Which is the house (astrologically!) for the 2nd and subsequent spouses?

[RishiRahul]

A question, if I may...

Do we look at different houses for subsequent jobs, careers, diseases?
Some do evaluate different houses for lower and higher education, but is it necessary really?
Marriage, whether, first or subsequent, is marriage.

Just pondering...

Votive

... but, seriously lot of people do remarry and so seeing different people (spouses) from a single house does pose problems, if not confusion.

In the same vein, and perhaps even more frequent are the instances of people having to find work in different sectors etc is fairly common. And many have to undergo retraining, advanced training, at times even in different sectors etc. So, even 3 and 9 or 4 and 9 as some utilize may not serve all the needs (training/education area). In the past it worked out, but society was a lot different and whether marriage or education or work, there used to more stability generally.

Modern astrologers would need to become more aware of these simple realities in life to complete the palette of human experience.

Anyways, that is what I think.

Rohiniranjan

That is where you & votive are bang on!

Astrology and or Jyotish is 'simpler' than what we would like to believe.

The house of marriage always remains the house of marriage, even if its second etc.

But can we still deny the flavours of the other?

My understanding.... NO, they are spoken of in different compartments.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

A question, if I may...

Do we look at different houses for subsequent jobs, careers, diseases?
Some do evaluate different houses for lower and higher education, but is it necessary really?
Marriage, whether, first or subsequent, is marriage.

Just pondering...

Votive

... but, seriously lot of people do remarry and so seeing different people (spouses) from a single house does pose problems, if not confusion.

In the same vein, and perhaps even more frequent are the instances of people having to find work in different sectors etc is fairly common. And many have to undergo retraining, advanced training, at times even in different sectors etc. So, even 3 and 9 or 4 and 9 as some utilize may not serve all the needs (training/education area). In the past it worked out, but society was a lot different and whether marriage or education or work, there used to more stability generally.

Modern astrologers would need to become more aware of these simple realities in life to complete the palette of human experience.

Anyways, that is what I think.

Rohiniranjan

That is where you & votive are bang on!

Astrology and or Jyotish is 'simpler' than what we would like to believe.

The house of marriage always remains the house of marriage, even if its second etc.

But can we still deny the flavours of the other?

My understanding.... NO, they are spoken of in different compartments.

RishiRahul

Rishi ji,

Right from the outset of posting my question here and at other jyotish fora, I was very clear that I was asking the question about the people, not the institution. If you meant by 'other compartments' the relevant varga (D9) and I believe Certain also mentioned the D7 (as heard or read from another astrologer), or whether you were referring to the kalatra-karaka (chara) or even Upapada (UL), my original question still remains unanswered. Hororscope may jyotishi kahaan dekhain second spouse or third spouse?

It is not a silly question, or impractical for that matter. And may give some good hints about 2nd training, 2nd job etc.

For children, it seems the sibling principle does work, so as we both commented somewhere here: 5th house for first born, 7th for 2nd born and so on. It has been reported to work in the case of twins too from what I read (elder even by minutes from 1st and next one from 3rd house of the same chart, their birth chart!

Some have seen the 2nd spouse as enemy of the first one (so 6th house), others as termination of the first relationship (though even that is not black and white). In some communities and olden times, the younger unmarried sister of the dead first wife sometimes customarily stepped in and so we see that the 9th house (3rd from 7th) is to be considered (in the man's chart) as representing the wife.

Such a simple question but we all are scratching our heads and hearts but no clear answers emerging so far. Neither here, nor anywhere else!

I am not trying to minimize or mock any of these discussions, please understand (just in case some are feeling so) nor am I trying to test (as happens in horoscope quizzes) anyone! So, please share your views and musings, freely.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

[Certain]

Another two both ... divorced twice

Person Y

June 19 1977
4:10 am
delhi


person G

march 10 1973
9:30 am
mumbai

Person G has Second house occupied by Saturn.
Based on my observation of second house , I feel that second marriage did not survive when there are tough planets in it by virtue of their own presence or by aspect to eighth.
Second thing which I have noticed  is that Saturn in 7th house who conventionally is not considered as bad , has always proven to be a deal breaker in my observation.  I have seen many divorce cases with Saturn in seventh house.  May be definition of doable and daunting has to do with it, as it varies with each era. What was doable-but-tough is daunting of this age particularly in presence of tough professional lives for all and that is why marriages do not work.

[Rohiniranjan]

Another two both ... divorced twice

Person Y

June 19 1977
4:10 am
delhi


person G

march 10 1973
9:30 am
mumbai

Person G has Second house occupied by Saturn.
Based on my observation of second house , I feel that second marriage did not survive when there are tough planets in it by virtue of their own presence or by aspect to eighth.
Second thing which I have noticed  is that Saturn in 7th house who conventionally is not considered as bad , has always proven to be a deal breaker in my observation.  I have seen many divorce cases with Saturn in seventh house.  May be definition of doable and daunting has to do with it, as it varies with each era. What was doable-but-tough is daunting of this age particularly in presence of tough professional lives for all and that is why marriages do not work.

Hi Certain,

Thanks! Do you have any of the data for second spouses of these or another pair?

That would be interesting to study.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[Rohiniranjan]

14373 humans AA quality data (malefics included mars, saturn, rahu, ketu)

106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%)


76 divorce bitter (100%)
29 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (38%)
24 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (31.6%)


Saturn associated with 7th house in twice as many cases in the first group in comparison to the 2nd group.

[Certain]

14373 humans AA quality data (malefics included mars, saturn, rahu, ketu)

106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%)


76 divorce bitter (100%)
29 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (38%)
24 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (31.6%)


Saturn associated with 7th house in twice as many cases in the first group in comparison to the 2nd group.

Are we talking about first marriage here or second marriage here.
Data is significant if 106 were happily married in second marriage but has no use if they were happy in first marriage.
.
.

[Rohiniranjan]

14373 humans AA quality data (malefics included mars, saturn, rahu, ketu)

106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%)


76 divorce bitter (100%)
29 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (38%)
24 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (31.6%)


Saturn associated with 7th house in twice as many cases in the first group in comparison to the 2nd group.

Are we talking about first marriage here or second marriage here.
Data is significant if 106 were happily married in second marriage but has no use if they were happy in first marriage.
.
.

Dear Friend,

We have drifted quite a bit from the original question in this thread.
The original question was: If the 7th house is studied for the first spouse, which house represents the 2nd or subsequent ones?
If the charts of the 2nd spouse were available, one could meaningfully examine any concordances to further the examination.

The data represents that malefic influences on 2nd or 8th have nothing much to do with whether one will be happily married or not or have bitter divorces.
Also, saturn in the 7th is not very helpful as a warning signal, since more people with saturn in 7th were in the happily married group than in the group with bitter divorces.

Data has drifted, as the discussion has drifted.

The conclusion to me is obvious, Certain! One factor rarely meets the test when larger groups get tested.

This is not the first or second time this is happening, but time in again this has been the case.

People who marry a second time would have had a problem with the first marriage in nearly all cases, wouldn't they? Either the first marriage did not work out, or the first spouse died. One does not need statistical analysis or even testing to conclude so. I hope all agree with that simple and obvious assumption which is the reality.

I am still hopeful that someone somewhere would have reliable data for both spouses who or at least one of them is marrying a second time. Then, if it moves us ahead a bit further, we can proceed to testing the third marriage, which from the looks of it, might be even more difficult to get. The data would have to be reliable, accurate, or else the wheels would just continue to spin and the quest more difficult to achieve.

I do realize, and hopefully others do, that once the charts become available, a group of interested individuals would examine those and see if any concordances and correlations can be found, starting simply with houses and representatives thereof, and also other indicators in the charts.

We all are fairly knowledgeable and cautious astrology afficianados and well aware that in traditional jyotish, there are diversities of opinions, about malefics and even that very interesting pada known as Upapada! 12th or 2nd?

We also realize, I am sure that at that level of examination, it is not just the houses in the lagna/kshetra varga (run of the mill birth chart that all use), but houses oriented from some of the derived houses (BB and padas) but also houses from where the different lords are placed. And other factors.

If it so happens that we find too many confusing or diverse and conflicting signals from the investigation, that is fine too, for it would have indicated to us that there are hidden mines!

It is a lot easier to go with impressions and anecdotal observations, but is that the right or reliable way? Unless astrology is simply entertainment, a concept which I have problems with.

I hope my sharing is not too terse or hurtful. My apologies to any who might have felt it so.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

[Certain]

14373 humans AA quality data (malefics included mars, saturn, rahu, ketu)

106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%)


76 divorce bitter (100%)
29 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (38%)
24 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (31.6%)


Saturn associated with 7th house in twice as many cases in the first group in comparison to the 2nd group.

Are we talking about first marriage here or second marriage here.
Data is significant if 106 were happily married in second marriage but has no use if they were happy in first marriage.
.
.

Dear Friend,

We have drifted quite a bit from the original question in this thread.
The original question was: If the 7th house is studied for the first spouse, which house represents the 2nd or subsequent ones?
If the charts of the 2nd spouse were available, one could meaningfully examine any concordances to further the examination.

The data represents that malefic influences on 2nd or 8th have nothing much to do with whether one will be happily married or not or have bitter divorces.


Rohiniranjan

I do not think I drifted at all. I am still on the point of discussion of second house as second spouse. I had intended to confirm same point here the thread was about.  My whole idea of referring to second house and tough planets as occupants is to find out the concordance of subsequent second marriage from second house.
And that is why I asked if the data you checked  for 106 happily married people if they were married second time or were they happily married first time.
If they were happily married first time, they are not the right subjects for my point which I was trying to emphasize. It will require to analyse couple married happily second time if we have to contemplate second house for second marriage. That was why I had listed those birth dates primarily.

Secondly , We have never ever vouched that one factor is always the final deal breaker.
If we just run through seventh house and saturn together in multiple couples , it for sure would not give make or break conclusion as it is impossible for any one planet to have all the say in one aspect.
Astrology has more confounding factors than others so just one factor data can never help either way, to have confirmation or to reject the hypothesis.

At the same time we still have to assess the significance of weightage of each deal breaker vs each maker. Deal breakers have cumulative effects same as makers's cumulative positive effects.

If we give up analyzing individual factors altogether or just reject their contribution altogether, it will decelerate our learning of weighing of each factor. I would not certainly not validate authenticity of my observation by one planet-one house data for any subject matter but at the same time individual factors need to be recognized and weighed to the apt level.

Also, You have not been harsh at all. it is normal to have such discussion in any thing crucial.
Regards

[Rohiniranjan]

14373 humans AA quality data (malefics included mars, saturn, rahu, ketu)

106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%)


76 divorce bitter (100%)
29 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (38%)
24 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (31.6%)


Saturn associated with 7th house in twice as many cases in the first group in comparison to the 2nd group.

Are we talking about first marriage here or second marriage here.
Data is significant if 106 were happily married in second marriage but has no use if they were happy in first marriage.
.
.

Dear Friend,

We have drifted quite a bit from the original question in this thread.
The original question was: If the 7th house is studied for the first spouse, which house represents the 2nd or subsequent ones?
If the charts of the 2nd spouse were available, one could meaningfully examine any concordances to further the examination.

The data represents that malefic influences on 2nd or 8th have nothing much to do with whether one will be happily married or not or have bitter divorces.


Rohiniranjan

I do not think I drifted at all. I am still on the point of discussion of second house as second spouse. I had intended to confirm same point here the thread was about.  My whole idea of referring to second house and tough planets as occupants is to find out the concordance of subsequent second marriage from second house.
And that is why I asked if the data you checked  for 106 happily married people if they were married second time or were they happily married first time.
If they were happily married first time, they are not the right subjects for my point which I was trying to emphasize. It will require to analyse couple married happily second time if we have to contemplate second house for second marriage. That was why I had listed those birth dates primarily.

Secondly , We have never ever vouched that one factor is always the final deal breaker.
If we just run through seventh house and saturn together in multiple couples , it for sure would not give make or break conclusion as it is impossible for any one planet to have all the say in one aspect.
Astrology has more confounding factors than others so just one factor data can never help either way, to have confirmation or to reject the hypothesis.

At the same time we still have to assess the significance of weightage of each deal breaker vs each maker. Deal breakers have cumulative effects same as makers's cumulative positive effects.

If we give up analyzing individual factors altogether or just reject their contribution altogether, it will decelerate our learning of weighing of each factor. I would not certainly not validate authenticity of my observation by one planet-one house data for any subject matter but at the same time individual factors need to be recognized and weighed to the apt level.

Also, You have not been harsh at all. it is normal to have such discussion in any thing crucial.
Regards

Certain,

The drift as I mentioned was from the original question! The original question was simple and straightforward and it had to do with which bhava represents the 2nd and subsequent spouse! Not about the quality of 2nd marriage, though that is an important question too, but a subsequent one perhaps. Often jyotish examinations and searches become murky when we diverge too much.

Person is more specific than the quality of marriage etc. The latter is a very mixed territory and lot of subjectivity enters. The same marriage , let alone first, second or whichever will have two points of view: husband's and wife's. Then those of the well-wishers, friends, relatives of the husband and those of the wife; then coworkers and on and on. Each may have a valid perspective from their point of view but subjectivity always enters in the picture and even if valid, and varying from one case to another, it is a confusing and delicate area over which many lawyers have gotten rich and increasing richer and many judges have made careers out of and I believe TV serials and movies too! Oh I forgot one more factor! The boy's astrologer and the girl's astrologer! <LOL>

Hence, for starters it is clearer to focus on the person and hence my request for data from a couple one or both of whom have been married twice and through their charts I hoped to find some leads toward WHICH HOUSE REPRESENTS the 2nd spouse! And if we get a combination in which one partner underwent first marriage while the other underwent second marriage, then we actually have a bonus, for obvious reasons!

Please understand, this is not to curb your desire or enthusiasm to discuss other angles and issues, such as nature of 2nd marriage etc. Marriage is a rather complicated relationship and involves probably more houses than just the 7th or even standard astrological factors and melapak etc which does not even take into account more than a few percent of what is available in any given chart, but it seems life-decisions do get made based on simply that! Which is sad, including the outcomes of such decisions!!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

[mysbcrs]

Namasthe,

I got a feeling that the choice of the 2nd house is based on the assumption that the 8th from 7th is to be seen for the longevity of the first marriage.
This sounds too legalistic and unrealistic. A good many of the second marriages used to run concurrently (and still do, although in a far smaller measure. I am talking about maariage and not relationship) with the first.
Of-course if the purpose of the thread is to look at only non-concurrent 2nd/subsequent marriage, it may not make a difference.

The data extracted by RR ji is relevant for the non-concurrent 2nd marriage, since the presence of malefics do not seem to have significantly affected the longevity of the first marriage.

[Rohiniranjan]

Namasthe,

I got a feeling that the choice of the 2nd house is based on the assumption that the 8th from 7th is to be seen for the longevity of the first marriage.
This sounds too legalistic and unrealistic. A good many of the second marriages used to run concurrently (and still do, although in a far smaller measure. I am talking about maariage and not relationship) with the first.
Of-course if the purpose of the thread is to look at only non-concurrent 2nd/subsequent marriage, it may not make a difference.

The data extracted by RR ji is relevant for the non-concurrent 2nd marriage, since the presence of malefics do not seem to have significantly affected the longevity of the first marriage.

Maybe, I jumped in too soon, earlier and was not liked? :-(

I will wait!

Rohiniranjan

[Certain]

Namasthe,

I got a feeling that the choice of the 2nd house is based on the assumption that the 8th from 7th is to be seen for the longevity of the first marriage.
This sounds too legalistic and unrealistic. A good many of the second marriages used to run concurrently (and still do, although in a far smaller measure. I am talking about maariage and not relationship) with the first.
Of-course if the purpose of the thread is to look at only non-concurrent 2nd/subsequent marriage, it may not make a difference.

The data extracted by RR ji is relevant for the non-concurrent 2nd marriage, since the presence of malefics do not seem to have significantly affected the longevity of the first marriage.

Maybe, I jumped in too soon, earlier and was not liked? :-(

I will wait!

Rohiniranjan

You are absolutely being liked as always. Please continue the next part of the discussion. I was doing the indirect approach to prove second house for second marriage..i.e. tough planets in it causing havoc/delay &nbsp;consistently means the right house is being looked at.
You are right that it is more than 7th house even for first marriage. I am certainly not 100% sure if second house really means second marriage.
I will actively read this thread.
Regards

[Rohiniranjan]

Namasthe,

I got a feeling that the choice of the 2nd house is based on the assumption that the 8th from 7th is to be seen for the longevity of the first marriage.
This sounds too legalistic and unrealistic. A good many of the second marriages used to run concurrently (and still do, although in a far smaller measure. I am talking about maariage and not relationship) with the first.
Of-course if the purpose of the thread is to look at only non-concurrent 2nd/subsequent marriage, it may not make a difference.

The data extracted by RR ji is relevant for the non-concurrent 2nd marriage, since the presence of malefics do not seem to have significantly affected the longevity of the first marriage.

Maybe, I jumped in too soon, earlier and was not liked? :-(

I will wait!

Rohiniranjan

You are absolutely being liked as always. Please continue the next part of the discussion. I was doing the indirect approach to prove second house for second marriage..i.e. tough planets in it causing havoc/delay  consistently means the right house is being looked at.
You are right that it is more than 7th house even for first marriage. I am certainly not 100% sure if second house really means second marriage.
I will actively read this thread.
Regards

When I initiated this thread, it is not as if I had a "lesson" prepared which I was going to release gradually! No, this is a genuine quest personally as a jyotishi and not something any of us here are certain or sure! We all are exchanging notes and views and our thoughts and hopefully will come up with some definite and more importantly, helpful conclusions and approaches which can be used for instance when someone with a bad premier experience is approaching gingerly to get married a second time and let us say it is an arranged marriage (they still do happen quite a bit, whether arranged by relatives, friends or shadi.xxx cyber-links!), and all the nativity has are say three or four birthdata of prospective matches!

Melapak is fine, but in my experience as a jyotishi fairly limited in scope though important (and not just for matrimony!), and then it boils down to chart to chart analysis and comparison-matching!

Our quest, I presume, will be of great help for jyotishis.

I am still hoping that birthdata of such couples, one of which is involved in a 2nd marriage (or more) if studied with feedback would be of immense help!

Happy Bijoya to All!

May the LIGHT and LOVE of MA shine upon all of us.

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

A question, if I may...

Do we look at different houses for subsequent jobs, careers, diseases?
Some do evaluate different houses for lower and higher education, but is it necessary really?
Marriage, whether, first or subsequent, is marriage.

Just pondering...

Votive

... but, seriously lot of people do remarry and so seeing different people (spouses) from a single house does pose problems, if not confusion.

In the same vein, and perhaps even more frequent are the instances of people having to find work in different sectors etc is fairly common. And many have to undergo retraining, advanced training, at times even in different sectors etc. So, even 3 and 9 or 4 and 9 as some utilize may not serve all the needs (training/education area). In the past it worked out, but society was a lot different and whether marriage or education or work, there used to more stability generally.

Modern astrologers would need to become more aware of these simple realities in life to complete the palette of human experience.

Anyways, that is what I think.

Rohiniranjan

That is where you & votive are bang on!

Astrology and or Jyotish is 'simpler' than what we would like to believe.

The house of marriage always remains the house of marriage, even if its second etc.

But can we still deny the flavours of the other?

My understanding.... NO, they are spoken of in different compartments.

RishiRahul

Rishi ji,

Right from the outset of posting my question here and at other jyotish fora, I was very clear that I was asking the question about the people, not the institution. If you meant by 'other compartments' the relevant varga (D9) and I believe Certain also mentioned the D7 (as heard or read from another astrologer), or whether you were referring to the kalatra-karaka (chara) or even Upapada (UL), my original question still remains unanswered. Hororscope may jyotishi kahaan dekhain second spouse or third spouse?

It is not a silly question, or impractical for that matter. And may give some good hints about 2nd training, 2nd job etc.

For children, it seems the sibling principle does work, so as we both commented somewhere here: 5th house for first born, 7th for 2nd born and so on. It has been reported to work in the case of twins too from what I read (elder even by minutes from 1st and next one from 3rd house of the same chart, their birth chart!

Some have seen the 2nd spouse as enemy of the first one (so 6th house), others as termination of the first relationship (though even that is not black and white). In some communities and olden times, the younger unmarried sister of the dead first wife sometimes customarily stepped in and so we see that the 9th house (3rd from 7th) is to be considered (in the man's chart) as representing the wife.

Such a simple question but we all are scratching our heads and hearts but no clear answers emerging so far. Neither here, nor anywhere else!

I am not trying to minimize or mock any of these discussions, please understand (just in case some are feeling so) nor am I trying to test (as happens in horoscope quizzes) anyone! So, please share your views and musings, freely.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Dear Dada,

Sorry for the sudden silence. The usual me..!

What I meant was that for 1st marriage=7th house
2nd. marriage= 7th. house + 2nd. house
3rd. marriage=7th. house + 9th. house

Now in earlier days of multiple marriages (several wives at the same time, there is a thought saying that second marriage is the 6th. to the 7th, instead of the 8th. house; which I could not test due to lack of data.
Also trying to bring in this would make the study more complicated at this point.

I wasnt mentioning other vargas.

Shobho Bijoya
&nbsp; &nbsp;Rishi

[mysbcrs]

Namasthe,

I got a feeling that the choice of the 2nd house is based on the assumption that the 8th from 7th is to be seen for the longevity of the first marriage.
This sounds too legalistic and unrealistic. A good many of the second marriages used to run concurrently (and still do, although in a far smaller measure. I am talking about maariage and not relationship) with the first.
Of-course if the purpose of the thread is to look at only non-concurrent 2nd/subsequent marriage, it may not make a difference.

The data extracted by RR ji is relevant for the non-concurrent 2nd marriage, since the presence of malefics do not seem to have significantly affected the longevity of the first marriage.

Maybe, I jumped in too soon, earlier and was not liked? :-(

I will wait!

Rohiniranjan

No, not really. I was a bit confused by Certain ji's post on the following data.
"106 happily married (100%)
43 had malefics in 2nd or 8th (40.5%)
39 also had malefic aspects on 2nd or 8th (36.8%) "

If the data relates to first marriage it would mean that the longevity of 40.5% of the marriages are unaffected by presence of strong malefics in 2nd/8th. &nbsp;40.5 although less than 50 is still significantly large to lend credence to the role of malefics.

If the data on the other hand relates to 2nd marriage, then this would mean 59.6% of people were in their 2nd marriage despite not having any malefics in 2nd/8th.