Foretelling or changing the future?

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Foretelling or changing the future?

Post by eye_of_tiger » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:50 pm

Could I please ask one of those of you who are much more knowledgeable than I am about Astrology (and in particular Vedic Astrology) whether or not you think that the following statement is correct?
One of the differences between Western and Eastern (Vedic) Astrology is that while most astrologers in the west believe that through wise astrological guidance a person can change his or her own future, astrologers in the east instead believe that your future cannot be changed, but that it's negative impact on your life can through proper guidance be reduced, or in some cases turned completely around into something much more positive and healthy.
"Can Vedic Astrology Foretell the Future?"

http://hinduism.about.com/od/astrology/ ... future.htm

Particularly note the following sentence.
Can my astrological guidance change the course of events? No, but the right remedy… can diminish the impact of a miss-happening or bring in pleasure back into your life after a span of discord."
Thanking you in advance,

EoT  :smt017

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Re: Foretelling or changing the future?

Post by RishiRahul » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:55 am

eye_of_tiger wrote:Could I please ask one of those of you who are much more knowledgeable than I am about Astrology (and in particular Vedic Astrology) whether or not you think that the following statement is correct?
One of the differences between Western and Eastern (Vedic) Astrology is that while most astrologers in the west believe that through wise astrological guidance a person can change his or her own future, astrologers in the east instead believe that your future cannot be changed, but that it's negative impact on your life can through proper guidance be reduced, or in some cases turned completely around into something much more positive and healthy.
RishiRahul=The major difference between western & eastern is the difference in 'ayanamsa' while computing the zodiac; where westerns adopted 'sayan', and easterns 'nirayan'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayanamsa
We can always make the effort to change destiny, rather try to change the weaker tides of destiny that our limited strengths can handle but not fight against the lashing tides of of destiny, I feel.

If we fall into a lake with a river/ocean, our effort to swim to safety avoiding the impediments there 'intelligently', given the strength we have against the 'might' of the waters, will be there.
Also we will try to avoid the stronger tides/waves when it is impossible to fight its might, so that we can avoid its negative impact.


"Can Vedic Astrology Foretell the Future?"

http://hinduism.about.com/od/astrology/ ... future.htm

Particularly note the following sentence.
Can my astrological guidance change the course of events? No, but the right remedy… can diminish the impact of a miss-happening or bring in pleasure back into your life after a span of discord."
RishiRahul=A change in understanding of whats going on, when its right time to do.
Certain waves/ impediments can be fought against, but not all.
This wisdom/understanding is necessary to steer along in life.

Thanking you in advance,

EoT  :smt017

Dear EoT,

My replies are embedded above. It is a very difficult subject to explain in a post as the reply is very explanative, so in a post the reply might sound 'cryptic'.

Nevertheless, my effort.....

But thank you for asking & being interested. :)
Do pose queries one by one, as more questions can arise from what I said..

RishiRahul
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:03 pm

Thanks Rishi,

I thought that I was only posing one question at a time, which is what is or are the main difference(s) between Western and Eastern astrology.

I am not only asking this question for my own interest or education, but because I feel that I need to have a better grasp upon this subject for the benefit of the members who I am trying to help on both the Psychic Reading and I Need A Hug forums.

If I understand you correctly you are saying that Vedic astrologers believe that while you cannot actually change future events, you can instead change how you view and respond to them in your daily life.

That is very close to what I was taught in that the measure of a person is not to be found what happens to them, but rather in how they respond to and use what happens to them in a positive manner in order to help them to grow and develop.

Only certain waves of destiny or impediments can be successfully or should ever be fought against.

Attempting to swim against some of the stronger opposing currents is not only likely to be a waste of valuable time and energy, but could almost inevitably as well cause much unnecessary and extra suffering for the individual concerned (and shame and dishonour for his or her family).

This is not that very different from the Western belief about the wisdom of not always swimming against the tide, but relaxing and going with the flow and seeing where life leads you.
the difference in 'ayanamsa' while computing the zodiac; where westerns adopted 'sayan', and easterns 'nirayan'.
I am beginning to understand that the main difference between the two disciplines of Western and Eastern astrology is more related to the particular method of calculating a person's birth chart, than it is to the spiritual beliefs and principles on which each of the two systems are based.

How am I going?

EoT  :smt031

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:58 am

Dear EoT,

As far as I can tell, it is not so much a difference in the western and eastern astrological thoughts, but the societal milieu or ambience that separates or colours the approaches! Eastern astrology (Jyotish) has for a very long time had been the territory of priests and hence we see a very strong religious rituals and approaches that form a framework of application. Over the last hundred years or so, jyotish has attracted to it a wider circle of backgrounds from which jyotishis have come. Now we have engineers, doctors, chartered accountants, professional teachers, public servants, businessmen ya-di-ya-da-yada. And some professional psychologists too as also spiritual healers! Jyotish, without losing its crux has reshaped itself somewhat, though the hard core of techniques and fundamentals remains the same! Add the factor of Indian societies and Indian psyche and cultural ethos and pathos and we have the somewhat eclectic modern jyotishis, a few examples of which you must have observed here as well! Additionally, in the past, it had been a 'in the family through generations' kind of practice too; now upstarts like me have some hope of entering the field too, a field that is gaining more transparency (like most other educational endeavours and disciplines) and through books and articles and message board sharings etc -- access to what was once a jealously and zealously guarded vault has cracked a bit open! We should be thankful for some of that to the modern doyens like Professor B.V. Raman and more recently Shri K.N. Rao (and students) and Pandit Sanjay Rath who shared researched or family paramparas and laid bare the soul of Jyotish as they learned and saw. There are many others as well, including a few voices from what is known as the Kerala Tradition and its well-kept secrets.

Western astrology has had a similar path too, and in past two centuries we have seen the likes of Alan Leo, Sepharial (a pen-name), and why should I leave Good Lady Linda Goodman and Sidney Omarr who have made western sun-sign astrology more accessible to the common Joe and Sally and Harish and Prashanti who can dip their noses into astro-forecasts while they wait in the grocery cashier line! Western Astrology has also attracted the attention of famous psychologists such as Carl Jung, Eysenck and Nias, and people with clinical psychology backgrounds like Boney and Manley and a few more who moved from Western Tropical to Jyotish and are today well-known teachers and leaders in the field of Jyotish in North America. The lists are not exhaustive by any means. With Alice Bailey and then the humanists and at least one dedicated Buddhist (Erlewine), the western school has had its strong spiritual, mysticism essence too!

Once, long ago, a few writers tried to oversimplify the differences between Eastern and Western astrologies! My shared comments, if the forum allows, appeared at:

http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Cont ... cleID=1060

I liked the last para there, even if I say so myself ;-)
"The most difficult myths to dispel are those that are contemporary, for they speak to us using the language and metaphors of contemporary times! However, the fact remains that astrology of any kind that is capable of describing the 'human experience' is like a Swiss army knife. While some may choose to use a Swiss army knife only for opening cans, but does that limit a Swiss army knife to being merely a can-opener?"

I have a few articles there on fate and free-will, and how astrology works and blah, blah, blah!

The western psyche is too strongly sold-on this efficiency thing! Afterall, we are all products of the Age of Technology, modern science and in a sense suffering from the 'white rabbit syndrome' as depicted in that Master Writer (and schizophrenic!) who conjured up Alice in Wonderland ;-)

Those who believe in reincarnation and so does the illustrious Dr. Brian Weiss -- cannot help but notice that the journey of the soul is not about efficiency, or guaranteed successes in each and every lifetime! Failures teach us more than successes!! ;-)

Lose the watch and grab the camera...! :-)

Love, Light, Reality...!

Rohiniranjan
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Post by RishiRahul » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:14 pm

eye_of_tiger wrote:Thanks Rishi,

I thought that I was only posing one question at a time, which is what is or are the main difference(s) between Western and Eastern astrology.

I am not only asking this question for my own interest or education, but because I feel that I need to have a better grasp upon this subject for the benefit of the members who I am trying to help on both the Psychic Reading and I Need A Hug forums.

If I understand you correctly you are saying that Vedic astrologers believe that while you cannot actually change future events, you can instead change how you view and respond to them in your daily life.
Rishi=I would say that both are meaning the same thing, but saying things in different ways.
My take is that you can change certain things , but cant change some.
I wonder if it is a fact that all/most eastern astrologers mentioned categorically the take you mentioned about eastern astrologers' beliefs?

That is very close to what I was taught in that the measure of a person is not to be found what happens to them, but rather in how they respond to and use what happens to them in a positive manner in order to help them to grow and develop.

Only certain waves of destiny or impediments can be successfully or should ever be fought against.

Attempting to swim against some of the stronger opposing currents is not only likely to be a waste of valuable time and energy, but could almost inevitably as well cause much unnecessary and extra suffering for the individual concerned (and shame and dishonour for his or her family).

This is not that very different from the Western belief about the wisdom of not always swimming against the tide, but relaxing and going with the flow and seeing where life leads you.
Rishi= So you understand where the supposed 'difference' is actually not.
the difference in 'ayanamsa' while computing the zodiac; where westerns adopted 'sayan', and easterns 'nirayan'.
I am beginning to understand that the main difference between the two disciplines of Western and Eastern astrology is more related to the particular method of calculating a person's birth chart, than it is to the spiritual beliefs and principles on which each of the two systems are based.

How am I going?

EoT  :smt031
Dear EoT,

Doing quite good! I presume. :smt003  And nice questions!

While I have explained the 'technical' difference between western & eastern, RR ji has explained the other differences quite vivid.

The rest are embedded above,

Rishi
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Post by eye_of_tiger » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:25 am

Rishi,

I completely agree with everything which you have said above.

However I cannot answer your question which was put to me as follows.
I wonder if it is a fact that all/most eastern astrologers mentioned categorically the take you mentioned about eastern astrologers' beliefs?
I really do not feel that I am qualified to make any definite statements concerning what percentage of Eastern astrologers (as I believe that Eastern astrology is not always Vedic astrology, but only includes it) ascribe to these particular set of beliefs.

So the best that I can do is to wonder about how many Eastern and/or Vedic astrologers hold the same beliefs as each other, along with you.

There are no more questions at this stage.

Thanks again,

EoT  Image

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:07 am

Dear EoT,

As far as I know, "Eastern" would include Jyotish (and its sub-sets, such as KP, System's approach, these two being of recent origins i.e., less than 100 years; as well as older schools such as Parashari, Jaimini (two slightly divergent main-streams of Jyotish) and the Kerala system which have incorporated the mainstreams as well as the Nadi systems)). There is also the Chinese astrology and Mahabote (Burmese) which are quite different from Jyotish and are to the best of my information do not have as many practitioners. There are some Chi-gong (chi-kun) schools that incorporate a Chinese system of astrology as part of their training. There might be a few other smaller variants.

Please also keep in mind that (any) astrology would also have, in scientific terms, a variable that enters and varies from astrologer to astrologer. That would be the role of 'sixth sense', innate as well as cultivated through spiritual practices.

Most probably would have to believe in two related things: reincarnation and the series of actions, aka, KARMa which is believed to create fate. The popularity of remedials would seem to indicate that although fate is undeniably there, it is modifiable through deliberate and conscious actions and decisions. There are also those who believe that such seemingly voluntary actions (the decision to follow remedies) are also indicated in our birthcharts and could be one of the factors, why remedies sometimes work while at other times either fail or not followed through by clients.

The more we try to enter that *forest*, the cloudier it risks becoming...!

RR

[NOTE added: I felt an addendum is required. Some insist that KP and Systems Approach and similar newer approaches using sidereal zodiac must not be called Jyotish since they do divert from the traditional Parashari and Jamini systems, as well as Nadi approaches, so perhaps a more suitable and inclusive term would be Indian Astrology. Astrology as was followed in India! In reality, there are at least a few astrologers who combine several approaches in practice and their approach can be simply called eclectic astrology. To the best of my information they all believe in Karma and Fate. Astrologers do not believe in their ability to CHANGE anyone's fate, but simply guide them to intelligently utilize the prevailing trends as shows up in their horoscopes. For more subtle understanding, one must study about KARMA and how it operates. There is not just one kind of karma which fructifies in a lifetime and has several components, some changeable, or a bit more flexible, while a certain proportion of total karmic burden of the reincarnating soul remains like a locked investment (like a GIC) the rest more liquid (using actuarial terminology). Free-will is connected with this smaller portion and shows up in charts and so on. This has been described several times here and elsewhere.]

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