly entirely or at least very dominantly developed through Horary perspectives (Prashna)! And not just for rectifying birthtimes. KP Readers may be looked into to see if that was the case or not!
Yes Krishnamurthy used pratyantara, prana etc for dasas, but for the star subdivisions, I do not recall him writing about divisions smaller than the sub which is the Bhukti level. I hope this is clearer...?

My strong suspicion is that the sub-subs arose after Krishnamurthy was gone and as part of 'post Krishnamurthy' development of his system blessed by Uchhishtha Ganapathy whom he worshipped as evident from his statement in the Readers.

Anyway, it is not important who discovered what etc as long as it is something that works...

Like everything in Astrology!

Love, Light, Peace,

What we are saying, if you look at the above quotes of this post, is the same.

I have found what Krishnamurthy ji mentioned as K.P. works well; in natal and horary.

What the others went ahead to formulate/exaggerate did not have the same level of accuracy like the sub sub etc. and I felt they were pulling it too far, as the case histories given were not very sound.

Even then, I have a desire to research with the house cusps as adapted to other cusp systems like proper porphyrys and placidus.
I mean choose between the two.

Well.... lets see..

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

...
Dada,
Krishnamurthy did not stop at the sub level of nakshatras, but went to further divisions.
While using Vimshottari dasa went even to pratyantar dasas.
I think he even used horary (his style) to rectify times.
Rishi

Rishi,

KP was nearly entirely or at least very dominantly developed through Horary perspectives (Prashna)! And not just for rectifying birthtimes. KP Readers may be looked into to see if that was the case or not!
Yes Krishnamurthy used pratyantara, prana etc for dasas, but for the star subdivisions, I do not recall him writing about divisions smaller than the sub which is the Bhukti level. I hope this is clearer...?

My strong suspicion is that the sub-subs arose after Krishnamurthy was gone and as part of 'post Krishnamurthy' development of his system blessed by Uchhishtha Ganapathy whom he worshipped as evident from his statement in the Readers.

Anyway, it is not important who discovered what etc as long as it is something that works...

Like everything in Astrology!

Love, Light, Peace,

What we are saying, if you look at the above quotes of this post, is the same.

I have found what Krishnamurthy ji mentioned as K.P. works well; in natal and horary.

What the others went ahead to formulate/exaggerate did not have the same level of accuracy like the sub sub etc. and I felt they were pulling it too far, as the case histories given were not very sound.

Even then, I have a desire to research with the house cusps as adapted to other cusp systems like proper porphyrys and placidus.
I mean choose between the two.

Well.... lets see..

Rishi

Dear Rishi (astrologer-hat and not moderator-hat!),

I am not trying to play hard or disagreeing with you just for the heck of it, but it is not that you were saying something wrong and I was opposing what you stated! I am just opening the possibility that when Krishnamurthy dealt with sign-star-sub aspect derived from dasha, he was speaking about the 'cusp' and though he used the finer dasa divisions, like most others do, he was not going finer than sub for obvious reasons and very 'smart' ones!

You see, the dasas are over a period of days and months and less subject to correctness of birthtime, or perhaps the precision of those. A few seconds or a minute of error in birthtime will not change the vimshottari that much, but it can completely lead to a wrong planet if we use sub-sub and sub-sub-sub! Don't you agree?

Jyotishis of late tend to glibly claim that they have rectified the birth time to seconds and deci-seconds but their rectification is very dependent on the ayanamsha they choose and the interpretation of the dasa subs which can be debatable!

If we had a 'book of dasa effiects' that truly worked from chart to chart, though some have been propounded even by scriptural Sages, in even a small number of charts those 'canned phrases' fail miserably. Sure once in a while someone comes across a chart where it seems to fit, but if you systematically look at several charts, there is poor concordance between real life events and the "canned" scriptural phrases.

I know I might be irritating some folks who would cry 'HERETIC!' for one reason or another, but I think it behooves all serious Jyotishis, like us, to tell the truth as it is. Jyotish works and has many gems, but the canned phrases certainly are not really first class gems!

If you want me to shut up, to make it look 'goody goody', I will, but then that would not be the honest thing to do!

Love, Light, Truth,

Rohiniranjan

[Vinay Jha]

>>"If you want me to shut up...."


No, it is a pleasure to read such views.

-VJ

[Vinay Jha]

Namaste,

KP used Placidus house system borrowed from Western astrology as we are now told. But actually it is BPHS bhaavachalita house system (Chowkhamba's Devachandra Jha edition, different from Sitaram Jha's spurious system used by Santhanam and propagated on internet).  In BPHS bhaavachalita house system as well as in Placidus, sometimes two successive houses are owned by a single planet. It is because cusp determines ownership of the entire house, and sometimes two successive cusps fall in same sign (rasi). The difference between BPHS bhaavachalita house system and Placidus is merely due to use of SSS and physical astronomy.

The so-called Placidus sysyem is named after a 17th century astrologer but its earliest known source is 13th century  Arab literature according to western sources. But Placidus house system is 100% SSS and Parashari ((Chowkhamba's Devachandra Jha edition) according to which :

First lagna and Dasham lagna are computed according to SSS formula. Then, like the Placidus method, four quadrants are equally divided and opposite cusps are 180 degrees apart from each other. The SSS MC is cusp of tenth house, unlike the equal house system.

Although Sitaram Jha deleted bhaavachalita chapter in his edition, its proofs remained in other chapters of his edition which proves his crime in deliberately tampering with BPHS. SSS and BPHS are certainly older than Placidus, hence the credit of this house system must go to SSS and BPHS.

I have not tested KP method with SSS-BPHS. It needs to be tested properly. The beauty of SSS-BPHS is that shodash vargas give amazingly accurate timing of events in Vimshottari, provided 360 tithi lunar year is chosen and each vargas's Vimshottari is made according to lunar nakshatra of that varga.

-VJ

[RishiRahul]

...
Dada,
Krishnamurthy did not stop at the sub level of nakshatras, but went to further divisions.
While using Vimshottari dasa went even to pratyantar dasas.
I think he even used horary (his style) to rectify times.
Rishi

Rishi,

KP was nearly entirely or at least very dominantly developed through Horary perspectives (Prashna)! And not just for rectifying birthtimes. KP Readers may be looked into to see if that was the case or not!
Yes Krishnamurthy used pratyantara, prana etc for dasas, but for the star subdivisions, I do not recall him writing about divisions smaller than the sub which is the Bhukti level. I hope this is clearer...?

My strong suspicion is that the sub-subs arose after Krishnamurthy was gone and as part of 'post Krishnamurthy' development of his system blessed by Uchhishtha Ganapathy whom he worshipped as evident from his statement in the Readers.

Anyway, it is not important who discovered what etc as long as it is something that works...

Like everything in Astrology!

Love, Light, Peace,

What we are saying, if you look at the above quotes of this post, is the same.

I have found what Krishnamurthy ji mentioned as K.P. works well; in natal and horary.

What the others went ahead to formulate/exaggerate did not have the same level of accuracy like the sub sub etc. and I felt they were pulling it too far, as the case histories given were not very sound.

Even then, I have a desire to research with the house cusps as adapted to other cusp systems like proper porphyrys and placidus.
I mean choose between the two.

Well.... lets see..

Rishi

Dear Rishi (astrologer-hat and not moderator-hat!),

I am not trying to play hard or disagreeing with you just for the heck of it, but it is not that you were saying something wrong and I was opposing what you stated! I am just opening the possibility that when Krishnamurthy dealt with sign-star-sub aspect derived from dasha, he was speaking about the 'cusp' and though he used the finer dasa divisions, like most others do, he was not going finer than sub for obvious reasons and very 'smart' ones!

You see, the dasas are over a period of days and months and less subject to correctness of birthtime, or perhaps the precision of those. A few seconds or a minute of error in birthtime will not change the vimshottari that much, but it can completely lead to a wrong planet if we use sub-sub and sub-sub-sub! Don't you agree?
Rishi= Absolutely!
I have all/most of Krishnamurthy ji's readers. He did not beyond subs, probably for the reason you mentioned.
If I mentioned he went to sub subs I was wrong.
He gave more importance to the constellation the sub was deposited in; while the star had a different usage.

Jyotishis of late tend to glibly claim that they have rectified the birth time to seconds and deci-seconds but their rectification is very dependent on the ayanamsha they choose and the interpretation of the dasa subs which can be debatable!
Rishi= The word 'glibly' is quite correct.
I do not go to sub subs, as I rarely found accuracy there.


If we had a 'book of dasa effiects' that truly worked from chart to chart, though some have been propounded even by scriptural Sages, in even a small number of charts those 'canned phrases' fail miserably. Sure once in a while someone comes across a chart where it seems to fit, but if you systematically look at several charts, there is poor concordance between real life events and the "canned" scriptural phrases.

I know I might be irritating some folks who would cry 'HERETIC!' for one reason or another, but I think it behooves all serious Jyotishis, like us, to tell the truth as it is. Jyotish works and has many gems, but the canned phrases certainly are not really first class gems!
Rishi= I am sure none here are irritated; certainly not Vinay ji & myself!

If you want me to shut up, to make it look 'goody goody', I will, but then that would not be the honest thing to do!
Rishi= As above:)

Love, Light, Truth,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Namaste,

KP used Placidus house system borrowed from Western astrology as we are now told. But actually it is BPHS bhaavachalita house system (Chowkhamba's Devachandra Jha edition, different from Sitaram Jha's spurious system used by Santhanam and propagated on internet).  In BPHS bhaavachalita house system as well as in Placidus, sometimes two successive houses are owned by a single planet. It is because cusp determines ownership of the entire house, and sometimes two successive cusps fall in same sign (rasi). The difference between BPHS bhaavachalita house system and Placidus is merely due to use of SSS and physical astronomy.
Rishi= I have no problem with who borrowed from whom; as I always believed that most were originated in the East, and got mixed up in History; and would not like to prove/substantiate that.
Vinay ji, one help please! If it is a problem you can p.m. me also.
Is Placidus the same as SSS?
If so, I have no problems and I could accept this quite gracefully, and this can help in my further research.

The so-called Placidus sysyem is named after a 17th century astrologer but its earliest known source is 13th century  Arab literature according to western sources. But Placidus house system is 100% SSS and Parashari ((Chowkhamba's Devachandra Jha edition) according to which :
Rishi=I repeat my words (just) above again!!


First lagna and Dasham lagna are computed according to SSS formula. Then, like the Placidus method, four quadrants are equally divided and opposite cusps are 180 degrees apart from each other. The SSS MC is cusp of tenth house, unlike the equal house system.
Rishi=I noticed this too!

Although Sitaram Jha deleted bhaavachalita chapter in his edition, its proofs remained in other chapters of his edition which proves his crime in deliberately tampering with BPHS. SSS and BPHS are certainly older than Placidus, hence the credit of this house system must go to SSS and BPHS.
Rishi=No comments on what others did for political reasons.


I have not tested KP method with SSS-BPHS. It needs to be tested properly. The beauty of SSS-BPHS is that shodash vargas give amazingly accurate timing of events in Vimshottari, provided 360 tithi lunar year is chosen and each vargas's Vimshottari is made according to lunar nakshatra of that varga.
Rishi=The ayanamsa Krishnamurthy ji followed is about 6/7 minutes away from N.C. ayanamsa.
Trying with sss would be a great study!

-VJ

Thanks
Rishi

[Vinay Jha]

Rishi Ji,

I devote my time to historical research in astrology not because I have plenty of time or I have to prove something, but because I have to find out the original ideas in astrology as propounded by rishis. Two and three decades ago , I was a secularist, but now I have sufficient proofs to convince myself that rishis had special faculties to receive Wisdom hidden to lesser mortals.

Placidus house system is 100% SSS-BPHS bhaavachalita, but now the mathematical formula for computing first and tenth Placidus houses have changed, hence values differ, otherwise the method is still the same. In JHora,  Placidus system even in SSS mode gives different results which it should not. Perhaps it is because PVR uses the built in module of Swiss Ephemeris written by Dieter Koch for Placidus &c, which uses Drik and not SSS. I do not know what is PVR's view on this topic. I will ask him today.

I want to experiment with KP system within SSS-BPHS framework (house system and SSS-BPHS ayanamsha &c).

I want to upload 35 years of Ashtaka-varga graphs of Congress-versus-BJP.  It is a great thing. If I upload it at my website, MB will not allow me to give the link, and here in MB I do not know how to attach pictures.

-VJ

[Brahma Mihira]

In JHors Beta2, SSS mode SSS house system is correct as SSS-BPHS or slightly wrong?

[Vinay Jha]

In JHors Beta2, SSS mode SSS house system is correct as SSS-BPHS or slightly wrong?

In JHora-7.52-Beta2, SSS mode (calculations settings as recommended by Vinay Jha) house system is in accordance to SSS-BPHS but only in House-Tab at the bottom of the Key-Info page which displays the statistics of house data ; the D1 bhaavachalita in it is NOT as per SSS. From the tabulated house data, not down the start and end positions of each house and put each planet into correct house manualy, which will give SSS-BPHS system, and lord of cusp should be made lord of entire house.

In this SSS mode of JHora, Kashinath-Hora is suggested as my recommendation, although BPHS recommends Parivritti(bicyclical) D2. D30 (Parashari) is also erroneous, but PVR has promised to debug it in next release.

-VJ