Ayanmsa - Which one - only Yes or No...

[Rajesh Kakkanatt]

Please no puranas... just some one let me know which one is proven by masters... no long essays please...

[RishiRahul]

One coulg go thru a previous mysticboard discussion  on this topic:

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... sa&start=0

My views are pasted below (mentioned in the above viewtopic.

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:34 pm


I am quite new to the forum, and totally unaware ofthe ayanamsa bit until Swethaji apprised me about it.
Out of the so many ayanamsas available in our planet Earth, in my experience 4 seems very authentic with Vimshottari and Yogini dasas. 3 of them are Indian made ayanamsas  namely 1)B.V. Ramans 2) K.P.3)N.C.Lahiri. The 4th one is by a Western. It is Fagan ayanamsa.

Considering that the K.P. system of seeing with the help of star and sublord needs proper degrees and minutes for correct predictions,( also the nos 1 - 249 horary method) I have seen that the N.C. and K.P. ayanamsa works best with it.
Someone could research between the 2 ayanamsas while usingthe K.P.horary(1 - 249 method). They work very well with yogini dasa too. Please note that the difference between them is ony 7 minutes, which is negligible when compared to the other above mntiones ayanamsas.

The ayanamsha of B.V.Raman is not incorrect too, but in fact quite accurate, but the method of giving readings with it needs a slight adaptation. To the best I can explain,by writing in this esteemed forum, is that the natural qualities/ karak qualities of the planets reflect better using this dasa. Sharp changes in mentality of the native is seen when he experiences dasa/antardasa changes while using B.V. Raman ayanamsa.
One more thing: Say if Saturn Mahadasa starts in June 2007 for a native as per N.C./KP ayanamsa, then Saturn dasa will arrive as per B.V. ayanamsa ( 9 months/13 months/24 months) before June 2007( depending on the starting dasa and antardasa. Suppose as per B.V. ayanamsa Saturn dasa started in Sept 2006:= The Saturns slowing down effect was cast invisibly from that period, like a shadow in the natives life from then. From june 2007 saturns dasa will start taking the functional qualities of Saturn.
A life progession will be noted when we follow antardasas while using Fagan ayanamsa and can judje the where and how the dasa will land us.

This is what I am able to share with you in writing. The rest has to be explained properly with actual charts. Some times what we try to explain in writing is not fully understood by the readers as we have different skils in communicating abilities.

Till I hear from you all.
RishiRahul

While using N.C./K.P. we, naturally use the natural and functional qualities of planets as mentioned in hindu astrology.


Questions/clarifications are welcome.

RishiRahul

[Rajesh Kakkanatt]

Thank you for your immediate reply Rahul.

According to KN Rao NC Lahri is the preferred one. He also says it should be slightly changed, do you know the change?

Regards

Rajesh

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="Rajesh Kakkanatt"]Please no puranas... just some one let me know which one is proven by masters... no long essays please...[/quote]

MASTERS, and by that I presume you meant classical masters like Parashara, Vedavyaasa, Satyacharyaa, Varahamihira (& Kalidasa, Dhundiraja, Mukunda Vallabha etc etc) DID NOT recommend any ayanamsha or even mentioned, let alone proved any ayanamsha actually! WHY? You will have to find them to get the answer!

modern masters have given different values, each vouched in blood by them and their disciples. You pick the drummer that you have chosen to march too! Most of these 'followers' may not have actually tested their teacher's ayanamsha in a scientific or even documented way and are experiencing Bhakti Yoga, candidly speaking!!

How is that for a short but honest essay?

RR

[Rajesh Kakkanatt]

Thank you Rohinirajan for your kind reply. But I have a doubt, why then if Classic masters did not mention regarding Ayanmsa, its so important to us and why all calculations depend upon it?

Best Regards

Rajesh Kakkanatt

Please no puranas... just some one let me know which one is proven by masters... no long essays please...

MASTERS, and by that I presume you meant classical masters like Parashara, Vedavyaasa, Satyacharyaa, Varahamihira (& Kalidasa, Dhundiraja, Mukunda Vallabha etc etc) DID NOT recommend any ayanamsha or even mentioned, let alone proved any ayanamsha actually! WHY? You will have to find them to get the answer!

modern masters have given different values, each vouched in blood by them and their disciples. You pick the drummer that you have chosen to march too! Most of these 'followers' may not have actually tested their teacher's ayanamsha in a scientific or even documented way and are experiencing Bhakti Yoga, candidly speaking!!

How is that for a short but honest essay?

RR

[Rohiniranjan]

Rajesh ji,

You misunderstood me or maybe I was not clear enough. The references to the use of nirayana zodiac was there and jyotish does require the sidereal zodiac. Please do not assume otherwise. People have tried to use jyotish with tropical/seasonal zodiac and the experiments have been unsuccessful.

What the MASTERS did not spend any time was ayanamsha, the quantity that needs to be deducted from tropical zodiac in order to derive the sidereal values.

Why do we need the tropical zodiac? Because it has a clear and verifiable reference, that being the equinoxes. The position of the sun on the day of spring or vernal equinox is the position of the tropical zero aries, the beginning of the tropical zodiac. This is measurable.

Zero aries in the sidereal zodiac is not a verifiable or visible marker but has to be derived.

I am no expert in vedic astronomy but I believe there are ways of deriving the sidereal zodiac calculations directly, without having to first calculate tropical values and then correct them for the precessional error. Perhaps that is the reason why ayanamsha was not an important calculation because it was incorporated in the direct math that was done in order to arrive at the sidereal zodiacal values.

For a deeper and better explanation, you would need to seek out an expert in vedic mathematics. BHU varanasi had a department in jyotish under their sanskrit faculty back in mid seventies when I was at that university. Perhaps they are still maintaining the department and you may get some REAL scholarly help there in contrast to fishing around in internet. This is my sincere advice and so please do not take it any other way.

Best wishes,

Rohiniranjan

[quote="Rajesh Kakkanatt"]Thank you Rohinirajan for your kind reply. But I have a doubt, why then if Classic masters did not mention regarding Ayanmsa, its so important to us and why all calculations depend upon it?

Best Regards

Rajesh Kakkanatt

[quote="rohiniranjan"][quote="Rajesh Kakkanatt"]Please no puranas... just some one let me know which one is proven by masters... no long essays please...[/quote]

MASTERS, and by that I presume you meant classical masters like Parashara, Vedavyaasa, Satyacharyaa, Varahamihira (& Kalidasa, Dhundiraja, Mukunda Vallabha etc etc) DID NOT recommend any ayanamsha or even mentioned, let alone proved any ayanamsha actually! WHY? You will have to find them to get the answer!

modern masters have given different values, each vouched in blood by them and their disciples. You pick the drummer that you have chosen to march too! Most of these 'followers' may not have actually tested their teacher's ayanamsha in a scientific or even documented way and are experiencing Bhakti Yoga, candidly speaking!!

How is that for a short but honest essay?

RR[/quote][/quote]

[Rajesh Kakkanatt]

Thank you very much for your kind reply.

Rajesh Kakkanatt

[Rohiniranjan]

[quote="Rajesh Kakkanatt"]Thank you very much for your kind reply.

Rajesh Kakkanatt[/quote]

I have also posted my thoughts in another thread. I don't know how to post the direct URL link to that as I have seen others do in this forum. So at the risk of being repetitive, I am copying and posting the message here. I think the message number is 141404.

<begin quote>
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:22 am &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;
Early seventies was when I was introduced to the seriousness of this ayanamsha debate, nearly half a decade after I really got serious about jyotish and that means about the time when I had gotten under my belt the basics of jyotish, and had made a few predictions and readings that convinced my friends and relatives to treat me with care, if not respect!

Ah those moments of achievement, waiting to be shattered brutally as I moved from my usual fare of studying classics and remaining immersed in charts, charts, more charts, into the realm of astrological serials! Subscriptions to a hindi and an english monthly publications were my first brush with the uncertainty inherent in Jyotish. My innocence thus royally destroyed, I can relate to exactly what some or many of you must be feeling!

It is all part of the saadhna, and growing up and maturing and opening your eyes and minds to what is going on around in the world and not just within your personal "well" and surroundings!

Astrology is not a confined well but a large tent. Even if you do not embrace it, at least pay attention and try to remain interested in what the possibilities are and that have been explored by others, worldwide. Don't assume hastily that your way is the highway and the rest of the world is sadly mistaken. Astrology has generally attracted very highly motivated and intelligent people. NOT everything that they found and utilized can be a sad mistake. Remain respectful even if you do not understand their jargon and lingo at first. Nothing goes to waste, and everything has some usefulness.

Why has the issue of ayanamsha not been settled already once and for all times despite some decades of effort by many very capable jyotishis and researchers?

Some reasons include:

a) Jyotish is not black and white and as reproducible as an engineering plant would be as it turns out nuts of precise dimensions and tools that have micron tolerances! Try convincing an engineer that FACT! Then there is the confounding or at least 'fuzzying' influence of non-uniform sets of techniques in use. Some use this dasha or that or different repertoires, others interpret things such as Jaimini attributes vastly differently or vargas for that matter, and some use ashtakavargas as if their life depends on it, while others simply don't use it! The list of those discrepancies and non-uniformities grows larger the more you dig!

b) Jyotish is not a single complete system but a compendium of many sub-systems each of which is capable of thriving independently! Not the entire bag of tricks and techniques, in other words, would be needed by each individual practitioner at all times or even most times and hence ignorance would not necessarily get in the way of performance at a given moment! This is a big advantage and yet a major shortcoming!

c) Most ayanamsha post-facto research has suffered from two problems.
{c.i} The first deals with lack of adequate 'blinding'. Little of the research to prove one or the other ayanamsha has been done in an unbiased manner. Trying to fit past events with dashas etc has an inherent weakness, already described in point (a) above!
{c.ii} To complicate further, much of the wider research and confirming and 'proving' as it is called in the homeopathic framework was carried out by individuals who belonged to a school of thought or a school of astrology literally where the disciples were doing research to prove their teacher's already chosen or recommended ayanamsha. Without casting aspertions on anyone's motives or integrity, any such research would be considered flawed in the modern scientific framework and practice!

d) There is very little transparent sharing of raw data and raw research findings (for a variety of legitimate reasons at times) and too many conclusions and bottom lines being tossed in the vein of, "Trust me, I have tried and tested and this or that is the ayanamsha to go with!" &nbsp; HARDLY convincing regardless of which proverbial "horse" is mouthing those assuring words!

e) A general lack of understanding of and background in pitfalls in population research and hypothesis testing does not help even if it may not get in the way of some of the qualitative research.

f) too many of these mini-explorations are being carried out in silos and groups that are incommunicado with one another for fear of being scooped and need to maintain secrecy and exclusivity. Not ideal but very real issues there, folks! Plagiarism and astrological research are not mutually exclusive entities!

g) ... I leave that for you to fill in! This is a living list!

Please carry on, and good luck <!> for an early resolution that satisfies everyone ...!

Rohiniranjan
<end quote>

[Rajesh Kakkanatt]

Dear Rohinirajan,

You wrote: "I don't know how to post the direct URL link to that as I have seen others do in this forum"


My sujection:
Just Copy and Past the URL it will then redirect. Let me try here

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... highlight=

The above link is only an example, not related to this topic, Ayanmsa

[RishiRahul]

Dear Rohinirajan,

You wrote: "I don't know how to post the direct URL link to that as I have seen others do in this forum"


My sujection:
Just Copy and Past the URL it will then redirect. Let me try here

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... highlight=

The above link is only an example, not related to this topic, Ayanmsa

Hello,

The link of the thread desired to be checked by you is given below. It is the 11th. page. If desired you could read the entire thread by going back.

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... c&start=50


RishiRahul
moderator

[Rohiniranjan]

Hi Rishi,

Is there a way by which the URL to a specific message can be posted as a link? Some of the threads go into 15 and 16 pages and it may be more convenient to be able to get straight to a specific posting.

I realize that you must be preparing for travel etc. So post at your leisure after you have the time :-)

RR

[quote="RishiRahul"][quote="Rajesh Kakkanatt"]Dear Rohinirajan,

You wrote: [i]"I don't know how to post the direct URL link to that as I have seen others do in this forum"[/i]


My sujection:
[i]Just [b]Copy[/b] and [b]Past [/b]the URL it will then redirect. Let me try here[/i] :)

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... highlight=

The above link is only an example, not related to this topic, Ayanmsa :)[/quote]


Hello,

The link of the thread desired to be checked by you is given below. It is the 11th. page. If desired you could read the entire thread by going back.

http://mysticboard.org/vi ... c&start=50


RishiRahul
moderator[/quote]

[RishiRahul]

Dear Dada,

Just open the page of the thread you would like to go to.

Copy and paste the link given in http://...................(URL).

Then that page, with the links to the previous pages and the next ones(if any) would be included for the reader to go to also, if desired.

Hope I have been able to explain.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

Rishi,

This procedure takes me to the top message in the thread.
How do I reference a posting that was on the 13th page of a 20 page thread directly and I do not want the reader to wade through the other messages?

RR

[quote="RishiRahul"]Dear Dada,

Just open the page of the thread you would like to go to.

Copy and paste the link given in http://...................(URL).

Then that page, with the links to the previous pages and the next ones(if any) would be included for the reader to go to also, if desired.

Hope I have been able to explain.

RishiRahul[/quote]

[RishiRahul]

Rishi,

This procedure takes me to the top message in the thread.
How do I reference a posting that was on the 13th page of a 20 page thread directly and I do not want the reader to wade through the other messages?

RR

Dear Dada,

Just open the page of the thread you would like to go to.

Copy and paste the link given in http://...................(URL).

Then that page, with the links to the previous pages and the next ones(if any) would be included for the reader to go to also, if desired.

Hope I have been able to explain.

RishiRahul

Dada,

That is just what I mentioned.

You open the 13th. page of the 20 page thread.
So, when you have the 13th. page open, you will find the url of the (13th) page on top.

Just copy and paste it.

Hope this helps.

RishiRahul

[visveswaran]

mostly LAHIRIayanamsa is used in india