Astrology Research

[bondbond333]

Hello all,

I hope most of the people in this forum have gone through this site at least once and if not kindly go through the site. It has lot of interesting research work done in last 50 years.

http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/hpage.htm

There was a research carried about by Dean and kelly in UK on timed twins, i.e people born at same place and almost same time published in 2003. Subjects were born on an average of 4.8 min apart and they found absolutely no correlation between the timed twins they took some 110 factors into account and all relations were proved to be less than chance
( The sample pool size was 2101). The subjects were tested at periodic intervals of time in their life at 11, 16, 23

Do any one in this forum know of any research done by vedic astrologers on timed twins and would like to know opinions of others.

Regards,
Gs

[Raman Deep Singh]

Hey Gs ji,
I think u shud go thru PVR Narasimha rao ji's site . You will find a case study something like this only, where 2 twins are researched and explained why they did not have similar life pattern.

That material shud be on our board too but i think it will be easier for you to search it in his site.

Leme try to pull that for you if possible

Regards,
Raman

[bondbond333]

Hello Raman Ji,

I found PVR ji's post. I am aware of Divisional charts but i have not seen astrologers using beyond navamsa(D-9). They say even though we know our time its only better to look only upto D-9 (and sometimes till D-12).

Generally  in D-9 we get 12-13 minutes window for a lagna and which is considered as acceptable range for birth time.

In PVR ji's example he spoke abt 2 min and that to for twins and in all seriousness two minutes shouldnt be given that much importance and even then only certain house results get effected as we look into D-30, D-60 or higher its not as if entire life of person changes completely with 2 minutes error and there must be at least high correlations. Largely Dasas follow in similar way and certain strong impacts in rasi chart like Debilitated Saturn or placement of rahu in lagna or many other combination's should give effects similarly.

What i am saying is if two timed twins i,e two child's born at same place almost same time for different mothers should in all probability be quite similar in their outlook as they are governed by same planets and lords.

Regards,
Gs

[RishiRahul]

Astrologers mainly follow till D9 because of 2 reasons.        One, being the time frame you mentioned.      Two,  most are not aware of how to see the deeper charts beyond D9.

In twin births I have a data of a native I know personally. Both look very similar and I still get mixed up even when I meet them again.
Their birth times are 2.5 minutes different. Bu considering the dead accuracy of the time which is never the case, I did not get confidence to have a try yet.

The answer is more in the cusps. I mean the star and sub star the house cusp is deposited into.

Both had schooling and similar results in the same years and have similar interests. Met their girlfriends around the same time. But marriage not at the same time. Went to different career streams in the same year... etc. etc.

I propose to correct their charts and do a study sometime, but not getting the time/inclination yet.

RishiRahul

[Aegeus]

Sometimes with twins one will act as a polarity to the other and they balance each other out. Like I know two twins and one of them has a job an apartment and lives in the system, the other lives out of a back pack practices yoga and is out the the system best he can.

[bondbond333]

Hello all,

One clarification: Studying twins doesn't yield good results and its not that useful because you will not get big pool with 2-3 min difference as it takes time for twins to be born generally 15 min and even more.

Even then there is always a chance of them doing similar things because they belong to same house and are brought up in same environment. So they end up doing same stuff and attending same schools and all that stuff. And they have same genes to give similar outlooks but that's not guaranteed as you have given examples.

Thats the reason why researchers try to look up for timed twins. Again timed twins are those that are born at same place and same time but for different mothers. Here we are canceling same background and genes factors now according to astrology they must be guided by their planets and dasas.

This is a definitive way to test whether we are guided by planets or not because their is no reason for prediction by astrologers because we can simply study their lives and choices and see similarities.

And some may also get doubt whether many timed twins are born and the answer is yes. In a metropolitan in India if u take 3 govt hospitals their is a chance of at least 100 deliveries a day and my Doctor cousin has said that many times while they are in house surgeon they used to deliver 2-3 child's at a time (i.e cutting of Umbilical cord ) simultaneously with one doctor for one patient. So in general we can get good enough sample if we jst take the data for a week. So there are cases that can be studied the only thing is if astrology institutes are willing to do research.

Have any one of u had such cases or read such similar charts before?

Regards,
Gs

[bondbond333]

Sorry instead of making them bold i quoted them. they are my statements not quotes.

[arian_1c]

Dear GS ji,
The answer to this situation/dilemma belongs in one of your posts in this thread...
"according to astrology they must be guided by their planets and dasas."

The planets only guide... thats all they do... I remember when I first started studying astrology I was given a big lecture on fate and free will by my guruji....
I wonder why nobody ever talks about free will and how we've a lot to do with our lives... It is upto us to fructify our good yogas and nullify our bad ones(upto whatsoever extent possible).... Remember everyone on the planet is different owing to his/her FREE WILL.... The beautifully deep DES-KAAL-PATRA should never be forgotten.

I would like to add one more thing to this post, and I may be repeating it, but it seems relevant here...
Traditionally, a reading was not a reading but a dialogue wherein an astrologer had an opportunity to get an insight into the querist's mind and could allow for his spirituality to guide him... The way its done nowadays just doesn't seems right... I may be the only one but I believe it is not possible to give a reading on the basis of a chart only, it is imp to have a dialogue with the person, get to understand him/his problems/queries and then be blessed enough to make the right predictions... Afterall, like I believe, astrology is not some science where one can follow patterns...One must have the guiding light to show others the way...
peace
sahil

[bondbond333]

Hello Sahil,

Thanks for posting something even though i would have liked some one to give more examples of timed twins. I don't think many might have had a chance to look at such charts. The one off example shown by PVR ji abt twins shouldn't satisfy any one us.

But i still think study of timed twins would solve lot of riddles.

Regards,
Gs

[bondbond333]

Hello sahil,

Now coming to fate and free will. I would like to know what your Guruji has to say about free will.

And do think we really have free will ?.

I would also like to know ur opinion and also others abt matching charts for marriage in the context of fate and free will; Do you think we have any choice in that matter at all?
Now a days it has become so common to look for many matches for right compatibility. It seems no one is willing to compromise.
Even choosing birth time of child is common and ladies are having Cesarean for right birth time babies even though its risky. Is this all justified ?

Regards,
Gs

[arian_1c]

Hello sahil,

Now coming to fate and free will. I would like to know what your Guruji has to say about free will.

And do think we really have free will ?.

I would also like to know ur opinion and also others abt matching charts for marriage in the context of fate and free will; Do you think we have any choice in that matter at all?
Now a days it has become so common to look for many matches for right compatibility. It seems no one is willing to compromise.
Even choosing birth time of child is common and ladies are having Cesarean for right birth time babies even though its risky. Is this all justified ?

Regards,
Gs

I will answer some of your questions in this post and leave the rest to the next one...
Firstly, You ask whether there really is a thing as free will?
Well, this ones a catch22 isn't it.... like I said believers will be believers and skeptics will be just that, skeptics... It is practically impossible to give an example wherein a skeptic can't say, Oh that is fate!!!
I am not undermining fate, oh no I am not, it probably plays a much bigger role for weaklings like us, but Free Will does exists. It is not something to be explained or justified, it is something that can only be felt. If you really wanna feel Free Will, try doing something that is ethically and morally wrong, and then your antara-mann will warn you, give you choices. If you can feel that, voila, you've got Free Will.

I would also like to know ur opinion and also others abt matching charts for marriage in the context of fate and free will; Do you think we have any choice in that matter at all?
I didn't follow the part where you say, matching charts in the context of fate and free will. Does that means, if we have any control over who our charts are matched to? Plz explain it further...
On the other hand, if you ask me of matching charts for compatibility?
I would say people have got it completely wrong, I am personally not big on matching charts for compatibility, because, I don't believe matching the charts gaurantees a happy married life, and thats the most important thing, isn't in, happiness in marriage.
Even choosing birth time of child is common and ladies are having Cesarean for right birth time babies even though its risky. Is this all justified ?

To this I would say, even a tourist guide can only take you around places he knows of and that little knowledge is a big curse.

It is my strong belief that before anyone starts learning astrology, he must give some thought to the Karma Theory and that of Fate and Free Will. You can google both of these terms and get lots of links for them probably.

You talk of timed twins, yet you forget, that its two different souls you are talking about. Two different souls with different baggages of good and bad past karmas...

[bondbond333]

Well Sahil let me start from the end.

You talk of timed twins, yet you forget, that its two different souls you are talking about. Two different souls with different baggages of good and bad past karmas...

Here timed twins theory is purely for testing astrology statistically without involving astrologers for predictions. Because once we know that two babies are born at the same time and same place they should have same planetary positions and according to astrology they should have similar or at least closely related life and events and if we could study theirs lives for 20 years we should have clear picture.  And in fact this has been done in Uk but i have some doubts abt some artifacts and some biases and asked if our own astrologers have thought abt it or done some research in this field. And I still think its the best way to test for astrology.

I didn't follow the part where you say, matching charts in the context of fate and free will. Does that means, if we have any control over who our charts are matched to? Plz explain it further...

Thats what i meant. Do we have any choice in choosing our partner because we are indirectly using free will by looking at many choices and choosing the "best" match and yet the same time accepting predeterminism by using astrology. That is to say that we are willing to look through astrology to see whether their lifes are going to be good or not but are not ready to accept that the match could also have been pre determined way ahead of time may be at the time conception itself.

Now coming to free will
What i believe is we have complete free will (At least we believe we have free will) to do what ever we want but the result is not in our hand. Now whats the worth of a free will when the result is not guaranteed. So at the end of the day its a conditional free will.

Karma and rebirth

Karma and rebirth very tricky things. I know astrology depends on it but its a very tricky subject. I dont know if i want to go deep into it but one thing i am going say from personal point of view "Believing that we have multiple births and deaths sounds more of an egoistic statement than fact".

Regards,
Gs

[mysbcrs]

Though the subject can do without more cnfusion, I thought of putting in some questions and thoughts that have been bugging me.

Free will - A question based on Ramayan can  pose serious challenge to freewill theory.

Sri Ram's decision to proceed for Vanavaas is normally understood to be his exercising his freewill. Though he chose to take the path of "Pitru Vaakya Paripaalan" he could have done otherwise (though of-course it is inconceivable). But remember the story of deliverance of Ahilya wife of sage Gauthama. Guathama cursed his wife and upon her entreaties for forgiveness he said that many years later Sri Ram's feet would touch her stone form and she will get her deliverance. This means sage Gauthama knew that Sri Ram would come for Vanavaas well before Sri Ram was even born.

Does this not mean that Sri Rama in fact did not have free will? Unless of-course we conclude that example of Tretayug is not valid in Kaliyug, in which case Jyothish lessons should use chart of someone from Kaliyug as an example chart instead of Sri Ram.

Karma and rebirth - If we were to take a position that two natives with exactly same chart will see different results based on their past karma, the need and the basis for analysing a chart is defeated. This is because karma, due to our limitation in not being able to see the past, can never be used for prediction. Usage of karma to explain past is a no-brainer since anything that an astroger can not explain can be attributed to karma



CRS

[Rhutobello]

Free will - A question based on Ramayan can  pose serious challenge to freewill theory.

Let me ask you a question...or to all those don't believing in free will.

1) Do you agree that if free will exist, then it have to exist in all humans?

2)Do you agree that if Free will exist for 6,5 billion people, then it will me very hard to micro control each human?

3)
If free will don't exist, then you can't control anything in your life....do you agree....if not...then we must have a free will and go to 2.

4) If you don't believe in Free will, let us do an experiment.

5)When you are about to raise in the morning, say to yourself...I stay in bed 5 minutes more.
If you are able to do this, then you have shown Free Will.

6)When you walk down a street, and you will walk pass a shop, try to stop and ask the vendor for a price on an item you don't want at all.

If you are able....then you have a free will.

7Let us take marriages.....Do all who plan an marriage between 2 people always get a cry of joy from the couple?

If not...then they have other meanings, and show their free will.

8) Are you always pleased with your life? Do you never carry a thought that something might be different?

If you do, then you show that you have a free will, because if it don't exist then you would not know about anything else then what you are bound to do.

9)One who believe that they have no free will, will seek advices, even if that is of no use, because if you shall change something then you must have a Free will to do it.
So they loose initiative, they have a peg to put all their laziness on, and say...if I am bound to it..then I will get it....and if they so feel their life is miserable, then they show big frustration, and ask what to do, BUT that will be of no use in this belief...because if you shall better your situation then you must use your "FREE WILL", and then you show that you can change your future if you use personal initiative, which are the WILL to better your life!

FREE WILL are NOT EQUAL to do what one will, it is the ability to put up goals, and work towards them, It is the ability to chose to say YES or NO, it is the ability to lay lazy in bed the whole day, and let fate bring you what it has to give.
It is the ability to have one belief, and by discussion change it to another.
It is the ability to steal, to kill, to rape, or to use your spare time to help other people, or give your asset to charity or to build an Empire for your own need, it is the ability to go to war, it is the ability to chose to blow him/her self up...well you find it everywhere...it is just to open the eyes and mind, and you will see it clearly

[Raman Deep Singh]

Dear Rhuto ji,
We already had this discussion regarding free will and destiny before and u seem to be an ardent beliver of free will
But what we forget is that more than anything we need to have an open mind , we may or may not be wrong but we definetely
end up learning something.

You said that :-
5)When you are about to raise in the morning, say to yourself...I stay in bed 5 minutes more.
If you are able to do this, then you have shown Free Will.

Now what makes you think that destiny never wanted you to stay in bed for 5 mins more.Destiny
may actually wanna to stay in bed for 5 mins and miss your next train to work.

How will u explain someone not getting job for 2 years even when u r academically sound, got good enough degrees, smart enough to clear interview  trying very hard to get job thru every resource possible BUT
still not geting job..FREE WILL??? nope, destiny

As u always say u dont know much about astrology especially VEDIC ASTROLOGY so what u think is use of astrology and how
we are able to predict things.Why this sub-forum is created in MB to discuss which does ot even exist.

There have ben events when it was written 1000s of years ago.Sage mentioned that in 2006 in evening a guy from Russia with his wife will come to an astrologer and will get his prediction.And again im repeating he predicted this 1000s of years ago.
And this actually happened when his chart was opened in Hoshiarpur , punjab,india
Regards,
Raman