Vedic Bhava chalit

[Rohiniranjan]

Dear Rishi Rahul Ji,
                                Good to message you after long time .  :)

Rishi Ji, Bhava chart is time sensitive in some charts at particular time.

Generally i check the time +- 5 minutes to the original time so that in  Bhava chart   planetary positions does not change . If one or 2 planets change in that 5 minute period then i stick to rasi chart .

Rishi Ji, there may be errors with respect to noting down of time. How can we then analyse the Bhava  chart. In some charts i have noticed that time difference of 15 minutes will not change the planetary positions in Bhava chart .


Also Rishi Ji, i wanted to ask you this doubt Long back but could not ask you. But now i will ask this question.

Rishi Ji, Baadka Concept is making me mad. Rishi Ji , if you remember i gave my uncles birth details in this post.


Thank You

Vijayan,

Yes, bhava charts are 'more' time sensitive than rasi charts.

Since you ask my advice, I would never neglect a rasi chart.
This is because the 12 rasis are clear cut separate mansions demarcated by the sages; western or Eastern.

The bhava or chalit chart is like the 'penumbra', while the rasi chart is the 'umbra; of the native's chart.
It is mathematically more precise.   Even if it is mathematically precise, we should never neglect a rasi chart; but make use of the differences in the chalit chart judiciously.

Judiciously= comes from experience.

Let us hope Vinay ji, RR ji or others can explain this more vivid.

RishiRahul

Thanks! Speaking for myself, I have faith that you are doing what is perfect in the current situation that the situation demands!  :smt004

Regards,

Dada

[vijiyan]

Dear Rishi Rahul  Ji , i am awaiting your reply  .  :)

[RishiRahul]

Dear Rishi Rahul Ji,
                                Good to message you after long time .  :)


Also Rishi Ji, i wanted to ask you this doubt Long back but could not ask you. But now i will ask this question.

Rishi Ji, Baadka Concept is making me mad. Rishi Ji , if you remember i gave my uncles birth details in this post.

My uncle is Kanya Lagna and Jupiter is Baadaka  . He achieved all the academic accolades in Jupiter Maha Dasha.

Mine is Makara Lagna and i faced Baadaka Period of mars and i was happy during that period.

My sister has Mesha Lagna and she has 3 planets in 11th house that includes Lagna lord.

She is having Baadaka period of Saturn Maha Dasha from 2000 and she is happy as well.

Please clarify the topic of Baadaka period.

Thank You

Vijayan,

No, I do not remember your uncles chart. It should be somewhere at mb; but no worries.

For kanya lagna Jupiter has kendradhipati dosha; is the badhak lord, and marak lord.
Is Jupiter afflicted?

Let me repeat this again in a better way:=For kanya lagna, Jupiter has got badhak popensities; but to be bad it needs to suffer affliction.
The planet with the bad propensity, if afflicted, and or ill placed can be hurtful.


Let us come to your sister:

There is a badhak lord, and also there are planets placed in badhakshthana.
The badhakshana is more sinister that a badhak lord.
A graha when placed in badhakshtana grabs the attention of the place.

Again, out of the 3 planets in badhaksthana, the planet in badhaksthana in rasi & chalit is expected to be more hurtful.

Some approx hints...

RishiRahul

Vijayan,

No, I do not remember your uncles chart. It should be somewhere at mb; but no worries.

For kanya lagna Jupiter has kendradhipati dosha; is the badhak lord, and marak lord.
Is Jupiter afflicted?

Let me repeat this again in a better way:=For kanya lagna, Jupiter has got badhak popensities; but to be bad it needs to suffer affliction.
The planet with the bad propensity, if afflicted, and or ill placed can be hurtful.

RishiRahul

Dear Rishi Rahul Ji, here are the birth details.
His details:

1st August 1958
10: 25 am
Nagpur, Maharashtra
Longitude: 79 : 6 E
Latitude: 21 9 N

Lagna: Kanya


I shared this birth details for Bhava chart on 8th page of this same topic.

Thank You

Vijayan,

Jupiter is technically badhakadhipati, and with a malefic Rahu, therefore it is an afflicted badhakadhipati.

Regarding education/career= it is the 4th. lord in the 2nd. house= 2nd. & 4th. stands for education; while Rahu can accentuate and or influence towards material life= Jupiter is in the sub of 1, 10, 12; showing  successful effort (1) in self development, profession (10); while (12) MAY denote moving away to abroad/separation from the present. Which means rising up in personality in career= Jupiter the 4th. lord and dasa lord gets 7 bindus in astakvarga (the highest in the chart).

Thus high accolades in education is justified.

What about badhak then?

The badhakadhipati Jupiter getting 7 bindus is lucky to get his evil propensities cleaned/lessened.

A possibility=
Either the badhak properties are sucked in by Rahu; or has been transferred to Ketu and or Mangal.

Even if so or not, Jupiter is in the star of the 3rd. & 8th. lord; so it does not signify an esay period considering all aspects, but the luck & effort assisted.

There are many riddles in Jyotish, & many pluses & minuses. And as one says 'justifying something is easy if the logic is strong.

Personally, to come out of this trial, I use palmistry to check how much the Jupiter dasa has actually affected etc etc..

But again, sticking to Jyotish:=
As per the chalit chart I use, Mars and Ketu moves to badhak place (7th), so maybe it is sucked in by them.


RishiRahul

[vijiyan]

Vijayan,

Jupiter is technically badhakadhipati, and with a malefic Rahu, therefore it is an afflicted badhakadhipati.

Regarding education/career= it is the 4th. lord in the 2nd. house= 2nd. & 4th. stands for education; while Rahu can accentuate and or influence towards material life= Jupiter is in the sub of 1, 10, 12; showing  successful effort (1) in self development, profession (10); while (12) MAY denote moving away to abroad/separation from the present. Which means rising up in personality in career= Jupiter the 4th. lord and dasa lord gets 7 bindus in astakvarga (the highest in the chart).

Thus high accolades in education is justified.

What about badhak then?

The badhakadhipati Jupiter getting 7 bindus is lucky to get his evil propensities cleaned/lessened.

A possibility=
Either the badhak properties are sucked in by Rahu; or has been transferred to Ketu and or Mangal.

Even if so or not, Jupiter is in the star of the 3rd. & 8th. lord; so it does not signify an esay period considering all aspects, but the luck & effort assisted.

There are many riddles in Jyotish, & many pluses & minuses. And as one says 'justifying something is easy if the logic is strong.

Personally, to come out of this trial, I use palmistry to check how much the Jupiter dasa has actually affected etc etc..

But again, sticking to Jyotish:=
As per the chalit chart I use, Mars and Ketu moves to badhak place (7th), so maybe it is sucked in by them.


RishiRahul

Dear Rishi Rahul Ji, that was an Exemplary explanation. Simply it was too good.

Rishi Rahul Ji, i want to give one information here, may be that will be of help to you. In the chart Jupiter lords 4th and 7th house . In later part of his life both his wife and mother suffered from Cancer . It was painful for him. Both suffered similar type of cancer. Luckily both recovered from the disease and are leading a Happy life. I am of the opinion due to Rahu being in close conjunction has given this pain to his spouse and mother ????

Thank You Rishi Ji for you analysis . It was peace for me in a certain way  :)

[Vinay Jha]

Namaste,

Rishi Ji says :

"I am aware that as per K.P. system the vedic bhavamadhya is the bhava Armbha."

Is this sentence not illogical ? How madhya = arambha ?

Rishi Ji ought to have said that KP bhaava-madhya is equal to vedic bhaavaarambha.

Chowkhamba edition (Late Pt Devachandra Jha) gives the detailed procedure of computing Vedic bhaavachalita houses which is used by all those who prefer Vedic bhaavachalita. This version of BPHS is the earliest extant CLASSICAL source of Vedic bhaavachalita, and its correctness is proven by the Suryasiddhantic formulas for Lagna and Dashama which show Unequal House Division (these formulas are repeated verbatim in Narada Purana also). But KP's bhaavachalita has no classical backing, hence it cannot be called "Vedic".

I had once narrated the historical origins of 15 degree difference in Vedic Lagna and Western Lagna which influenced KP.

VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

Namaste,

Rishi Ji says :

"I am aware that as per K.P. system the vedic bhavamadhya is the bhava Armbha."

Is this sentence not illogical ? How madhya = arambha ?

Rishi Ji ought to have said that KP bhaava-madhya is equal to vedic bhaavaarambha.

Chowkhamba edition (Late Pt Devachandra Jha) gives the detailed procedure of computing Vedic bhaavachalita houses which is used by all those who prefer Vedic bhaavachalita. This version of BPHS is the earliest extant CLASSICAL source of Vedic bhaavachalita, and its correctness is proven by the Suryasiddhantic formulas for Lagna and Dashama which show Unequal House Division (these formulas are repeated verbatim in Narada Purana also). But KP's bhaavachalita has no classical backing, hence it cannot be called "Vedic".

I had once narrated the historical origins of 15 degree difference in Vedic Lagna and Western Lagna which influenced KP.

VJ

In defence of Rishirahul, although he is quite capable of doing so himself, what he meant to imply (or so I understood) was that the bhavamadhya that most jyotishis use as mid-point (Madhya) is treated in KP as the beginning (arambha) of houses in that system. Which is what all tropical astrologers (or mainstream) do as well.

I may be sticking my neck a bit and KP followers may not like that, but I will say it anyways.

I am not sure about how Shri Krishnamurthy used to calculate charts, but in his times, Raphael's table of houses which used Placidus cusps (using ascending degree (etc) as the beginning of the first house) were probably available as a ready reckoner. Probably Krishnamurthy ji was using that in his time. I am not aware of any Jyotishi who was using placidius cusps in those days or before his time. He probably also used Raphael's tropical ephemeris and corrected the values for sidereal zodiac using KP ayanamsha which used to be only 6 minutes different from Lahiri or Chitrapaksha. I think later on Krishnamurthy also published an ephemeris for planets using his ayanamsha values. I may still have a copy with me of that, somewhere in my collection.

Raman's and Lahiri's tables of houses and ascendants etc became popular after then and were more in line with what Jyotishis use. Also their ephemerides.

I remain open to the possibility that my surmise is wrong and Krishnamurthy ji was doing traditional long had calculations of entire horoscopes instead of using ephemeris and tables of houses, ascendants as others were. In the 60s or thereafter, I had observed more traditional jyotishis also using local ephemeris for calculating charts by interpolation (just like those using modern ephemeris) and many of them calculated the lagnas and just used whole sign or equal houses as those were convenient. Few did calculate based on sripati houses (which are identical to what tropicalists call Porphyrii house division system). Near the equator, houses do not vary as wildly as in more northern and southern latitudes and so a little approximation did not matter to them much, possibly, but reduced calculation time and effort. They were not doing too many finer calculations either, or perhaps not telling or showing to me! Those were different times and too many questions were not asked as it might have seemed impolite. Quite honestly, that frustrated me, but those were very different times...!

A famous jyotishi from Ujjain, Shri Suryanarayan Vyas ji (whom you knew very well) and well-known for his predictive prowess, I have heard, used to rely on his brother who was Ganit-patu for calculations in the traditional way while the phalit was handled by Vyas ji. They worked in collaboration.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Namaste,

Rishi Ji says :

"I am aware that as per K.P. system the vedic bhavamadhya is the bhava Armbha."

Is this sentence not illogical ? How madhya = arambha ?

Rishi Ji ought to have said that KP bhaava-madhya is equal to vedic bhaavaarambha.

Chowkhamba edition (Late Pt Devachandra Jha) gives the detailed procedure of computing Vedic bhaavachalita houses which is used by all those who prefer Vedic bhaavachalita. This version of BPHS is the earliest extant CLASSICAL source of Vedic bhaavachalita, and its correctness is proven by the Suryasiddhantic formulas for Lagna and Dashama which show Unequal House Division (these formulas are repeated verbatim in Narada Purana also). But KP's bhaavachalita has no classical backing, hence it cannot be called "Vedic".

I had once narrated the historical origins of 15 degree difference in Vedic Lagna and Western Lagna which influenced KP.

VJ

Dear Vinay ji,

You are correct. My explaining was not right enough.  You have explained it better.

Now coming to facts of astrology:
Maybe what I use as chalit is not 'vedic' or 'purely vedic'; also what I use others' need not follow.

Again, I do not limit myself to just purely vedic, though vedic is my 'Base', rather 'Crutch' in astrology.

I limit myself to what works better for me. Like the famous saying goes--- the proof of the pudding is in the eating.........my eating here.  

I just shared something in the forum.


Rishi

[RishiRahul]

Namaste,

Rishi Ji says :

"I am aware that as per K.P. system the vedic bhavamadhya is the bhava Armbha."

Is this sentence not illogical ? How madhya = arambha ?

Rishi Ji ought to have said that KP bhaava-madhya is equal to vedic bhaavaarambha.

Chowkhamba edition (Late Pt Devachandra Jha) gives the detailed procedure of computing Vedic bhaavachalita houses which is used by all those who prefer Vedic bhaavachalita. This version of BPHS is the earliest extant CLASSICAL source of Vedic bhaavachalita, and its correctness is proven by the Suryasiddhantic formulas for Lagna and Dashama which show Unequal House Division (these formulas are repeated verbatim in Narada Purana also). But KP's bhaavachalita has no classical backing, hence it cannot be called "Vedic".

I had once narrated the historical origins of 15 degree difference in Vedic Lagna and Western Lagna which influenced KP.

VJ

In defence of Rishirahul, although he is quite capable of doing so himself, what he meant to imply (or so I understood) was that the bhavamadhya that most jyotishis use as mid-point (Madhya) is treated in KP as the beginning (arambha) of houses in that system. Which is what all tropical astrologers (or mainstream) do as well.

I may be sticking my neck a bit and KP followers may not like that, but I will say it anyways.

I am not sure about how Shri Krishnamurthy used to calculate charts, but in his times, Raphael's table of houses which used Placidus cusps (using ascending degree (etc) as the beginning of the first house) were probably available as a ready reckoner. Probably Krishnamurthy ji was using that in his time. I am not aware of any Jyotishi who was using placidius cusps in those days or before his time. He probably also used Raphael's tropical ephemeris and corrected the values for sidereal zodiac using KP ayanamsha which used to be only 6 minutes different from Lahiri or Chitrapaksha. I think later on Krishnamurthy also published an ephemeris for planets using his ayanamsha values. I may still have a copy with me of that, somewhere in my collection.

Raman's and Lahiri's tables of houses and ascendants etc became popular after then and were more in line with what Jyotishis use. Also their ephemerides.

I remain open to the possibility that my surmise is wrong and Krishnamurthy ji was doing traditional long had calculations of entire horoscopes instead of using ephemeris and tables of houses, ascendants as others were. In the 60s or thereafter, I had observed more traditional jyotishis also using local ephemeris for calculating charts by interpolation (just like those using modern ephemeris) and many of them calculated the lagnas and just used whole sign or equal houses as those were convenient. Few did calculate based on sripati houses (which are identical to what tropicalists call Porphyrii house division system). Near the equator, houses do not vary as wildly as in more northern and southern latitudes and so a little approximation did not matter to them much, possibly, but reduced calculation time and effort. They were not doing too many finer calculations either, or perhaps not telling or showing to me! Those were different times and too many questions were not asked as it might have seemed impolite. Quite honestly, that frustrated me, but those were very different times...!

A famous jyotishi from Ujjain, Shri Suryanarayan Vyas ji (whom you knew very well) and well-known for his predictive prowess, I have heard, used to rely on his brother who was Ganit-patu for calculations in the traditional way while the phalit was handled by Vyas ji. They worked in collaboration.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Dear Dada,

Both these points are the same; ie as they are the strongest point in a bhava.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Let us hold our breaths and receive what Vinay ji has to say and add...?

His sharings though sparing here on MB had always been precious and here is where his Internet sharings have always had been well received and always welcome!

Rohiniranjan

[Vinay Jha]

Namaste,

Both Rohini Ji and Rishi Ji are correct, although manner of expression sometimes creates confusion. I was not confused about Rishi Ji, I only wanted to use clearer and less confusing statements so that novices should not be confused.

Krishnamurty Ji's Ephemeris lies in my Darbhanga residence which lies locked for years, I live in Varanasi. Moreover, it is futile to discuss his original method because I do not want to invite the wrath of modern KP astrologers because my cup is already full. If you visit JR (Jyotish_Remedies), you will find some of my writings on explanation of the classical rule behind natural friendships and explanation of some of Brihajjataka's verses invites abuses from know-all abusers of Jyotisha who are pampered by the moderator while I am on moderation since I declared that I am not going to sue any abuser (esp Sunil Nair) legally.

Now, come to origin of difference between bhaava-madhya and bhaavaarambha. I had once posted a long explanation at some forum which I believe Rohini Dada must have read. I did not archive my writings then, but now I have started saving my astrological postings on forums at my website in article form. Here is the summary of that essay :

There was no difference between Ptolemaic and Vedic horoscope because ayanamsha was almost zero then. There are irrefutable evidences from Arabic and European sources that no astrologer or astronomer used tropical zodiac before 15th century. The value of ayanamsha in Handy Tables of Theon of Alexandria, of Baghdad's astronomers, as well as in Alphonso Tables of Spain and other tables of Europe including that used by Copernicus was always almost equal to Suryasiddhaantic ayanamsha at their times. I possess irrefutable evidendes of these facts. Unfortunately, opponents of Vedic Astrology are spreading lies during modern era and propagate that tropical system is eternal. But more serious writers in West accept that the most ancient sources of Western Astrology were always sidereal : Mesopotamian (Chaldean) clay tablets in cuneiform script which have been translated and published (I possess its digital copy, sent to me by a Turk from Intanbul).

It was around 15th to 16th century that traditional astronomy was rejected in favour of Heliocentric tropical system. Gradually, astrologers, starting from Kepler. started shifting to tropical system. I do not know which system Kepler used in astrology (he was an astrologer primarily, which modern historians hide because they hate astrology), but he was the first person who sowed the seeds of tropical system in astronomy, strengthened by Newton firmly much later.

T that time, the value of ayanamsha was about 15 degrees (1499 AD to be exact). Hence, when sidereal system was discarded in Renaissance, it was necessary that 15 degree offset ought to be added to ascendant for making correct horoscopes. Hence, bhaava-madha became bhaava-arambha. For instance, if Lagna was at 75 degrees in tropical system, it should be 60 degrees in sidereal system at that time due to 15 degree ayanamsha. Therefore, if sidereal horoscopes are changed into tropical, sidereal lagna of 60 degrees at bhaava-madhya will be same as 60 degree tropical lagna at bhaava-arambha.

Unfortunately, later Wetern astrologers stuck to this mediaeval. Hence, with nearly 23 or 24 degree ayanamsha now, there is 7 or 8 degrees error in western horoscopes, which resuslts in 25% wrong horoscopes if purely tropical system is used with lagna as bhaabaarambha (if tropical system is used with lagna as bhaava-madhya error will increase to 80% or 24 degrees out of 30 deg in a sign). 25% error is overlooked, but it makes a nonsense of divisional charts in which errors multiply. Hence, vargas cannot be used in western system. Instead, they invented harmonics which has no basis in classics of east or west.

With increasing ayanamsha, errors in tropical system will continue to increase and a time will come when all of them will revert to sidereal system. That time is not too far off, because after 500 years error will go up to 50% which will make a nonsense of tropical astrology.

VJ

[RishiRahul]

Namaste,

Both Rohini Ji and Rishi Ji are correct, although manner of expression sometimes creates confusion. I was not confused about Rishi Ji, I only wanted to use clearer and less confusing statements so that novices should not be confused.

Krishnamurty Ji's Ephemeris lies in my Darbhanga residence which lies locked for years, I live in Varanasi. Moreover, it is futile to discuss his original method because I do not want to invite the wrath of modern KP astrologers because my cup is already full. If you visit JR (Jyotish_Remedies), you will find some of my writings on explanation of the classical rule behind natural friendships and explanation of some of Brihajjataka's verses invites abuses from know-all abusers of Jyotisha who are pampered by the moderator while I am on moderation since I declared that I am not going to sue any abuser (esp Sunil Nair) legally.

Now, come to origin of difference between bhaava-madhya and bhaavaarambha. I had once posted a long explanation at some forum which I believe Rohini Dada must have read. I did not archive my writings then, but now I have started saving my astrological postings on forums at my website in article form. Here is the summary of that essay :

There was no difference between Ptolemaic and Vedic horoscope because ayanamsha was almost zero then. There are irrefutable evidences from Arabic and European sources that no astrologer or astronomer used tropical zodiac before 15th century. The value of ayanamsha in Handy Tables of Theon of Alexandria, of Baghdad's astronomers, as well as in Alphonso Tables of Spain and other tables of Europe including that used by Copernicus was always almost equal to Suryasiddhaantic ayanamsha at their times. I possess irrefutable evidendes of these facts. Unfortunately, opponents of Vedic Astrology are spreading lies during modern era and propagate that tropical system is eternal. But more serious writers in West accept that the most ancient sources of Western Astrology were always sidereal : Mesopotamian (Chaldean) clay tablets in cuneiform script which have been translated and published (I possess its digital copy, sent to me by a Turk from Intanbul).

It was around 15th to 16th century that traditional astronomy was rejected in favour of Heliocentric tropical system. Gradually, astrologers, starting from Kepler. started shifting to tropical system. I do not know which system Kepler used in astrology (he was an astrologer primarily, which modern historians hide because they hate astrology), but he was the first person who sowed the seeds of tropical system in astronomy, strengthened by Newton firmly much later.

T that time, the value of ayanamsha was about 15 degrees (1499 AD to be exact). Hence, when sidereal system was discarded in Renaissance, it was necessary that 15 degree offset ought to be added to ascendant for making correct horoscopes. Hence, bhaava-madha became bhaava-arambha. For instance, if Lagna was at 75 degrees in tropical system, it should be 60 degrees in sidereal system at that time due to 15 degree ayanamsha. Therefore, if sidereal horoscopes are changed into tropical, sidereal lagna of 60 degrees at bhaava-madhya will be same as 60 degree tropical lagna at bhaava-arambha.

Unfortunately, later Wetern astrologers stuck to this mediaeval. Hence, with nearly 23 or 24 degree ayanamsha now, there is 7 or 8 degrees error in western horoscopes, which resuslts in 25% wrong horoscopes if purely tropical system is used with lagna as bhaabaarambha (if tropical system is used with lagna as bhaava-madhya error will increase to 80% or 24 degrees out of 30 deg in a sign). 25% error is overlooked, but it makes a nonsense of divisional charts in which errors multiply. Hence, vargas cannot be used in western system. Instead, they invented harmonics which has no basis in classics of east or west.

With increasing ayanamsha, errors in tropical system will continue to increase and a time will come when all of them will revert to sidereal system. That time is not too far off, because after 500 years error will go up to 50% which will make a nonsense of tropical astrology.

VJ

Vinay ji,

Thank you for understanding what I wanted to express. I guess I need to improve the 'perfect communication' ability
I appreciate.

Not aware what the original KP texts said; but I possess all the 6 readers by Krishnamurthy and learnt KP ' theory' from them.

Just wanted to know if there was/you possess an earlier original method.
Thanks.

About abuses= there are and will be people, even seekers, ready to find fault in scriptures as it doesn't suit their perspective/understanding, as many seek short cuts in learning... some are impatient.
I agree; but I feel sure that MB is not like that, so long as we are united and graceful in learning /sharing.

What you say regarding the history related to sayan and ayanamsa; typical & vedic is wonderfully educative..... and is theory in terms of history.
You have the scientific mind a history seeker needs.  :)

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Bhavarambha seems to have been embraced by the followers of the western zodiac that dominantly uses (and misuses?) english!

Bhavamadhya has been the favourite of Jyotishis that I have known and read!!

When the two zodiacs were different by 15 degrees then Leo 17d tropical would be Leo 2d sidereal?

Sidereal (jyotish) house would extend from 17d cancer to 17d leo? Using equal house division for simplicty?

Tropical (western/babylonian, etc) would, since they use bhavarambha, their house would extend from 17d Leo to 17d Virgo or so on?

How does that solve this puzzle ;-?

If it was the other way around and sidereal folks were moving towards bhavarambha vs bhavamadhya, then the explanation might apply!

Bhavarambha = using the lagna sphuta/spashta (ascending degree?) as defining the DOOR into the first house and subsequent ones...?

Bhavamadhya = The candle in the middle of a room which jyotishis use and so beautifully stated by Sri Nirmal Chandra Lahiri, to whom many are beholden to (or his ayanamsha!), and whether or not following his recommendations, have always held him in highest esteem!

Love and Light and Reality,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

The change to The k.p style works for me with bhavas; but not when it is applied to rasis actually.

Rishi

[Vinay Jha]

Bhavarambha seems to have been embraced by the followers of the western zodiac that dominantly uses (and misuses?) english!

Bhavamadhya has been the favourite of Jyotishis that I have known and read!!

When the two zodiacs were different by 15 degrees then Leo 17d tropical would be Leo 2d sidereal?

Sidereal (jyotish) house would extend from 17d cancer to 17d leo? Using equal house division for simplicty?

Tropical (western/babylonian, etc) would, since they use bhavarambha, their house would extend from 17d Leo to 17d Virgo or so on?

How does that solve this puzzle ;-?

If it was the other way around and sidereal folks were moving towards bhavarambha vs bhavamadhya, then the explanation might apply!

Bhavarambha = using the lagna sphuta/spashta (ascending degree?) as defining the DOOR into the first house and subsequent ones...?

Bhavamadhya = The candle in the middle of a room which jyotishis use and so beautifully stated by Sri Nirmal Chandra Lahiri, to whom many are beholden to (or his ayanamsha!), and whether or not following his recommendations, have always held him in highest esteem!

Love and Light and Reality,

Rohiniranjan

Namaste,

(I was away on tours and then got food poisoning, hence I could not read this message.)

Sidereal Astrology was everywhere in use till 16th century when scientists having no regard for astrology adopted Tropical system just because measurements were easy in Tropical system : there was no bright star at sidereal Meshaarambha but it is easy to find equinoxes.

Till then, ayanamsha as well as basics of astrology such as exaltation points of planets or effects of houses had no difference in Indian and European astrology. Earliest Western horoscopes date from Chaldean Clay Tablets which were 100% sidereal (400 BCE).

What we call Sidereal Astrology is actually hybrid system because it needs tropical computations for deducing Sunrise, declinations, lagna, etc, while final longitudes are to be shown in sidereal reckoning. Hence, ayanamsha is a must in the so-called Sidereal System. But when Tropical System was adopted, there was no use of ayanamsha (a purely sidereal system would not need ayanamsha too, but then astrology will be wrong because lagna cannot be computed without Tropical computations since Lagna is the rising point of the ecliptic). Without ayanamsha, everything had to be remodelled.

Suppose ayanamsha is 15 degrees. In Vedic Astrology, if First House extends from sidereal 17d Cancer to 17d Leo (assuming equal houses for simplicity), it will be same as Tropical 2d Leo to 2d Vir, by adding 15 degrees of ayanamsha. Now, keep the same range of First House in Tropical System but re-define the House Start as Ascendant, then stop using ayanamsha. This is what Europeans did, after the pressure from scientists who preferred Tropical System. In the sky, Vedic houses will occupy the same region as Western houses, only the system of measurement will be changed from sidereal to Tropical. But due to weight of tradition, the definition of Lagna was changed, sidereal Lagna at 2d Leo should be Tropical 17d Leo, but in the new Western system Asc was declared to be at house start. Nevertheless, all twelve house in Western system occupied the same position in Heavens as the twelve Vedic houses, resulting in no difference in astrological readings of horoscopes. But with passage of Time, ayanamsha has now increased from 15d to about 23d, resulting in 8d error in house positions, causing 8 wrong horoscopes per 30 natives in Western astrology.

RR Ji says "Sidereal house would extend from 17d cancer to 17d leo" which is same as Tropical 2d Leo to 2d Vir with 15d ayanamsha. Hence, house start is at 2d Leo which is the Asc in Western system. RR Ji is confused because he does not see a re-definition of Ascendant. Vedic Asc (=house mid) is 15 degree advanced than Western  Asc (=house start), therefore when the two systems started diverging the definition of Asc was changed.

VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

Vinay bhai,

Sorry to hear about your ill health and glad to hear that you are recovering well. The real confusing thing is that currently most jyotishis use bhav-madhya except for the followers of KP and a few intrepid researchers-experimenters who vouch for the correct way being the bhavarambha placement of lagna sphuta (and other cusps), whereas western tropicalists use the same (bhavarambha) using tropical zodiac; all camps claiming that their system is perfect as used. One western jyotishi astrologer claims that jyotish rules work perfectly with tropical zodiacal placements!

One tropicalist even made a statement recently that western tropical system worked better for the western psyche while eastern sidereal system worked better for the eastern psyche -- in terms of traits and personality descriptions etc.

Confusion prevails everywhere it seems these days

Regards,

Rohiniranjan