Hi everybody,
Seems like Fate thats got us guys discussing the very topic over and over again for quite some time now. I mean we can't just stop discussing it can we, but it just goes on to show how much this topic means to each and every one of us and how a different sense of it prevails within each one of us (sounds like free will to me).
Anyways, Since we've all established its importance by continuous probing of the topic, I am sure you guys won't deny my request when I ask for you guys to have one more go.
It would be great if we could learn more from each other about this very important yet controversial topic.
The way I propose is for each one us to write a post giving his/her views on the topic and none of the rest will be allowed to criticize any of the point made by any other. However, if you like any of the point made by any other or your thoughts are similar to the particular point you can mention it in your post.
Once all the members are done with putting their views forward, we will end the thread without any conclusion, because, we all know there can't be a conclusion to this.
Remember the whole idea here is to add new dimensions to your thought process, so please post generously , explain your thinking as much as you want to and no one shall criticize, again, agreeing with someone is absolutely free of charge.
Just to remind you all, as RishiRahul Ji pointed out, try to relate you ideology to Vedic Philosophy, its not compulsory but since we are in the vedic section it makes sense.
In the end, all I hope is that we all learn something new from this, because, this is the mother of all topics.
regards
sahil
P.S.: Any suggestions on how to do this, most welcome!!!
Lets start again!!!
Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123, RishiRahul
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
Since we shall do it the Vedic way, I might not be in this discussion.....but my Will are so great...or I am bound to not give up...so I will ask some question....no one need to answer...but ponder on it themselves 
In short...If there is no free will, then there shall neither be any frustration.
If God, or the creator have the full responsibility for us, then he would not given us the ability to think, because that would make his task harder, he had to control all those strong minded, who was miserable with what they was given, and who tried to better their life outside "ITS" plan.
If God have a plan,which we can't interfere with, then why are we starting to save the world from pollution, or if pollution was not intended, why did he(she) created it in the first place.
What was his plan with Hitler, Pol Pot, yea you name it.
Why did he create money? If our path is laid, why introduce values ? If no will exist, then there are no need to collect values at all, because we are on our path.
At least around half (or rather more)worlds population don't bother with Astrology and the plan of God, they do as they will....is this also the plan of God, do we need to know his path through Astrology, or will it happen anyway?
If all have its path...do we need Astrology at all? Can they change anything? if so aren't there something like a will in that? Are Astrologer Gods secretary?
IF we have no free will, then we must lay down our legal system, which build on some mistaken fact that WE are responsible for our own action.
God want someone to rape, to kill, to exploit other for own gain...to fight for own freedom...to fight for own power.
I wonder what we shall learn, when we have no way to take our learning into our life, because everything is made.
And when we are at it, then we have to put down every border, every country, everything controlled by humans, because we can't control if we have no will, and God have the full control. You can neither be given a small will...either you have it...or you don't have it.
Another strange thought can be given:
If you see us in comparison to the first life on earth, and put everything into one year. Then the first life occurred 00.001 AM 1 of January and we arrived around 9PM the 31 of December.
Around 99% of all species that have lived was then vanished.
Just look what we have done in our 3 hours on earth....I really hope God has his plan, and that might be that humans must go, because they can't take care of their own nest!
________________
Do you agree that if you saw a thought in a human, then this thought can grow and become real?
Is that possible if everything is ready made?
If you as Astrologer say to a seeker....you are able to be a doctor....if you believe in Astrology..then you might become a doctor...because the thought is given....even if the Native would rather be an accountant,and do a much better job.
If you as Astrologer say...Yes I can see several marriages....will not that make a couple "afraid", and they start to protect themselves from harm, will not some males use the same thought as excuse to end the marriage in name of fate?
When we give Readings, then we saw thoughts, and most of readings are fulfilled through our free will to see it done, we have therefor a responsibility to evaluate what to say, and how we say it...
If you see that a Native will die in a Train crash, shall you then tell it,shall you cross Gods will?, or is it Gods will for you to say it? but if so, why have he put the Native on the train in the first place? If you tell is the Native then able to chose not go on the Train?, if yes...is this His Will?,or is it the Creators Will, not to go on board. Again...why put him at a train in which the native had no will to go on?
Is the will borrowed just for this occasion, and then taken away again? If he/she still can have it...can't (s)he use it when (S)he fancy it?
well...there is many more questions...but I stop....thx...again...no offense intended!
In short...If there is no free will, then there shall neither be any frustration.
If God, or the creator have the full responsibility for us, then he would not given us the ability to think, because that would make his task harder, he had to control all those strong minded, who was miserable with what they was given, and who tried to better their life outside "ITS" plan.
If God have a plan,which we can't interfere with, then why are we starting to save the world from pollution, or if pollution was not intended, why did he(she) created it in the first place.
What was his plan with Hitler, Pol Pot, yea you name it.
Why did he create money? If our path is laid, why introduce values ? If no will exist, then there are no need to collect values at all, because we are on our path.
At least around half (or rather more)worlds population don't bother with Astrology and the plan of God, they do as they will....is this also the plan of God, do we need to know his path through Astrology, or will it happen anyway?
If all have its path...do we need Astrology at all? Can they change anything? if so aren't there something like a will in that? Are Astrologer Gods secretary?
IF we have no free will, then we must lay down our legal system, which build on some mistaken fact that WE are responsible for our own action.
God want someone to rape, to kill, to exploit other for own gain...to fight for own freedom...to fight for own power.
I wonder what we shall learn, when we have no way to take our learning into our life, because everything is made.
And when we are at it, then we have to put down every border, every country, everything controlled by humans, because we can't control if we have no will, and God have the full control. You can neither be given a small will...either you have it...or you don't have it.
Another strange thought can be given:
If you see us in comparison to the first life on earth, and put everything into one year. Then the first life occurred 00.001 AM 1 of January and we arrived around 9PM the 31 of December.
Around 99% of all species that have lived was then vanished.
Just look what we have done in our 3 hours on earth....I really hope God has his plan, and that might be that humans must go, because they can't take care of their own nest!
________________
Do you agree that if you saw a thought in a human, then this thought can grow and become real?
Is that possible if everything is ready made?
If you as Astrologer say to a seeker....you are able to be a doctor....if you believe in Astrology..then you might become a doctor...because the thought is given....even if the Native would rather be an accountant,and do a much better job.
If you as Astrologer say...Yes I can see several marriages....will not that make a couple "afraid", and they start to protect themselves from harm, will not some males use the same thought as excuse to end the marriage in name of fate?
When we give Readings, then we saw thoughts, and most of readings are fulfilled through our free will to see it done, we have therefor a responsibility to evaluate what to say, and how we say it...
If you see that a Native will die in a Train crash, shall you then tell it,shall you cross Gods will?, or is it Gods will for you to say it? but if so, why have he put the Native on the train in the first place? If you tell is the Native then able to chose not go on the Train?, if yes...is this His Will?,or is it the Creators Will, not to go on board. Again...why put him at a train in which the native had no will to go on?
Is the will borrowed just for this occasion, and then taken away again? If he/she still can have it...can't (s)he use it when (S)he fancy it?
well...there is many more questions...but I stop....thx...again...no offense intended!
Last edited by Rhutobello on Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
Thanks for that Rhuto... that is the whole idea of this thread, no one needs to answer anybody elses post, the purpose ain't to convince any1 but to put ur thoughts forward, so as to say your mind and at the same time, its imp that we are open enough to understand wat the other one is trying to say.... this ain't a discussion, its just posting...
thanks again for the start
thanks again for the start
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
Just one more question....no attack on anyone...just ponder:
If everything is made, and no human being have a Free Will, why then create Religions? Why create several major ones? Why create 1000 of minor ones?
If we have no will, how can we then pay honor to our God? In order to do so we must have a will, must we not.
It seems a bit dumb to me that God order me(and many refuse....why the do, if they haven't a will to do so?) in the church to pay honor, when I can't think, or have a Will to give it, because he controls me all the way.
On the other hand, A religion who control their followers by telling that they have no free will, that everything is in the hands of God, will achieve a great power over their followers, if they don't stop up and ask why!
If everything is made, and no human being have a Free Will, why then create Religions? Why create several major ones? Why create 1000 of minor ones?
If we have no will, how can we then pay honor to our God? In order to do so we must have a will, must we not.
It seems a bit dumb to me that God order me(and many refuse....why the do, if they haven't a will to do so?) in the church to pay honor, when I can't think, or have a Will to give it, because he controls me all the way.
On the other hand, A religion who control their followers by telling that they have no free will, that everything is in the hands of God, will achieve a great power over their followers, if they don't stop up and ask why!
Thanks Arian ji.
Good that we have spun off this into a new thread, since it was coming up in many other threads too.
Without meaning to attack other opinions, here is what I have.
I will repeat my e.g, of Ramayan that to me appears to be very serious logical challenge to free will. I am sure people who dont have faith in Ramaayan will find comparable examples elsewhere in real life/literature.
Sri Rama chose to go to Vanavaas and prim facie we can certainly say that this is an exercise of his free will. Sage Gauthama had cursed his wife Ahilya to assume stone form and upon her entreaties agreed for a vimochan. He said that many years down the line Sri Ram would come for Vanavaas and upon his feet touching her stone form she will be released of her curse.
This story clearly indicates that Sri Ram did not indeed have a free will and fate made him decide that way. If an incarnation of Maha Vishnu did not have free will how can we have it?
This does not of-course mean that we have no right or power to decide on anything. We have all of this but the result is certainly not decided by us. Each of our decision is unfortunately based on the result of an action that we have performed based on our earlier decision.
For e.g, I decide to attend an important meeting tomorrow at someplace. But my flight tonight gets cancelled and consequently I decide to participate thru telepresence. Both decisions are mine. The second decision, though made by me is not free.
Also amazingly more than 90% of our actions in our conscious state is not driven by intellect. If we were to drive our car by just intellect without employing our habits, we may not be able to drive even a kilometre for the whole day. It is in those select moments when our intellect gets activated do we really think that we have a free will and take decisions.
If this is so, can we stop taking decisions? Unfortunately limitations of human mind does not allow this luxury. You can never decide not to decide much the same way as you can never remember to forget.
Then how do I explain successful decisions (decisons followed by actions that gave intended results)? They are statistical eventualities.
And finally (certainly not a small matter), whose free will is it anyway? Is it that of mine when I was a boy of 8 or when I was 28 or when I am 50? If I dont have the free will to stick to an identity through these years, does it really matter that I have free will in other sundry matters?
CRS
Good that we have spun off this into a new thread, since it was coming up in many other threads too.
Without meaning to attack other opinions, here is what I have.
I will repeat my e.g, of Ramayan that to me appears to be very serious logical challenge to free will. I am sure people who dont have faith in Ramaayan will find comparable examples elsewhere in real life/literature.
Sri Rama chose to go to Vanavaas and prim facie we can certainly say that this is an exercise of his free will. Sage Gauthama had cursed his wife Ahilya to assume stone form and upon her entreaties agreed for a vimochan. He said that many years down the line Sri Ram would come for Vanavaas and upon his feet touching her stone form she will be released of her curse.
This story clearly indicates that Sri Ram did not indeed have a free will and fate made him decide that way. If an incarnation of Maha Vishnu did not have free will how can we have it?
This does not of-course mean that we have no right or power to decide on anything. We have all of this but the result is certainly not decided by us. Each of our decision is unfortunately based on the result of an action that we have performed based on our earlier decision.
For e.g, I decide to attend an important meeting tomorrow at someplace. But my flight tonight gets cancelled and consequently I decide to participate thru telepresence. Both decisions are mine. The second decision, though made by me is not free.
Also amazingly more than 90% of our actions in our conscious state is not driven by intellect. If we were to drive our car by just intellect without employing our habits, we may not be able to drive even a kilometre for the whole day. It is in those select moments when our intellect gets activated do we really think that we have a free will and take decisions.
If this is so, can we stop taking decisions? Unfortunately limitations of human mind does not allow this luxury. You can never decide not to decide much the same way as you can never remember to forget.
Then how do I explain successful decisions (decisons followed by actions that gave intended results)? They are statistical eventualities.
And finally (certainly not a small matter), whose free will is it anyway? Is it that of mine when I was a boy of 8 or when I was 28 or when I am 50? If I dont have the free will to stick to an identity through these years, does it really matter that I have free will in other sundry matters?
CRS
CRS
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RishiRahul
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RishiRahul=Which religion tells us that we do not have Free Will? Since I am not aware of all Religions, I do not have an answer.Rhutobello wrote:Just one more question....no attack on anyone...just ponder:
If everything is made, and no human being have a Free Will, why then create Religions? Why create several major ones? Why create 1000 of minor ones?
RishiRahul= Let us talk about religion now. Every religion has a GOD, or rather created a GOD.
Many say that all Gods are incarnations of THE ONE GOD. I believe this present sentence very much.
Now why are religions created? To enable the people following that religion follow a way of thinking/living/ moral standard.
Religion is meant to create a moral standard/philosophy for people to go by... so that THEY do not go astray/have a purpose/strength to live for/with; obviously intended for the betterment of society, as we are 'Social....ANIMALS'. And yes... to give us the knowledge as to how we SHOULD think and live Socially, and for SOCIAL BETTERMENT/ BETTER/QUALITY LIVING.
Yes, Religions are created by Free Will. But we are talking of Free Will as per Vedic thought... a different concept.
Maybe no ones answer is perfect/can be perfect as it is a very hard concept to ASSIMILATE/COMPREHEND.
Free Will means the FREEDOM to do as we please...... general thinking. But most of THAT is restricted due to destiny....Vedic astrology thinking... But how much?
If Religions, as you said, were created? What is its connections with Free Will?
The question was yours, not mine.
If we have no will, how can we then pay honor to our God? In order to do so we must have a will, must we not.
RishiRahul= Who said that we do not have Free Will? Yes we have lots of Free will as per General thought.. the colloquial/generally understood meaning.
Regarding your query about God and Free will= Did you know if God existed when/after you were born? NO. Your God was your Parents, or rather your Mother first then. They taught you about God. EVERY THING/EVERY CONCEPTwas taught to you... by parents! teachers! environment! and the like.
You may need to rephrase your above sentence (i.e: If we have no will, how can we then pay honor to our God? In order to do so we must have a will, must we not)........ We are not talking of 'WILL but 'FREE WILL'.
It seems a bit dumb to me that God order me(and many refuse....why the do, if they haven't a will to do so?) in the church to pay honor, when I can't think, or have a Will to give it, because he controls me all the way.
RishiRahul= Free Will, dear Rhuto, not Will.
On the other hand, A religion who control their followers by telling that they have no free will, that everything is in the hands of God, will achieve a great power over their followers, if they don't stop up and ask why!
Hope we are not confusing WILL ... with .......FREE WILL??!!
If we all have a point to point discussion, like the above, wouldnt it be better in terms lucidity and better understanding?
RishiRahul
Last edited by RishiRahul on Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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RishiRahul
- Astrology Reader
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Hi,
I am copy pasting two materials (one from another thread) below as they are thought provoking (not implying that all may be correct or wrong, as anyone can be right or wrong) & that we all can have it in front of our minds for further discussing=
Rhuto ji,
From your posts I perceive (I may be wrong) a fundamental confusion which I believe Rishiji also alluded to. FREE WILL as we are discussing here is to determine whether you are really free to will whatever you are willing.
To explain based on your eg. Assuming that I ask myself the question and stay in bed for 10 more minutes, I am still not sure that fate is not having the last laugh saying "See how I brought these two guys togethar in mystic board, made one to challenge the other and ensured that on day x he got up late by 10 minutes".
But, while we may not have a free will we still cant avoid willing. We are constrained to make decisions all the time.It is like you can forget to remember but not rememeber to forget ! It is during extreme circumstances that we find ourselves unable to decide and start attributing our limitations to fate.
Sahilji,
My post relating to karma was more to discuss rather than propound something. I have no doubts that I have no locus standi to propound anything.
Nevertheless I wanted to highlight the futility of using karma in astrology except perhaps by divyagnani like sage Gauthama. Karma as a philosophical concept is something that people have been using for ages.
As Rhutoji pointed out the fault may lie in the tendency to use astrology for micro details. Probably this was menat to be used to determine high level results. For e.g, does A who has 5 Billon dollars in bank account is happier than B with say 1 billion. Perhaps astrology will tell us wehther each of them is happy with whatever they have. The problem arises when we try to use astrology to say who is happier.
If hypothetically B wee to approach me as an astrologer saying "I have exactly the same natal chart as A. But he has 5 billion while I have just 1 billion, I will tell him that he should focus on his own happiness rather than cite karma as a plausible explanation.
CRS
Thanks Arian ji.
Good that we have spun off this into a new thread, since it was coming up in many other threads too.
Without meaning to attack other opinions, here is what I have.
I will repeat my e.g, of Ramayan that to me appears to be very serious logical challenge to free will. I am sure people who dont have faith in Ramaayan will find comparable examples elsewhere in real life/literature.
Sri Rama chose to go to Vanavaas and prim facie we can certainly say that this is an exercise of his free will. Sage Gauthama had cursed his wife Ahilya to assume stone form and upon her entreaties agreed for a vimochan. He said that many years down the line Sri Ram would come for Vanavaas and upon his feet touching her stone form she will be released of her curse.
This story clearly indicates that Sri Ram did not indeed have a free will and fate made him decide that way. If an incarnation of Maha Vishnu did not have free will how can we have it?
This does not of-course mean that we have no right or power to decide on anything. We have all of this but the result is certainly not decided by us. Each of our decision is unfortunately based on the result of an action that we have performed based on our earlier decision.
For e.g, I decide to attend an important meeting tomorrow at someplace. But my flight tonight gets cancelled and consequently I decide to participate thru telepresence. Both decisions are mine. The second decision, though made by me is not free.
Also amazingly more than 90% of our actions in our conscious state is not driven by intellect. If we were to drive our car by just intellect without employing our habits, we may not be able to drive even a kilometre for the whole day. It is in those select moments when our intellect gets activated do we really think that we have a free will and take decisions.
If this is so, can we stop taking decisions? Unfortunately limitations of human mind does not allow this luxury. You can never decide not to decide much the same way as you can never remember to forget.
Then how do I explain successful decisions (decisons followed by actions that gave intended results)? They are statistical eventualities.
And finally (certainly not a small matter), whose free will is it anyway? Is it that of mine when I was a boy of 8 or when I was 28 or when I am 50? If I dont have the free will to stick to an identity through these years, does it really matter that I have free will in other sundry matters?
CRS
I am copy pasting two materials (one from another thread) below as they are thought provoking (not implying that all may be correct or wrong, as anyone can be right or wrong) & that we all can have it in front of our minds for further discussing=
Rhuto ji,
From your posts I perceive (I may be wrong) a fundamental confusion which I believe Rishiji also alluded to. FREE WILL as we are discussing here is to determine whether you are really free to will whatever you are willing.
To explain based on your eg. Assuming that I ask myself the question and stay in bed for 10 more minutes, I am still not sure that fate is not having the last laugh saying "See how I brought these two guys togethar in mystic board, made one to challenge the other and ensured that on day x he got up late by 10 minutes".
But, while we may not have a free will we still cant avoid willing. We are constrained to make decisions all the time.It is like you can forget to remember but not rememeber to forget ! It is during extreme circumstances that we find ourselves unable to decide and start attributing our limitations to fate.
Sahilji,
My post relating to karma was more to discuss rather than propound something. I have no doubts that I have no locus standi to propound anything.
Nevertheless I wanted to highlight the futility of using karma in astrology except perhaps by divyagnani like sage Gauthama. Karma as a philosophical concept is something that people have been using for ages.
As Rhutoji pointed out the fault may lie in the tendency to use astrology for micro details. Probably this was menat to be used to determine high level results. For e.g, does A who has 5 Billon dollars in bank account is happier than B with say 1 billion. Perhaps astrology will tell us wehther each of them is happy with whatever they have. The problem arises when we try to use astrology to say who is happier.
If hypothetically B wee to approach me as an astrologer saying "I have exactly the same natal chart as A. But he has 5 billion while I have just 1 billion, I will tell him that he should focus on his own happiness rather than cite karma as a plausible explanation.
CRS
Thanks Arian ji.
Good that we have spun off this into a new thread, since it was coming up in many other threads too.
Without meaning to attack other opinions, here is what I have.
I will repeat my e.g, of Ramayan that to me appears to be very serious logical challenge to free will. I am sure people who dont have faith in Ramaayan will find comparable examples elsewhere in real life/literature.
Sri Rama chose to go to Vanavaas and prim facie we can certainly say that this is an exercise of his free will. Sage Gauthama had cursed his wife Ahilya to assume stone form and upon her entreaties agreed for a vimochan. He said that many years down the line Sri Ram would come for Vanavaas and upon his feet touching her stone form she will be released of her curse.
This story clearly indicates that Sri Ram did not indeed have a free will and fate made him decide that way. If an incarnation of Maha Vishnu did not have free will how can we have it?
This does not of-course mean that we have no right or power to decide on anything. We have all of this but the result is certainly not decided by us. Each of our decision is unfortunately based on the result of an action that we have performed based on our earlier decision.
For e.g, I decide to attend an important meeting tomorrow at someplace. But my flight tonight gets cancelled and consequently I decide to participate thru telepresence. Both decisions are mine. The second decision, though made by me is not free.
Also amazingly more than 90% of our actions in our conscious state is not driven by intellect. If we were to drive our car by just intellect without employing our habits, we may not be able to drive even a kilometre for the whole day. It is in those select moments when our intellect gets activated do we really think that we have a free will and take decisions.
If this is so, can we stop taking decisions? Unfortunately limitations of human mind does not allow this luxury. You can never decide not to decide much the same way as you can never remember to forget.
Then how do I explain successful decisions (decisons followed by actions that gave intended results)? They are statistical eventualities.
And finally (certainly not a small matter), whose free will is it anyway? Is it that of mine when I was a boy of 8 or when I was 28 or when I am 50? If I dont have the free will to stick to an identity through these years, does it really matter that I have free will in other sundry matters?
CRS
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
Since it was a question about confusion, Will and Free will, then so might be....and as I stated in my first post that I was not eligible for Vedic but was talking...and only talk about what I put into the word Free will.
It is not equal to do what one want.
It is not equal to always achieve what one want.
The main thing with Free will, is then that you always have a choice.
If you have a choice, then you can try to better your situation.
If you have a choice, then you can be responsible for your action.
If you have a choice, then you can become a doctor even if others say you can't, it will mostly depend on your will to see it through,and your abilities, and not how the star was placed when you was born.
If you have a choice, then the world become hard to micro control, but there is always opening for bigger events,
If Astrology really shall count as micro control,and as fact, then it must hit on first try in more then 90% of the cases, if not, then it hurt a lot of people.
My whole idea behind my participation, is to get one or more persons to understand that they aren't doomed because they struggle, that they have a choice to start fighting, that they by evaluate their situation locally, might find better solutions, then to go to a Reading, where only the Native become investigated, and one don't know if maybe one art of trade have a lot of people, when another trade has much less, and will give an opening for employment, if you are willing to put your effort into it.
What I cry for is the personal initiative, and the personal initiative is depending on your free will....the Will to not give up, and from the Readings I have seen in Vedic, I seldom see this pointed out, but some do!
It is not equal to do what one want.
It is not equal to always achieve what one want.
The main thing with Free will, is then that you always have a choice.
If you have a choice, then you can try to better your situation.
If you have a choice, then you can be responsible for your action.
If you have a choice, then you can become a doctor even if others say you can't, it will mostly depend on your will to see it through,and your abilities, and not how the star was placed when you was born.
If you have a choice, then the world become hard to micro control, but there is always opening for bigger events,
If Astrology really shall count as micro control,and as fact, then it must hit on first try in more then 90% of the cases, if not, then it hurt a lot of people.
My whole idea behind my participation, is to get one or more persons to understand that they aren't doomed because they struggle, that they have a choice to start fighting, that they by evaluate their situation locally, might find better solutions, then to go to a Reading, where only the Native become investigated, and one don't know if maybe one art of trade have a lot of people, when another trade has much less, and will give an opening for employment, if you are willing to put your effort into it.
What I cry for is the personal initiative, and the personal initiative is depending on your free will....the Will to not give up, and from the Readings I have seen in Vedic, I seldom see this pointed out, but some do!
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bondbond333
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 1:05 am
Well i am simply going to quote what Ramesh Balasekar has to say abt free will from advaita.org. This could clear some doubts for all of us and create new questions may be.
Gs
Regards,Nobody likes being told that he has no free will. And yet look at the state of the world at the present time. The world is on the brink of disaster, where it has been for many years now with one crisis after another. The question - the big question - therefore remains: The human being certainly has tremendous intelligence (to send a man to the moon); he is also supposed to have free will - then why has the human being been unable to combine his intelligence and his free will to make the world a better place?!
There is also another aspect. There are so many intelligent people, leaders in their respective fields, who are very much interested in knowing their future. If they really believed in their own free will, why would they be so interested in astrology and similar phenomena?!
If you think along these lines, the only reasonable conclusion you will arrive at is that the human being has been acting in this fashion because he has no control over his thoughts and emotions. What he considers as his actions are in fact only reactions of the individual organism to an outside impulse: a thought which occurs, an event that he sees or perhaps what he happens to hear. Each organism reacts according to the natural characteristics with which it has been programmed: physical, mental, intellectual, temperamental.
Another difficulty about truly accepting this teaching is the argument that it leads to a 'fatalistic' attitude. The fatalistic argument translates itself into the question: 'If I am not to be motivated by the fruits of my action, and, indeed, if I have no free will over my actions, why should I work at all?' The answer is astonishingly simple: you will not be able to be inactive for any length of time because the energy within the organism will compel you to act: to act according to the natural characteristics of the organism. In other words, whether to act or not is itself not in your control.
The essence of the ultimate understanding is the ineluctable fact that the individual human being, as such, does not - cannot - have any volition. He is without any independence of choice of decision and action, for the simple reason that the human being is not an autonomous entity. The human being is merely an infinitesimal part the totality of manifestation. That the human being can see, hear, etc, through his senses is merely because he has, like any other sentient being (insect or animal), been endowed with sentience. That he can think is merely because he has, in addition, been endowed with intellect In the absence of consciousness, there is no sentience, no intellect, and as far as the human being is concerned, no manifest world.
Knowing that he cannot live according to his will or volition, that he is in fact 'being lived' (as an instrument of the Totality), he also knows the futility of 'intentions'. By abstaining from volition the man of wisdom is free of anxiety and misery, because then he transcends conceptualization which is the basis of volition and intention. Knowing that he is being lived, the man of wisdom transcends both volitional action and its counterpart, volitional non-action: volitional non-doing is also doing. It is for this reason that the man of wisdom goes about his business in the ordinary way without any intentions, without any lime of doership.
It is only the 'me'-concept that can have intentions because 'will' and 'ego' are synonymous terms. Thus the absence of volition in the case of the man of wisdom does not mean phenomenal inaction but the absence of volitional action (positive or negative). The absence of volitional phenomenal action can only mean the presence of noumenal action. In other words, the non-volitional action of the man of wisdom (whether perceptive, conceptive, or somatic) is noumenal action, the non-action of the sage (because the 'me' and his intention are totally absent).
Gs
Thanks for that Gs ji...
That certainly explains your point of view.
I would like for you and the rest to have a read at the following article:
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/karma/ka-prat.htm
Its got a lot of discussion material
The article discusses the various point of views people tend to follow... it gives example wherein every view has been supported by examples and the reader can definitely read into what he wants to believe in... i would later use the same article and maybe some other data to compose a post of my own....
Thanks everyone
sahil
That certainly explains your point of view.
I would like for you and the rest to have a read at the following article:
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/karma/ka-prat.htm
Its got a lot of discussion material
The article discusses the various point of views people tend to follow... it gives example wherein every view has been supported by examples and the reader can definitely read into what he wants to believe in... i would later use the same article and maybe some other data to compose a post of my own....
Thanks everyone
sahil
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RishiRahul
- Astrology Reader
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Hi,
Well!! some brilliant postings this day!
I guess when We all ( not only people of this Mysticboard) are trying to talk of 'Free Will'..... We are/have been actually talking of 'WILL'....... or We have been talking in regard to the general meaning of Free Will (not Vedic).
Please do not get confused:= 'Free Will' is that part of 'Will' which is not bound/restricted by Fate/Destiny. The 'Will' which is 'Free' from destiny's restriction. Or The 'Will' which is not bound by fate.
You guys may please discuss/counter this over the next 2 days, after which I will post the next part= its explanation.
RishiRahul
Well!! some brilliant postings this day!
I guess when We all ( not only people of this Mysticboard) are trying to talk of 'Free Will'..... We are/have been actually talking of 'WILL'....... or We have been talking in regard to the general meaning of Free Will (not Vedic).
Please do not get confused:= 'Free Will' is that part of 'Will' which is not bound/restricted by Fate/Destiny. The 'Will' which is 'Free' from destiny's restriction. Or The 'Will' which is not bound by fate.
You guys may please discuss/counter this over the next 2 days, after which I will post the next part= its explanation.
RishiRahul
Last edited by RishiRahul on Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The desire to do something is wish.
The wish transfers itself to will Causing to say that "I will do We will do". But the word will in this sentence is different from the word word will in Free Will".
This will belongs to the mind and that Will belongs to the Soul.
babulupmg
The wish transfers itself to will Causing to say that "I will do We will do". But the word will in this sentence is different from the word word will in Free Will".
This will belongs to the mind and that Will belongs to the Soul.
babulupmg
kvdpmkmarijani8amritha
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Rhutobello
- Posts: 10724
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm
Just as a curiosity....there is no proof for one way or another.....but one way promote that fate shall give you everything...that if you wait until the star is in right position then everything will improve...they tell what you shall educate for...when to marry..if you get divorces...how many children..the other say...take responsibility for your own life...try to better it by fighting today..to look for possibilities where you live....to show personal initiative, to make the best out of your life ,and not let other control it!
I am fully aware that none of us can put forward proof, but I am sure what option I will chose, because if I choose my way, then I will get yours for free, since everything is foretold,(and can't be changing whatever we do), BUT if we are able to change something ourselves, then those who try will win in the long run
Beliefs are man made, and I haven't met one yet, including me, who are perfect, we need all to change...and even beliefs change in small ways each day.
BTW desire has nothing to do with free will...it is on greed...one of our big downfalls, the struggle for money, for power for own gain...you use your will to obtain it....but it is your greed that takes control of your will, but this you see everywhere...just look out for big mansions, big cars, big boats....it is our way to be a peacock :)
I am fully aware that none of us can put forward proof, but I am sure what option I will chose, because if I choose my way, then I will get yours for free, since everything is foretold,(and can't be changing whatever we do), BUT if we are able to change something ourselves, then those who try will win in the long run
Beliefs are man made, and I haven't met one yet, including me, who are perfect, we need all to change...and even beliefs change in small ways each day.
BTW desire has nothing to do with free will...it is on greed...one of our big downfalls, the struggle for money, for power for own gain...you use your will to obtain it....but it is your greed that takes control of your will, but this you see everywhere...just look out for big mansions, big cars, big boats....it is our way to be a peacock :)
Last edited by Rhutobello on Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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