12th House Vedic Astrology

vijiyan · Post by **vijiyan** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:05 am

Hi , I have been told by a Senior Most astrologer that i have a strong 12th house in my chart. I want to know what are the benefits of 12th house?

Can some one clarify my doubt. :)

Libreo · Post by **Libreo** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:17 pm

Well the 12th house is associated with three main areas- 1. imagination and arts. 2. pain, disruption, hospitals, prisons. 3. the psychic realm, mysteries, things that are hidden. It really depends on what planets you're referring to. A strong 12th house could indicate a person that is quite dreamy and imaginative, with a strong intuition (either potential or already intact abilities) and maybe someone that is quite introverted and/or often "down in the dumps" meaning they can be quite depressed a lot. My mum has a strong stellium in the 12th also, she is quite a depressed person from time to time, but she's very intuitive. Seriously, you can't lie to her, you'll never get away with it :D she's also very dreamy and imaginative. I've also came across someone with a strong 12th house that didn't have the negative side effects of the 12th (pessimism) but they were an amazing artist and they were very imaginative. His dream was to be a fiction writer and an illustrator/cartoonist.

vijiyan · Post by **vijiyan** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:30 pm

Thank You Libreo  :) . I have Jupiter+mercury+Venus in 12th house.

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:28 am

Libreo wrote:Well the 12th house is associated with three main areas- 1. imagination and arts. 2. pain, disruption, hospitals, prisons. 3. the psychic realm, mysteries, things that are hidden. It really depends on what planets you're referring to. A strong 12th house could indicate a person that is quite dreamy and imaginative, with a strong intuition (either potential or already intact abilities) and maybe someone that is quite introverted and/or often "down in the dumps" meaning they can be quite depressed a lot. My mum has a strong stellium in the 12th also, she is quite a depressed person from time to time, but she's very intuitive. Seriously, you can't lie to her, you'll never get away with it :D she's also very dreamy and imaginative. I've also came across someone with a strong 12th house that didn't have the negative side effects of the 12th (pessimism) but they were an amazing artist and they were very imaginative. His dream was to be a fiction writer and an illustrator/cartoonist.

Dear Libreo,

Very nicely put, and ESPECIALLY SO if you indeed are only 18 years old, depending on what birthdate you put in when you joined, and which we would wish you a "Happy Birthday" in future...!

6-8-12 are very interesting houses in a horoscope (Indian perspective, but purrhaps other ones too). They are grouped as trikas and interestingly are situated in the place of "accumulated wealth" for the first, 12th from the next and 12th from the third trikona which is also a Kendra and such a significant consideration: FIRST!

But EACH of those Trikas is placed in the 12th (loss) from important kendras!

6th is 12th from 7th
12th is in 12th from Lagna (also a trikona!)
8th though is interesting -- is it not?

Is it loss or accumulated wealth -- and I do not mean wealth in the worldly sense...!

What is the accumulated WEALTH that we 'walk away out of any lifetime with'? Surely, the maraka bhavas must contain a 'hint' to that...?

{this may qualify for a "lock-out" or a move to the discussion forum...! Whatever works for the moment...!}

Love & Light,

vijiyan · Post by **vijiyan** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:06 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Libreo wrote:Well the 12th house is associated with three main areas- 1. imagination and arts. 2. pain, disruption, hospitals, prisons. 3. the psychic realm, mysteries, things that are hidden. It really depends on what planets you're referring to. A strong 12th house could indicate a person that is quite dreamy and imaginative, with a strong intuition (either potential or already intact abilities) and maybe someone that is quite introverted and/or often "down in the dumps" meaning they can be quite depressed a lot. My mum has a strong stellium in the 12th also, she is quite a depressed person from time to time, but she's very intuitive. Seriously, you can't lie to her, you'll never get away with it :D she's also very dreamy and imaginative. I've also came across someone with a strong 12th house that didn't have the negative side effects of the 12th (pessimism) but they were an amazing artist and they were very imaginative. His dream was to be a fiction writer and an illustrator/cartoonist.

Dear Libreo,

Very nicely put, and ESPECIALLY SO if you indeed are only 18 years old, depending on what birthdate you put in when you joined, and which we would wish you a "Happy Birthday" in future...!

6-8-12 are very interesting houses in a horoscope (Indian perspective, but purrhaps other ones too). They are grouped as trikas and interestingly are situated in the place of "accumulated wealth" for the first, 12th from the next and 12th from the third trikona which is also a Kendra and such a significant consideration: FIRST!

But EACH of those Trikas is placed in the 12th (loss) from important kendras!

6th is 12th from 7th
12th is in 12th from Lagna (also a trikona!)
8th though is interesting -- is it not?

Is it loss or accumulated wealth -- and I do not mean wealth in the worldly sense...!

What is the accumulated WEALTH that we 'walk away out of any lifetime with'? Surely, the maraka bhavas must contain a 'hint' to that...?

{this may qualify for a "lock-out" or a move to the discussion forum...! Whatever works for the moment...!}

Love & Light,

Rohini ji, if the 12th house is strong, will there be any material benefits??

RishiRahul · Post by **RishiRahul** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:24 pm

In tersting! Moved to vedic astrology forum,

site moderator

RishiRahul · Post by **RishiRahul** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:26 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Libreo wrote:Well the 12th house is associated with three main areas- 1. imagination and arts. 2. pain, disruption, hospitals, prisons. 3. the psychic realm, mysteries, things that are hidden. It really depends on what planets you're referring to. A strong 12th house could indicate a person that is quite dreamy and imaginative, with a strong intuition (either potential or already intact abilities) and maybe someone that is quite introverted and/or often "down in the dumps" meaning they can be quite depressed a lot. My mum has a strong stellium in the 12th also, she is quite a depressed person from time to time, but she's very intuitive. Seriously, you can't lie to her, you'll never get away with it :D she's also very dreamy and imaginative. I've also came across someone with a strong 12th house that didn't have the negative side effects of the 12th (pessimism) but they were an amazing artist and they were very imaginative. His dream was to be a fiction writer and an illustrator/cartoonist.

Dear Libreo,

Very nicely put, and ESPECIALLY SO if you indeed are only 18 years old, depending on what birthdate you put in when you joined, and which we would wish you a "Happy Birthday" in future...!

6-8-12 are very interesting houses in a horoscope (Indian perspective, but purrhaps other ones too). They are grouped as trikas and interestingly are situated in the place of "accumulated wealth" for the first, 12th from the next and 12th from the third trikona which is also a Kendra and such a significant consideration: FIRST!

But EACH of those Trikas is placed in the 12th (loss) from important kendras!

6th is 12th from 7th
12th is in 12th from Lagna (also a trikona!)
8th though is interesting -- is it not?

Is it loss or accumulated wealth -- and I do not mean wealth in the worldly sense...!

What is the accumulated WEALTH that we 'walk away out of any lifetime with'? Surely, the maraka bhavas must contain a 'hint' to that...?

{this may qualify for a "lock-out" or a move to the discussion forum...! Whatever works for the moment...!}

Love & Light,

I would say, accumulated wealth in terms of 'dreams/fantasies persistent in life.

Also a sign of material expenditures.

Vinay Jha · Post by **Vinay Jha** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:54 pm

Lagna is rising point of the zodiac on Eastern horizon.

Therefore, lagna signifies coming into this physical world.

12th house is loss for lagna, ie loss for the means which sustain our physical existence in this world. This loss is generally monetary and other assets which help us to live. But this loss may be of permanent nature too : permanent loss of bonds with this world. Hence, 12th house is the house of salvation too.

9th house is the house of Dharma. Many persons now-a-days confuse Dharma with spirituality. But spirituality is a vague term which mixes many different strands. In Vedic thought, Dharma is a technical term which signifies the force that sustains our life as well as the entire society and the whole world. Special Vedic rituals or karmakaandas make up and strengthen Dharma. But ethical rules like truth, patience, tolerance, etc are essential for these rituals to be menaingful. Dharma and Moksha are different purushaarthas. Hence the field of 12th house is quite different from that of 9th house.

Good karmas (10th house) are dhana-bhaava for Dharma (9th house), i.e., good karmas increase one's Dharmas. But 9th house is 12th for 10th, which means when 9th house is strong the bonds of karma wither away and the road to salvation opens up. When the urge for moksha gets strong, the need for Dharma vanishes, because Dharma is for well being in this world as well as in Heaven. But salvation is permanent emancipation from this physical world or from heaven or Hell. Therefore, permanent loss of Dharma accompanies the secret knowledge symbolized by 8th house which opens the locks of moksha.

Some persons confuse 9th house with real fortune or happiness, but the house of real happiness is 4th ; and this house is related to the urge of understanding the meanings of things and relations which hive us false sense of happiness. 4th house leads up to real happiness which is not in this world but in emancipation from this world.

Thus, 4th, 8th and 12th houses make up the Moksha Trikona.

1, 5, 9 = Dharma Trikona.

2, 6, 10 = Artha / Dhana Trikona.

3, 7, 11 = Kaama Trikons.

4, 8, 12 = Moksha Trikona.

These points will be more clear if we try to understand them with reference to relevant divisional charts in actual case studies.

-Vinay Jha

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:08 am

Dharma is often superficially associated with religion-religiosity-spirituality, but perhaps represents Moral Duty = Right and Righteous Deeds.

Dasham is the house of Energy (power-meter on your laptops). If strong energy is rightly channeled into and expended in righteous duties, it represents proper and desirable discharge of one's quota of energy/power. The outcome is positive. When energy is misspent or on wrong and immoral deeds, then it brings misery.

Why energy? When is Sun the brightest and hottest (fully discharging its energy?)

Different strokes!

Vinay Jha · Post by **Vinay Jha** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:20 am

Translation of ancient concepts into modern terms distorts the original meanings in most cases. It took me two decades of research in comparative linguistics to understand this fact. Hence, now I prefer to be as true to original sense of terms as possible.

It is true that "Righteous Deed" is the exact translation of "Vedic Karmakaanda"  as far as the original sense of rishis is concerned. But I am sure it is not what you wanted to stress (although you write so ambiguously that you can flexibly change your sense at will).

Vedic Karmakaanda has been distorted by pandits and ridiculed by secularists to such an extent that it is very difficult to convey the original sense to modern sensibility. Hence, you may be right in your approach.

But my aim is not to translate terms used by rishis for modern man. Modern man has to either try to understand the original meanings of rishis, or forget them.

Terms like  "Righteous Deed", "energy", etc,  can be flexibly twisted to imply whatever we deem fit, in the same manner in which "Vedic Karmakaanda" has been twisted to imply  "a profession for providing livlihood to good-for-nothing pandits who fail to compete in any modern discipline". Those pandits who get a well paid job send their children to modern convents, away from panditry.

For understanding the classics of Jyotisha, it is indespensable to understand the original sense of key concepts as used by rishis.

-vj

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:50 am

Not being a linguist or sanskritologist or astro-paleologist etc -- I do take your postings and sharings seriously on those topics and perspectives.

However, the fact of the matter, as I see it is: The original authors of scriptures do not walk amongst us, although a few may continue to claim that they have a direct line-tap with those lofty beings. I respect their belief unlike most others who would (and often do) question their cognitive state of mind etc -- the black and white kinds...!

That said, the fact remains that what we think and believe as being the original intent and mind-set of Ancient Observers and Recorders, and their times and societies and daily routine and life, and I mean not just the Rishis, Munis and Divine Rajas and incarnate Deities etc -- but the common man and woman (say someone like Shabri...?) and how they lived, what they did, what they ate, how they planned their future and such simple mundane things which SURELY existed back then too, just as they do today and the spectrum we see in society today, might have been narrower (presumption...?) but I would find it very hard to believe that it did not exist even back then...!

I mean let us say we all decimated today and experienced what dinosaurs faced, but by some miracle some of the current literature remained maybe as books, as DVDs or perhaps some time-capsules survived planted here and there!

Say a few thousands or tens of thousands or longer years later someone found them and could figure out what got written today, or some of it, and that all too over a few decades or hundreds of years, would they be able to figure out precisely what we and our diverse societies are going through, in different countries, continents, cities, villages and homes...?

If I were to hazard a guess, those 'finders' will have at best a very patchy picture of how we are! Would that be so hard to swallow and believe?

I respectfully submit that the few time-capsules that we have found are but giving us glimpses of REALITY as it TRULY was and is subject to subjective interpretations by the scholars and experts today! Not necessarily definitive or complete, though some may disagree and dig their heels on that!

Love, Light, Caution!

hanuman3233 · Post by **hanuman3233** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:05 am

I want to talk about concrete and tangible things of Jyotisha in a forum of Jyotisha, you are driving the topic towards the bounds of philosophy or semi-poetry perhaps.

It is very simple to get the original sense of sages as far as Jyotisha is concerned, and only a layman's knowledge of devanagari script is needed without any expertize of Sanskrit or paleo things.

I am providing an instance. Almost every Vedic astrologer uses birth time D1 chart for deriving dasha-phala of Vimshottari. Commentators of BPHS also write the same nonsense explicitly. But try to find a single reference to such a thing in any verse of BPHS in any version. I regard Pt Devachandra Jha's edition of Chowkhamba as the best as far as Sanskrit original is concerned, but even his Hindi commentary contains his own habit instead of what the rishi said, and the difference of opinion is deliberately introduced DISHONESTLY, on the basis of a blind faith of popular practice and utter neglect of the Sanskrit original. In the beginning of Dashaphala chapter, the sage asks us to make Dasha Onset Chart and analyze it for good or bad prospects, and then proceeds to describe dashaphala of individual planets. Commentators insert that birthtime charts should be used for judging dashaphala : this view has no reference in the original Sanskrit. Santhanam does not insert this nonsense here. The next chapter on Bhaavesha-dashaphala chapter, the sage again asks us to get dashaphala out of dashaarambha chart, and the commentator Pt Devachandra Jha inserts that phala should be judged on the basis of both the birthchart as well as the dashaarambha chart. R  Santhanam inserts the same rubbish here. Look at the verse-8 in chapter 48 of Santhanam's BPHS or chapter 49 of Devachandra Jha  and try to break the sandhi. There is no reference to birth chart in any verse of entire BPHS while discussing dashaa-phala. Even in the discussion of Sudarshana chakra dashaa, the sage talks about dashaarambha chaert and never about birth chart for judging the dashaa-phala.

The problem with commentarors and their blind followers is that Dasha Onset Charts for Vimjshottari require a very high degree of precision in birth time. Error of even one second will distort the D1 of Dashaa Onset Chart, leave aside higher divisionals. Hence, no one cares for Dasha Onset Chart. Sage Parashara knew that "the mandabuddhi sinners of Kaliyuga"  will make pickle of his standard method of hora, hence he introduced AV plus SC in second part, which implies that SC dasha should include transits with the help of AV (this is exactly what the compilers of nadi/samhitaa texts did), otherwise the phala of SC dashaa will exactly repeat after each 12 years. But how many Vedic Astrologers use this technique, even incorrectly??

It is easy to digress and philosophize, but very very difficult to make dashaa onset chart and try to be honest to what the sage saidf.

Vinay Jha

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:45 am

hanuman3233 wrote:I want to talk about concrete and tangible things of Jyotisha in a forum of Jyotisha, you are driving the topic towards the bounds of philosophy or semi-poetry perhaps.

It is very simple to get the original sense of sages as far as Jyotisha is concerned, and only a layman's knowledge of devanagari script is needed without any expertize of Sanskrit or paleo things.

I am providing an instance. Almost every Vedic astrologer uses birth time D1 chart for deriving dasha-phala of Vimshottari. Commentators of BPHS also write the same nonsense explicitly. But try to find a single reference to such a thing in any verse of BPHS in any version. I regard Pt Devachandra Jha's edition of Chowkhamba as the best as far as Sanskrit original is concerned, but even his Hindi commentary contains his own habit instead of what the rishi said, and the difference of opinion is deliberately introduced DISHONESTLY, on the basis of a blind faith of popular practice and utter neglect of the Sanskrit original. In the beginning of Dashaphala chapter, the sage asks us to make Dasha Onset Chart and analyze it for good or bad prospects, and then proceeds to describe dashaphala of individual planets. Commentators insert that birthtime charts should be used for judging dashaphala : this view has no reference in the original Sanskrit. Santhanam does not insert this nonsense here. The next chapter on Bhaavesha-dashaphala chapter, the sage again asks us to get dashaphala out of dashaarambha chart, and the commentator Pt Devachandra Jha inserts that phala should be judged on the basis of both the birthchart as well as the dashaarambha chart. R Santhanam inserts the same rubbish here. Look at the verse-8 in chapter 48 of Santhanam's BPHS or chapter 49 of Devachandra Jha and try to break the sandhi. There is no reference to birth chart in any verse of entire BPHS while discussing dashaa-phala. Even in the discussion of Sudarshana chakra dashaa, the sage talks about dashaarambha chaert and never about birth chart for judging the dashaa-phala.

The problem with commentarors and their blind followers is that Dasha Onset Charts for Vimjshottari require a very high degree of precision in birth time. Error of even one second will distort the D1 of Dashaa Onset Chart, leave aside higher divisionals. Hence, no one cares for Dasha Onset Chart. Sage Parashara knew that "the mandabuddhi sinners of Kaliyuga" will make pickle of his standard method of hora, hence he introduced AV plus SC in second part, which implies that SC dasha should include transits with the help of AV (this is exactly what the compilers of nadi/samhitaa texts did), otherwise the phala of SC dashaa will exactly repeat after each 12 years. But how many Vedic Astrologers use this technique, even incorrectly??

It is easy to digress and philosophize, but very very difficult to make dashaa onset chart and try to be honest to what the sage saidf.

Vinay Jha

Perception is reality, someone said! And that was neither a product of imagination nor poetry!

When we begin to second guess what very ancient 'names' representing one or more persons were thinking or musing, or meant, the mundane and concrete reveals the hidden poetry <LOL>

RishiRahul · Post by **RishiRahul** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:08 am

Vinay Jha wrote:Lagna is rising point of the zodiac on Eastern horizon.

Therefore, lagna signifies coming into this physical world.

12th house is loss for lagna, ie loss for the means which sustain our physical existence in this world. This loss is generally monetary and other assets which help us to live. But this loss may be of permanent nature too : permanent loss of bonds with this world. Hence, 12th house is the house of salvation too.
Rishi= Agreed, and well explained!

9th house is the house of Dharma. Many persons now-a-days confuse Dharma with spirituality. But spirituality is a vague term which mixes many different strands. In Vedic thought, Dharma is a technical term which signifies the force that sustains our life as well as the entire society and the whole world. Special Vedic rituals or karmakaandas make up and strengthen Dharma. But ethical rules like truth, patience, tolerance, etc are essential for these rituals to be menaingful. Dharma and Moksha are different purushaarthas. Hence the field of 12th house is quite different from that of 9th house.
Rishi=I would say spirituality & Dharma are quite connected; the meaning of 'Dharma' is ...'Virtue, righteousness, and duty, esp. social and caste duty in accord with the cosmic order'.
The meaning of 'Spirituality' doesnt fit into such a clear definition as Dharma would.
Spirituality, I would say is a 'state of mind'.

Good karmas (10th house) are dhana-bhaava for Dharma (9th house), i.e., good karmas increase one's Dharmas. But 9th house is 12th for 10th, which means when 9th house is strong the bonds of karma wither away and the road to salvation opens up. When the urge for moksha gets strong, the need for Dharma vanishes, because Dharma is for well being in this world as well as in Heaven. But salvation is permanent emancipation from this physical world or from heaven or Hell. Therefore, permanent loss of Dharma accompanies the secret knowledge symbolized by 8th house which opens the locks of moksha.
Rishi=Just wondering.
If good karma's are dhana bhava for Dharma (9); which obviously increases one's Dharma; then shouldn't 9th. be loss for the 10th.
As the opposite of gain 'should be' loss.
The above probably means that the 9th. stands for other things than just Dharma??!!
How can the need for Dharma ever vanish for anyone?

Some persons confuse 9th house with real fortune or happiness, but the house of real happiness is 4th ; and this house is related to the urge of understanding the meanings of things and relations which hive us false sense of happiness. 4th house leads up to real happiness which is not in this world but in emancipation from this world.
Rishi=Yes. That is true about some getting confused.
The 9th. is about Dharma; and also the luck/bad luck assisting the native in his/her Karma.

Thus, 4th, 8th and 12th houses make up the Moksha Trikona.

1, 5, 9 = Dharma Trikona.

2, 6, 10 = Artha / Dhana Trikona.

3, 7, 11 = Kaama Trikons.

4, 8, 12 = Moksha Trikona.

These points will be more clear if we try to understand them with reference to relevant divisional charts in actual case studies.

-Vinay Jha

Rishi

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:56 am

Snippets from a complex discourse, here on MB...!

"VJ: 9th house is the house of Dharma. Many persons now-a-days confuse Dharma with spirituality. But spirituality is a vague term which mixes many different strands. In Vedic thought, Dharma is a technical term which signifies the force that sustains our life as well as the entire society and the whole world. Special Vedic rituals or karmakaandas make up and strengthen Dharma. But ethical rules like truth, patience, tolerance, etc are essential for these rituals to be menaingful. Dharma and Moksha are different purushaarthas. Hence the field of 12th house is quite different from that of 9th house.

Rishi=I would say spirituality & Dharma are quite connected; the meaning of 'Dharma' is ...'Virtue, righteousness, and duty, esp. social and caste duty in accord with the cosmic order'.
The meaning of 'Spirituality' doesnt fit into such a clear definition as Dharma would.
Spirituality, I would say is a 'state of mind'.

VJ: Good karmas (10th house) are dhana-bhaava for Dharma (9th house), i.e., good karmas increase one's Dharmas. But 9th house is 12th for 10th, which means when 9th house is strong the bonds of karma wither away and the road to salvation opens up. When the urge for moksha gets strong, the need for Dharma vanishes, because Dharma is for well being in this world as well as in Heaven. But salvation is permanent emancipation from this physical world or from heaven or Hell. Therefore, permanent loss of Dharma accompanies the secret knowledge symbolized by 8th house which opens the locks of moksha.

Rishi=Just wondering.
If good karma's are dhana bhava for Dharma (9); which obviously increases one's Dharma; then shouldn't 9th. be loss for the 10th.
As the opposite of gain 'should be' loss.
The above probably means that the 9th. stands for other things than just Dharma??!!
How can the need for Dharma ever vanish for anyone? "

My two copper cents, Rishi -- Dharma is indeed concrete and about discipline and self-denial or perhaps denial of SELF? As in penance and in a sense -- about sin and sinners and nearly all religions have chosen to incorporate that in their frameworks! And so its framework and codicil must be prescriptive, with no leeway or flexibility! But what a way to waste a lifetime that is after-all a GIFT from the Creator! Spirituality is less about following the PROTOCOL, whether it makes sense or not, but simply devotion and accepting that MA lives FOREVER! Each time I see that image of MA KALI stepping on the chest of BABA SHIV, it becomes clearer and clearer!

 That was no concrete or SHAASHWAT (or SANAATAN?) symbol or just an idle-idol-icon, for me. And, I have never taken that as one...!

Rather than trying to pose as a "perfectionist", become a "PURR-FECTIONIST!"  And, that simply involves opening your eyes and the window of mind wider!

To see what is going on around you, in the REAL world and not try to FIND answers in some PALEO-ASTROLOGICAL pursuit!

And not try to get hung up in the acquisition-WHO-loss algorithm approach that many fall prey to! 9th opens up options for KARMA and the GAINS of KARMA are deposited in the LOCKER that is in the XI from it! The VIII!

Beautifully and elegantly placed by (Creator?) right across from the mundane II...! The TWO BANK ACCOUNTS!

Love, Light, Let it go...!

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