Lets start again!!!

[RishiRahul]

Dear Rhuto,

Are we speaking of the Vedic idea of 'Free Will' still?   Or something else!!

RishiRahul

[Rhutobello]

I think we are talking about free will.

I think we are posting our view on it.

I think each and one of us then shall try to figure out what they believe most in, what they think function best for them, after all, they are the one who shall live their life.

To only post one sort of will, might be educating for us who don't know it, but just a conformation for those who do, by putting both up, both parts might learn from each other, both parts might get an eyeopener, both parts might get better understanding of each other, but that can only happen if one read and try to understand, and then find the sense in it

[RishiRahul]

I think we are talking about free will.

I think we are posting our view on it.

I think each and one of us then shall try to figure out what they believe most in, what they think function best for them, after all, they are the one who shall live their life.

To only post one sort of will, might be educating for us who don't know it, but just a conformation for those who do, by putting both up, both parts might learn from each other, both parts might get an eyeopener, both parts might get better understanding of each other, but that can only happen if one read and try to understand, and then find the sense in it

Hey Rhuto,

We are speaking of the Vedic idea of free will in the Vedic forum... and also posting the view on the Vedic idea of free will.  



RishiRahul

[Rhutobello]

okay...sorry...I let my post stands....but withdraw from further discussion since I haven't a clue in your Tradition, neither trade ...good luck

[RishiRahul]

Hi Rhuto,

That would be bad. By now, also if you go through the posts and the links given in the posts in detail you would have got a reasonable clear picture of the kind of 'Free Will' we are talking about. Also in subsequent posts your perception would get clearer.

All/most of our philosophers spoke of it and tied to explain it. Mybe it has ot some negative connotations.... apparently. But overall it is very supportive.  And it is not against the theory of 'Karma', but supports it in a different way.

Please stand for further discussion here. And dont be angry.



RishiRahul

[bondbond333]

whats the point in discussion if everyone has the same view.
So Mr.Rhuto kindly participate further with your opinions.

Regards,
Gs

[bondbond333]

CRS Ji its nice to know that u enjoyed the article but kindly dont add "Ji" to me i am almost half ur age.

Regards,
Gs

[soulsearch]

Dear Rhutobello Sir, Rishirahulji and other members,

If I may choose to speak on this forum and on a topic that is a regular one and amidst a lot of higher evolved souls.

Dont Know much about Destiny,Free Will or Will for that matter of fact. But of what little I have learned in the past few months is that you are what your thoughts are. But the brain at a single point of time is subjected to so many different levels of assimilation that virtually what is being filtered and what is being rejected is all on the basis of emotions.

If an astrologer plants a thought in the mind of the native that he could be a doctor and the native trusts the same astrologer then avenues do open for the same, maybe slowly maybe with time,maybe never. Even if the same dont open up, the native could/would be happier just with being an accountant. Is it the abilitiy of the native to be content or to be called a failure...whose choice of label is it?

If an astrologer plants a thought in the mind of the native for marriages or second or third marriages.The native rejects the same.However the astrologer/creator keeps re-inforcing the same..whose ability/free-will is to keep transforming the same and keep fighting.Till the time the native says NO more !

When you read thoughts, you read thoughts that are created, emotions exist for everybody.Whether we choose to act on that emotion or not wouldnt it be the free will of the person.

If astrologers come together for a purpose to create something that the native wasnt/isint comfortable with then whose purpose does it serve.When a single person wears the hat of an astrologer or parent or father or sister and friend and creates a perception..what is the basis of that creation.

In Hindu religion, we believe that our actions create Karma. We can pay as per our limit. Who decides our limit would be the individual self. IF a man earns well and respects his elders and takes care of people till his capacity then he creates more positive karma.I might sound very naive( and def earthly) in my thoughts but maybe the native is indeed tired.

What eventually happens to the native ..that would actually be the destiny.WHo decides the native , the emoticons  or GOD?

Regards
Mani

[Rhutobello]

Thx for feedback.

First of all, I was not angry, maybe a bit disappointed, because if one want to progress in life, one need to listen to different opinions with an open mind, evaluate them, after that you can do with them what you want,.
You can waste them, ponder on them, or take them into your heart.
If no other opinions are given, then it is up to yourself to search for improvement, if you don't do that, you will then go true life like a zombie, where you put one foot forward at the time and are sure you aren't outside your small track, at least that is how I think.

The reason for saying I would withdraw, is the fact that it did look like mod-admin was having a "quarrel", we was not...it was again opinions against opinions, and we are attending this discussions as member of this board, and not as officials.

I give thx to Soulsearch for her post, it show that she has evaluated, and received opinions that belongs to her, and by doing so, she will get a much more personal life, then one who just are dictated through Tradition and religion.

One of our most important words is "WHY" with a question mark behind "WHY?"

If you use that question often, and try to find the answer from your heart, and not from what other tells you, then you will through your action improve yourself, BUT also your society because you start to question those thing you don't find "true" from your heart.

Most laws and Traditions are made from groups of men, in a time when they seems suitable, But the world become smaller, life progress, new thing is introduced in an ever growing speed.

Maybe some thing we saw as natural for 1000 years ago, seems not so natural today?
But if we don't allow us self to evaluate, then we will still live in a time 1000 years ago, and tell this is how we are supposed to live, because we don't know anything else.

Again NO OFFENSE Given.....its just my own thoughts

[mysbcrs]

Though much of what I posted was in favour of fate, it is by no means intended to curtail purposeful action or question the need of it. But whether we are active thus or resign ourselves to fate and withdraw, I feel does not depend on what view we subscribe to (fate or free will). On the other hand it is our innate nature which inexorably goads us to act (which includes a choice not to act). At best we may use this argument to rationalize our action.

Then how else is this debate useful? If I have the belief in fate in the background in the midst of the numerous purposeful actions that I do, I will probably feel less discouraged when some or many of my actions do not achieve the intended purpose. I will also not let my ego balloon when some or many of my actions do indeed achieve the intended purpose. I think both are good for the soul.

Incidentally, this debate I dont think is unique to followers of "vedic religion". I am sure people from other religions, clans have had similar debates may be with some modifications to suit their contexts.


CRS

[Rhutobello]

If someone in their heart find that their belief is the only right one, then they shall keep that belief...jut because it is right for them.

On the other side, to just avoid to evaluate other ideas, is a stagnation.

Other ideas is thoughts that other people carry, and if they believe in them from their heart, well then that might be the truth for them.

But none of these 2 truths, need to be the ultimate truth, because there might be a lot of different opinions who all carry some of it...just like Religions..and other beliefs system.

So listen to your heart, if you find that everything is fixed, that we can't change anything, well so believe in that, but I am sure we all try to "adjust" a bit, I am sure there are many who have run away from marriages that have been set for them, or who have taken another education, or who have been married their whole life without complications even if it is said they shall divorce...the question is....what happens? Do the world collapse or do it go on?

Another thought for me is...If my life is put into firm lines, what is then my mission here on earth....what is it I shall learn...I thought learning was by searching...to find solutions where there seems to be none....to get everything by looking in the star seems a bit strange for me...and I start wondering what mission I should accomplish?

We are in an ever growing evolution, in some 1000 years time there might not be anything like humans anymore, we are a chemical being, we change our chemical environment, which gives opening for new species, this have happened several times on earth before, I am not sure we are the last one of these changes, but maybe if we start to think, to use our brain, to figure out that if we want to live longer on earth, then we must not put us in the front seat, but Mother Earth!
We must show respect for the nature, we must stop the great increase in people, we exploit to much of earth, and religions are asking for more???

These thoughts is the main thing for us all to start to think for ourselves, to see the problems, to try to fix them, and that can't be done with old dogmas.

[arian_1c]

Thanks everybody for participating in the thread.

Now, discussing Fate and Free Will has always been a no win situation, a Catch 22 so to say.
So, my intention here is not to advocate my beliefs or preach my thoughts, but to analyse various facets of the discussion. I will try to keep it as short as possible but that I believe is going to be tough.

Before I cover the various points, there is something however that I would like to say. This discussion has been on for ages and although I have no proof but I am pretty confident that the discussion has never been won by a particular school of thought, so I would ask you guys to stick with whatever you heart and soul believes in because that is exactly how it is meant to be. At the same time, keep an open mind always, because, a human soul keeps on evolving and there is nothing wrong in changing your beliefs as long as you know they are just beliefs and not the laws of nature. Even the greatest mathematical theorems were derived at by making random suppositions, so the point being, it is not important where you start but whats important is where you want to be. Anyways, back to point now…

The article I mentioned earlier covers beautiful points about the discussion, for those of you who haven't read it and for the sake of discussion, I am posting some points out of that:

There are three basic positions we can adopt on the question of free will: either we have absolute free will, or we have no free will at all, or we have a certain measure of free will.
1. The idea that we are absolutely free is clearly farfetched, for there are certain obvious restrictions on our freedom: we are not free to do anything that we are physically incapable of doing. For example, we cannot change the past, breathe under water, or fly like a bird. In addition to these physical limitations, there are also psychological limitations on our freedom: our mental conditioning and our numerous habits and instincts play a major role in determining our actions. Some people might say that all these constraints are so powerful that we have no control over them whatsoever and have no free will at all. This extreme position is known as fatalism, pre determinism, or "hard" determinism. According to fatalism, we cannot choose to do anything other than what we do choose (us) to do; everything we do is predestined, and our feeling of being free is an illusion. Fatalism is impossible to prove, but it's also impossible to disprove, because a fatalist would say that whatever we do or say to try to disprove fatalism is itself determined by fate!   So, people in favour or again of Fatalism can not be argued with. Its a point of view one must respect whether or not you wanna believe it or not.

2. It is certainly impossible to deny that we sometimes lose control of ourselves and succumb to irresistible urges, and we are sometimes impelled by unconscious motives and desires we don't even know we have. But most of us feel that we do freely choose our own actions at least some of the time, and that at least some of our impulses can be resisted if we really put our minds to it. The view that our actions are determined partly by forces beyond our control and partly by our own free will is sometimes called "soft" determinism.

We have two types of will: a passive or automatic will, associated with our habits and instincts, and an active or free will. Most of our bodily functions -- such as our breathing, the beating of the heart, digestion, and growth -- are normally controlled unconsciously by our autonomic nervous system, in other words by our passive will. Our passive will also plays a major role in determining our actions, especially when we act instinctively, without thinking. Our free will, on the other hand, allows us to carry out deliberate, intentional actions; it is a form of self-conscious self-determination, and carries with it moral responsibility.

Clearly, the choices and decisions we make are greatly influenced by the habitual patterns of thought, feeling, and behavior arising from our past. From the moment we are born, we begin to display certain distinctive character traits, which are then developed or modified in the course of our lives as we react to circumstances and interact with the people around us -- partly passively and instinctually, and partly actively and self-consciously.
But where does our basic character come from? There are three possible answers to this question.
1. Materialists would say that our basic character is determined by the genes we inherit from our parents, and by which of these genes are activated in our bodies. If asked why we have the parents we do have, and what determines which genes are active and which are recessive, they would answer in a single word: chance. But invoking chance explains nothing; it implies in fact that there is no explanation: things just happen to be the way they are. Efforts to reduce the wonders of life and mind to random physico-chemical interactions are grossly inadequate and unsatisfactory.

2. A second possibility is that there is a God, a divine being, who creates a new human soul for each newborn child. If God gives us our character and decides the circumstances of our birth, he would also bear a major responsibility for all the subsequent events of our lives. It would mean that people suffer because it's God's will that they should suffer. A being capable of such cruelty and injustice would surely be a senseless fiend rather than a "god." An extreme version of this position can be found in the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith (3.6.016), which states: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death." Hardly an inspiring doctrine!
3. A third possibility, and the most reasonable, is reincarnation. According to this view, our souls are reborn on earth again and again, and in each life we reap what we have sown in previous lives and sow seeds that we shall harvest in future lives. There is no such thing as chance, but rather a web of cause and effect, or karma, whereby the consequences of all our thoughts and deeds ultimately rebound upon ourselves, either in this life or in a future life. When a soul returns to incarnation, it is drawn by affinity to the parents who can provide it with the body and environment best fitted to the tendencies it already possesses. So rather than inheriting our characteristics from our parents, we actually inherit them through our parents from ourselves -- from our own past.

All the innumerable small choices that we have made, life after life, combine to create a particular karmic current which carries us in a certain direction. This is our destiny, but it is a self-made destiny, created by ourselves, shaped by our desires, and forged by our will. There is no such thing as fate in the sense of our lives being governed by outside forces that we have played no part whatsoever in creating. Every time we think, speak, or act we are generating causes of future happiness or unhappiness for ourselves. Every mean and selfish thought or deed retards our evolution, and every noble thought or unselfish deed advances it. If we indulge every impulse or desire that flits through our minds -- no matter how base -- we are not demonstrating freedom, but slavery.
It can be a useful exercise to stand back, as it were, and observe ourselves and how we react in different situations, and then ask ourselves honestly which part of us was really in control. The grooves of habit run deep and cannot be erased overnight, and modifying our behavior is therefore a gradual process. But it is basically up to us whether we try to control our lower nature and transform it into something higher, or whether we allow ourselves to be controlled by it.

A quote on the same website states thus,
The future then, for each, will come from each present moment. As we use the moment so we shift the future up or down for good or ill; for the future being only a word for the present – not yet come – we have to see to the present more than all. If the present is full of doubt or vacillation, so will be the future, if full of confidence, calmness, hope, courage and intelligence, thus also will be the future. – William Q. Judge

I have highlighted the points that make sense to me, every one is free to judge for him/her self... answer your calling...
I hope this was of use in some  small way to you all

peace
sahil

[mysbcrs]

Sahil ji,

Though your post is meant to be concluding one could not resist the urge to comment on the article that you have quoted.

...but it is a self-made destiny, created by ourselves, shaped by our desires, and forged by our will. There is no such thing as fate in the sense of our lives being governed by outside forces that we have played no part whatsoever in creating.....

Well, may not be so, since our actions affects others (not just human beings) around us. It will be interesting to think over whether the tortoise that was indirectly responsible for the death of Aeschylus has any karmic debt to his soul.

Also, it is interesting to think on what triggers "reactionary karma" or  RK (I could not find any better way of expressing it). Logically it must be some component of the action that encounters the RK. May be the intent or the objects/people affected etc. Theoretically some of the actions may not trigger any RK, in which case the action and the consequences will give us the feel of free will. But it will effectively be absence of fetters rather than presence of freedom.

CRS

[Rhutobello]

As said..there is no hard evidences for one will against the other....use your heart to tell...not that other believe and then you must believe...look around you.....do what you believe show results in your daily life?

If we are controlled, and have no will, then society can neither have any will, then pollution can not be man created, but an planned development to change our air and water quality  so we no longer can exist.

look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6063344.stm

14 days ago, there was a biiiig meeting, including India, who agreed to start working to decrease the pollution from each country ......how can they manage it...when they have no free will to do it?

Look at the food prices....they are increasing.....who has to pay by suffering? ...the poor.....why.....because we make pollution that change the "harmony" of earth.

Look at the weather, it will be more extreme....it will be more and heavier rain....where is our best food production? .....alongside rivers and lowland...where  we get most flooding and destroying of crops....which again will lead to less food.

What will we then get.....Unrest....migration...which lead to food shortens where the people move...which again lead to unrest...which again might lead to epidemics and wars....shall we just sit with our hands in our laps and say  "everything happen as God will"

Well then I will give a picture on it.....go into your car, put blindfold on, and drive for a week.......if God will, then you, and other survive...if not....

Again...this is said in general..and not towards anyone in special...I just burn for it...and it might come out a bit strange.....but in my opinion it is worth a thought from all of us.

[bondbond333]

Well then I will give a picture on it.....go into your car, put blindfold on, and drive for a week.......if God will, then you, and other survive...if not....

well may be the god will has to be there for that person to think that  foolishly in the first place.

Any how Mr. Rhutobello i can understand your anguish.

I think its always better to worry about things that we personally encounter and act accordingly rather than worry about all the things in the world. In worldly matters its always better to act if possible and help others according to our ability.
There would be no time for us to think about will of god and all other stuff when we see a person dying in front of us, we just act according to our instinct.

If we look at the history of the world there is always suffering and when a person realizes his helplessness and constraints in this world he develops vairagya (dispassion) and goes for inner search, example  Gautham Buddha.