Saros, lunar nodes and INDIVIDUALS (Nativities?)

[Rohiniranjan]

Recently, witnessed an ongoing discussion in one of the discussion groups. Pretty heated exchanges!

I am not trying to 'lift' the theme from elsewhere but just posting my simple and straightforward posting in a new thread there, so I am justified in doing so and this is not really cross posting!

Saros and nodal returns (all returns actually!) have been of great interest to me! Has anyone studied these from a practical point of view? I will not rehash my questions which interested folks may peruse below and respond. In order to conserve bandwidth, please do not use 'quote', which makes reading and understanding long threads difficult for many to follow.

Love!

Rohiniranjan



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Saros, lunar nodes and INDIVIDUALS (Nativities?)      
Posted By: rohinicrystal rohinicrystal  Send Email
 Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:16 am  |  



Intrigued, as I and hopefully other dear Phalit-Jyotishis here are too, with
this ongoing currents and countercurrents of that beautiful entity known as
HUMAN MINDs as we all delve into the mysteries and epics of YORE, as those are
called: Mahabharata in the recent threads -- my question is simple and remains
answered. I am not getting impatient, but just thinking like a phalit jyotishi!

How can the nodal periodicity of 18 years well known to all jyotishis, this
SAROS CYCLE be utilized when we examine regular charts that cross our desks in
varying numbers etc?

Eclipses, a byproduct of Saros 'movements' as observed from our planet, have
tweaked the interest of many jyotishis. Mundane predictions have been the
primary beneficiaries of course, and so too from time to time in cases of
individuals with that dreaded doom and gloom of 'eclipse-births!'

Some have voiced that births during or near eclipses are riddled with horrible
lives, and nodal transits if co-occurring with dasas of nodes or planets
influenced or associated with nodes have been fraught with severe karmic
punishments, etc. Even death during infancy or childhood, etc etc etc

Should we, can we just stop at that and pray to Almighty that no one may ever
suffer those and that such charts do not cross our desks and we become the
messengers of doom and gloom that then we would be mandated to inform the
parents or even the nativities that managed to escape early demise or worse?

What advice can the forum members give and straight to the point! I do not seek
the charts of awataars, gods, mythical figures with all the associated
quibblings and quarrels, please, or even scriptural pronouncements, with all the
surrounding mysticism etc.

How can phalit jyotishis use in practice the hidden keys that nodal matters and
their cycles etc are associated with?

And also in situations where nodes get uncomfortably close to planets other than
sun and moon, but a yogakaraka planet for instance, in a regular chart or
associated with an otherwise beneficial yoga, such as hamsa or gaj-kesari, etc.

Thank you, dear Phalit Jyotishis!

Love and Light and Saros!

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

The nodal cycles like other cycles like Jupiter transit same & Saturn transit same are important.

Difference= the nodal cycles are different from the cycles of Jupiter, Saturn & other (not extra Saturnine planets in western astrology) as they are less mundane/earthly; yet they give 'bends' if life.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

The nodal cycles like other cycles like Jupiter transit same & Saturn transit same are important.

Difference= the nodal cycles are different from the cycles of Jupiter, Saturn & other (not extra Saturnine planets in western astrology) as they are less mundane/earthly; yet they give 'bends' if life.

RishiRahul

I would keep an eye on Uranus though! Particularly in older people! The ones outside that 'lakshman rekha' are too erratic and almost as eccentric as comets!

Just an impression!

RR

[RishiRahul]

The nodal cycles like other cycles like Jupiter transit same & Saturn transit same are important.

Difference= the nodal cycles are different from the cycles of Jupiter, Saturn & other (not extra Saturnine planets in western astrology) as they are less mundane/earthly; yet they give 'bends' if life.

RishiRahul

I would keep an eye on Uranus though! Particularly in older people! The ones outside that 'lakshman rekha' are too erratic and almost as eccentric as comets!

Just an impression!

RR

Dada,

Sounds practical.

Since the uranus cycle repeats every 83/84 years, can you explain the change that occurs.
Food for thought....mine & others.

http://www.roseastrology.com/articles-uranus.html
Though the above is about western astrology, it would work everywhere as we bypass the ayanamsa problem, & we can apply it to vedic too in cases like uranus transit saturn or other planets.

Of course Uranus transit langa would be ayanamsa dependant. This is also not important as the slowness of uranus would not give immediate results....thankfully!

I wonder when Uranus entered the present Meena Lagna!?

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Since we are both 'ramblers' and often think aloud I must sound a cautionary word for any beginners that might read this post that Rishi and I are exchanging notes (as we often do!) and they would perhaps benefit from not focussing too much on these notes. That said, we all are beginners to some extent!

Strictly speaking, Jyotish does not 'need' consideration of extrasaturnine planets (Herschel, neptune, pluto). There are many factors in jyotish which most jyotishis do not use, partly because of complexity and also the law of 'diminishing returns' (efforts far outweight benefits of utilizing additional and sometimes complex terms and astroindicators). Perhaps much better to invest mental energy in those than to foray into extrasaturnines which do not operationally fit into the jyotish framework of lordships, dasas, nakshatras, strengths and panchadha etc.

Uranus is a planet that is undecided. What I mean by that is that its path and progress through zodiac is riddled with forward and backward movements. If it (and perhaps this applies to other planets as well) enters a sign and keeps moving back and forth at the junction of two signs, it remains neither here nor there and perhaps we should let it settle down in the next sign (meaning enough penetrance to not back-up into previous sign). A quick check indicates that from mid-2008 to early 2010 uranus was describing such hesitancy at the junction of aquarius and pisces. Of course ones ayanamsha preference would shift the dates that form this range, somewhat.

Astrological *cycles* are analog and similar to a sine-wave. Sadly, many tend to take cycles or phases as binary or digital. For instance lunar paksha (many phases between full-moon and amavasya; many uchhabala phases between maximum exaltation and deep debilitation, etc.

Cycles have certain 'nodal' points (not to be confused with lunar nodes!) into quadrant-points (one cycle divided by quarter-point, mid-point, 3/4 points) and trinal points (thirds of a cycle). It is important to remember that we are not dividing the cycle (time-period) into 4 or 3, but the arc-positions of the planet in the cycle.

Not only the planet whose cycle is being observed, but its dispositor must be kept an eye upon (natal and transit).

I think that should provide some pointers for observers and explorers, all the time remaining mindful that above all one must remain watchful of the law of diminishing returns (pun unintended!)

Love, Light, Elaboration!

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Since we are both 'ramblers' and often think aloud I must sound a cautionary word for any beginners that might read this post that Rishi and I are exchanging notes (as we often do!) and they would perhaps benefit from not focussing too much on these notes. That said, we all are beginners to some extent!

Strictly speaking, Jyotish does not 'need' consideration of extrasaturnine planets (Herschel, neptune, pluto). There are many factors in jyotish which most jyotishis do not use, partly because of complexity and also the law of 'diminishing returns' (efforts far outweight benefits of utilizing additional and sometimes complex terms and astroindicators). Perhaps much better to invest mental energy in those than to foray into extrasaturnines which do not operationally fit into the jyotish framework of lordships, dasas, nakshatras, strengths and panchadha etc.

Uranus is a planet that is undecided. What I mean by that is that its path and progress through zodiac is riddled with forward and backward movements. If it (and perhaps this applies to other planets as well) enters a sign and keeps moving back and forth at the junction of two signs, it remains neither here nor there and perhaps we should let it settle down in the next sign (meaning enough penetrance to not back-up into previous sign). A quick check indicates that from mid-2008 to early 2010 uranus was describing such hesitancy at the junction of aquarius and pisces. Of course ones ayanamsha preference would shift the dates that form this range, somewhat.

Astrological *cycles* are analog and similar to a sine-wave. Sadly, many tend to take cycles or phases as binary or digital. For instance lunar paksha (many phases between full-moon and amavasya; many uchhabala phases between maximum exaltation and deep debilitation, etc.

Cycles have certain 'nodal' points (not to be confused with lunar nodes!) into quadrant-points (one cycle divided by quarter-point, mid-point, 3/4 points) and trinal points (thirds of a cycle). It is important to remember that we are not dividing the cycle (time-period) into 4 or 3, but the arc-positions of the planet in the cycle.

Not only the planet whose cycle is being observed, but its dispositor must be kept an eye upon (natal and transit).

I think that should provide some pointers for observers and explorers, all the time remaining mindful that above all one must remain watchful of the law of diminishing returns (pun unintended!)

Love, Light, Elaboration!

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

Yes. I am aware of these.

Uranus, like Neptune & Pluto has these retrogression phases to before/after entering a rasi.

In such cases as above, I have noted that the destiny is charged on the first entry. When the planet finally, after much dillydallying finally enters the sign, the changes become 'visible'.

This would affect the house it is in ... in terms of any planet (the lordship/s) posited there.



Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

The real challenge would be how to integrate it into the known jyotish framework, as opposed to creating something new or parallel.

Abhi dilli door hai!

[RishiRahul]

The real challenge would be how to integrate it into the known jyotish framework, as opposed to creating something new or parallel.

Abhi dilli door hai!

Dear Dada,

Dilli zaroor door hai.

Actually Delhi attracts me a lot. Its more a karmik Reality; considering I have to travel there 'on work' oftentimes

Till now I have never worried about Neptune/Pluto much (while integrating Pluto & Neptune to Jyotish.

I use Uranus as an 'utopian hyper' planet, as it lets us feel utopian heights which is 'hyper' & unrealistic.
These strong adjectives come about when Rahu transits Uranus.
Ketu frustrates it by clawing in; but heightens it first in most cases.
Saturn does similar to ketu, but the effect is 'broader/longer lasting obviously.
Jupiter brings about a good climax.

Also transit Uranus vacillating between 2008 & 2010 while entering Meena (Nirayan) has a marked result.
ie:Transit Uranus in 4th. house (from lagna) would give a home environment which is not a realistic one for the natives destiny; which is therefore temporary to the transit.

These for me give an added flavour to the usual jyotish.... for better perceptions.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

The real challenge would be how to integrate it into the known jyotish framework, as opposed to creating something new or parallel.

Abhi dilli door hai!

Dear Dada,

Dilli zaroor door hai.

Actually Delhi attracts me a lot. Its more a karmik Reality; considering I have to travel there 'on work' oftentimes

Till now I have never worried about Neptune/Pluto much (while integrating Pluto & Neptune to Jyotish.

I use Uranus as an 'utopian hyper' planet, as it lets us feel utopian heights which is 'hyper' & unrealistic.
These strong adjectives come about when Rahu transits Uranus.
Ketu frustrates it by clawing in; but heightens it first in most cases.
Saturn does similar to ketu, but the effect is 'broader/longer lasting obviously.
Jupiter brings about a good climax.

Also transit Uranus vacillating between 2008 & 2010 while entering Meena (Nirayan) has a marked result.
ie:Transit Uranus in 4th. house (from lagna) would give a home environment which is not a realistic one for the natives destiny; which is therefore temporary to the transit.

These for me give an added flavour to the usual jyotish.... for better perceptions.

Rishi

"Dilli" is a metaphor, Rishi, "Delhi" is concrete! One should not *mix* those up!

You have described an "addition" about uranus etc, but that is not integration!


[By integration into jyotish, just for elaboration, I meant all this time, integration into its accepted framework: dasas, strength determination, nakshatra rulerships, yogas etc.! Transit hits (and misses) are a good start , of course! All explorations are good and additive, to the bag of tools used by divinators of all schools and times and followings.]


Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

The real challenge would be how to integrate it into the known jyotish framework, as opposed to creating something new or parallel.

Abhi dilli door hai!

Dear Dada,

Dilli zaroor door hai.

Actually Delhi attracts me a lot. Its more a karmik Reality; considering I have to travel there 'on work' oftentimes

Till now I have never worried about Neptune/Pluto much (while integrating Pluto & Neptune to Jyotish.

I use Uranus as an 'utopian hyper' planet, as it lets us feel utopian heights which is 'hyper' & unrealistic.
These strong adjectives come about when Rahu transits Uranus.
Ketu frustrates it by clawing in; but heightens it first in most cases.
Saturn does similar to ketu, but the effect is 'broader/longer lasting obviously.
Jupiter brings about a good climax.

Also transit Uranus vacillating between 2008 & 2010 while entering Meena (Nirayan) has a marked result.
ie:Transit Uranus in 4th. house (from lagna) would give a home environment which is not a realistic one for the natives destiny; which is therefore temporary to the transit.

These for me give an added flavour to the usual jyotish.... for better perceptions.

Rishi

"Dilli" is a metaphor, Rishi, "Delhi" is concrete! One should not *mix* those up!

You have described an "addition" about uranus etc, but that is not integration!


[By integration into jyotish, just for elaboration, I meant all this time, integration into its accepted framework: dasas, strength determination, nakshatra rulerships, yogas etc.! Transit hits (and misses) are a good start , of course! All explorations are good and additive, to the bag of tools used by divinators of all schools and times and followings.]


Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

Total integration into the Jyotish framework would not be wise, I think.
Our vimshopttari dasa is unique as made by our sages, & trying to add this can lead to corruption/wishful thinking.

The accepted framework is Original!

Adding own houses & nakshatra rulerships may be practical, but is not my baby.
Someone with more bookish knowledge can take it up somewhere/sometime.

Jyotish is a very sincere subject, & I wouldnt feel safe there.
I feel the method of not going beyond transits is safe for the extrasaturnine planets.

Rishi

[Votive]

While I do not qualify to be called a "phalit jyotishi", but I have spent some time wondering over the Saros and several other cycles.

The Saros cycles appear to be brilliantly resplendent, probably the continuity in change. At any given point, 72/80 cycles weave together some intriguing patterns. The cycles individually taken last for more than one millennium and are much beyond a single human lifespan, yet it is worth focusing on.  

Taken at a given moment, they offer much more of interest to astrology. The Eighteen year return of the same Saros and the 54 year return of the same Saros at similar points on the earth perhaps signify points of critical change in a human life span.

All eclipses are not equal. The cycle begins when Sun is around 18 degrees away from the Nodes, progressing steadily over the 18 year intervals, the cycle matures or reaches its zenith when the Sun and the Nodes are at the same point. This takes almost 36 eclipses or around 650/700 years. The cycle then wanes away for another 650 years or so. In its beauty, nature brings forth a parallel cycle beginning at the opposite end, the Rahu and the Ketu cycles run almost symmetrically. They more or less appear in pairs six lunations apart.
In the NASA data of 5000 years, 163 cycles begin, 161 mature and 162 fade away. Averaging almost 30 years and 8 months for a cycle to begin or end. A curious observation in this data is that the distribution of eclipses at the beginning of, in the middle and the ending are skewed as far as the calendar months are concerned. April to July see the maximum numbers with November, December and January virtually showing negligible starts or ends. Probably there could be an astronomical answer or maybe all those who keep talking of the precession can take a look and see if it is of any value.

Within the 18 years of a Saros cycle return too, there are patterns of eclipses of different magnitudes. While almost 40 cycles criss-cross continuously, Five pairs of cycles are dominant peaks at any time. These peaks indicate strong eclipses wherein the Nodes and Sun are closely conjunct together. Interestingly 47 lunations separate four peaks and one high is 35 lunations apart. As the cycles continue to evolve the 47, 47, 47, 47, 35 changes swiftly. Thus the same Saros returns after a period of 223 lunations.

What though this offers to the Jyotishi?

I have always found that there is much to absorb and reflect from this study of cycles, it can offer some simple explanations to complex rules and assumptions.

For me, the Nodes are points of change. The change may be incremental, evolving slowly or the change may be sudden. The Nodes can act as “game changers” in the journey of life. Since, the change can either be “good” or difficult the nodes can also have varying impact. For all those who predict dire consequences if the nodes are activated, there are many others who seek the unlocking of the Nodal energies too!

A study of the patterns brings some light...

regards,

votive

[Rohiniranjan]

While I do not qualify to be called a "phalit jyotishi", but I have spent some time wondering over the Saros and several other cycles.

The Saros cycles appear to be brilliantly resplendent, probably the continuity in change. At any given point, 72/80 cycles weave together some intriguing patterns. The cycles individually taken last for more than one millennium and are much beyond a single human lifespan, yet it is worth focusing on.  

Taken at a given moment, they offer much more of interest to astrology. The Eighteen year return of the same Saros and the 54 year return of the same Saros at similar points on the earth perhaps signify points of critical change in a human life span.

All eclipses are not equal. The cycle begins when Sun is around 18 degrees away from the Nodes, progressing steadily over the 18 year intervals, the cycle matures or reaches its zenith when the Sun and the Nodes are at the same point. This takes almost 36 eclipses or around 650/700 years. The cycle then wanes away for another 650 years or so. In its beauty, nature brings forth a parallel cycle beginning at the opposite end, the Rahu and the Ketu cycles run almost symmetrically. They more or less appear in pairs six lunations apart.
In the NASA data of 5000 years, 163 cycles begin, 161 mature and 162 fade away. Averaging almost 30 years and 8 months for a cycle to begin or end. A curious observation in this data is that the distribution of eclipses at the beginning of, in the middle and the ending are skewed as far as the calendar months are concerned. April to July see the maximum numbers with November, December and January virtually showing negligible starts or ends. Probably there could be an astronomical answer or maybe all those who keep talking of the precession can take a look and see if it is of any value.

Within the 18 years of a Saros cycle return too, there are patterns of eclipses of different magnitudes. While almost 40 cycles criss-cross continuously, Five pairs of cycles are dominant peaks at any time. These peaks indicate strong eclipses wherein the Nodes and Sun are closely conjunct together. Interestingly 47 lunations separate four peaks and one high is 35 lunations apart. As the cycles continue to evolve the 47, 47, 47, 47, 35 changes swiftly. Thus the same Saros returns after a period of 223 lunations.

What though this offers to the Jyotishi?

I have always found that there is much to absorb and reflect from this study of cycles, it can offer some simple explanations to complex rules and assumptions.

For me, the Nodes are points of change. The change may be incremental, evolving slowly or the change may be sudden. The Nodes can act as “game changers” in the journey of life. Since, the change can either be “good” or difficult the nodes can also have varying impact. For all those who predict dire consequences if the nodes are activated, there are many others who seek the unlocking of the Nodal energies too!

A study of the patterns brings some light...

regards,

votive

Dear Votive,

Very nice sharing and a product of observations of a substantial duration, if I recall!

Certainly worthy of note and follow-up.

Be it jyotish or other similar pursuits, ultimately it all remains a study of cycles and patterns, so can very much coexist (and should!) and complementary to each other, so it is not what it offers to Jyotish that is important but what it offers to the collective quest of reduction if not elimination of UNCERTAINTY!

These may all be very useful together in 'field-work' where the rubber meets the road, as they say.

Nodes as 'game-changers' or even 'triggers' are reasonably well accepted so you are right in labelling them so. Similar to the observations recently shared by Rishi Rahul (nodes and uranus etc) and many other references that have arisen from time to time, within the framework of *Jyotish* and without.

It is unfortunate that a sizeable segment of Jyotish (or is it individual practitioners) still remains clinging to the bosom of "doom and gloom" for succour. Well, some wean early, others late, there is no hurry! Ma patiently waits and would not let go of Her infant, until it is ready!

Love, Light, Nutrition!

Rohiniranjan

[Votive]

Sir,

When one has to correlate the cycles to a chart on hand, many interesting patterns are revealed.
As we are aware that in a year, the nodes slow down and become rather powerful when they reach close to the Sun. And when they are square or in kendra to the Sun they carry a different characteristic. My observations lead me to suggest that for a 18 year cycle , it would be appropriate to look at how Guru and the Nodes are placed with respect to each other.
If Guru is in kendra to the Nodes, it suggests that in that particular year, the eclipses are partial; the closer Guru is to the Nodes, the stronger the eclipses.
So even a look at the chart can be linked to the complex data of the Saros.

regards,

votive

[Rohiniranjan]

Sir,

When one has to correlate the cycles to a chart on hand, many interesting patterns are revealed.
As we are aware that in a year, the nodes slow down and become rather powerful when they reach close to the Sun. And when they are square or in kendra to the Sun they carry a different characteristic. My observations lead me to suggest that for a 18 year cycle , it would be appropriate to look at how Guru and the Nodes are placed with respect to each other.
If Guru is in kendra to the Nodes, it suggests that in that particular year, the eclipses are partial; the closer Guru is to the Nodes, the stronger the eclipses.
So even a look at the chart can be linked to the complex data of the Saros.

regards,

votive

Interesting point! So, may we extrapolate then, that when jupiter is in angles from nodes, nodes are more benevolent or in other words less effective in their touted malevolence? The assumption being that partial eclipses are less 'doom and gloom causing' than stronger or total eclipses!

So if nodes are close to Jupiter making a gajkeshari yoga for instance (hence angular and also enveloping moon in the combination) the yoga would be a) powerful, b) powerless (malefic nodes overpowering the good inherent in gajkeshari) or even malefic?

What shall our call be, in such an instance...?

Love, Light, Exploration!

Rohiniranjan

[Votive]

Probably, the extrapolation may not be so straight!

If we can shift a bit from the benefic- malefic line, maybe we get a better view.
For the Nodes which represent a cycle which is just gathering momentum, is young and curious, the changes may be even more in its nature, like the mountain spring which has just emerged on the surface and is bubbly, vivacious, energetic!
Such Nodes are associated many a times with Jupiter in kendras. But are the Nodes in kendra to Sun too?
Or are they closely associated with Sun?

Similarly, those Nodes which tend to stronger eclipses may not impact as commandingly if they arent closer to the Sun!

So while we look at the Nodes with respect to jupiter, we have to simultaneously look at their Sun association too.

The Gaja Kesari with Jupiter in kendra with the nodes would involve the Moon in close connection with the nodes. But where is the Moon relative to Sun?
If it is a half moon of either paksha, the situation changes when compared to the Moon nearing a new or a full moon!

Relativity, balance and the energies, whether they are finding resonance or not.

rishi