Parivartana between L9 and L12

[anxious2711]

There is no proper guideline as to how to interpret parivartana yogas. We know that they are classified between Maha, Khala, and Dainya, but there is no explict interpretation expect for the obvious ones:
L1/L10
L9/L10
L2/L11,
etc...

No classical texts give an interpretation of all the combination possible. My question is pertaining to a parivartana yoga between L9/L12. Some say spirituality, some say loss of fortune, others loss of father.

The only classical information I found is from BPHS, where it says that the native's father will die on his 44th year. That is all.

Any other interpretations?

[RishiRahul]

There is no proper guideline as to how to interpret parivartana yogas. We know that they are classified between Maha, Khala, and Dainya, but there is no explict interpretation expect for the obvious ones:
L1/L10
L9/L10
L2/L11,
etc...

No classical texts give an interpretation of all the combination possible. My question is pertaining to a parivartana yoga between L9/L12. Some say spirituality, some say loss of fortune, others loss of father.

The only classical information I found is from BPHS, where it says that the native's father will die on his 44th year. That is all.

Any other interpretations?

Hello,

Parivartana between L9 & L12 is one thing; that planets involved, signs involved, the nature of the planets involved, other lordships involved make a lot of difference; even the charakaraks involved; sighting from Arudha Pada etc makes a lot of difference.

RishiRahul

[Rohiniranjan]

There is no proper guideline as to how to interpret parivartana yogas. We know that they are classified between Maha, Khala, and Dainya, but there is no explict interpretation expect for the obvious ones:
L1/L10
L9/L10
L2/L11,
etc...

No classical texts give an interpretation of all the combination possible. My question is pertaining to a parivartana yoga between L9/L12. Some say spirituality, some say loss of fortune, others loss of father.

The only classical information I found is from BPHS, where it says that the native's father will die on his 44th year. That is all.

Any other interpretations?

Hello,

Parivartana between L9 & L12 is one thing; that planets involved, signs involved, the nature of the planets involved, other lordships involved make a lot of difference; even the charakaraks involved; sighting from Arudha Pada etc makes a lot of difference.

RishiRahul

Just to make it interesting, Rishi, do you think s/he will *get* it?

Love and Light and Levity (Hilarity...!)

Dada

[Rohiniranjan]

There is no proper guideline as to how to interpret parivartana yogas. We know that they are classified between Maha, Khala, and Dainya, but there is no explict interpretation expect for the obvious ones:
L1/L10
L9/L10
L2/L11,
etc...

No classical texts give an interpretation of all the combination possible. My question is pertaining to a parivartana yoga between L9/L12. Some say spirituality, some say loss of fortune, others loss of father.

The only classical information I found is from BPHS, where it says that the native's father will die on his 44th year. That is all.

Any other interpretations?

Anxious jee,

Rather than finding Knowledge in books and lessons (linear transmission?), please seeing and analyzing through charts of individuals who you know and who can give feedback, would be my sincere advice!

Labels are aplenty, in Jyotish and more so have balooned lately, here-there-everywhere!

As we sit next to a mountain of BOOKS (critically important and confusing...?), as we pick up a chart and really study it and then visit and re-visit books or even web-articles, something grows within?

Love, Light, Reality?

Rohiniranjan

[anxious2711]

Thanks for your reply Rishi ji and Rohinirajan ji,

When interpreting a parivartana, I always look at the planets involved and their friendship/enmity. I also look at them from various lagnas and all.

The way I draw my conclusions, is that I look at the same information from many angles, have interpretation from all these angles, and then look at all the interpretations and draw an overall conclusion.

Say there is a parivartana between L11/L12 between Mars in Saggi and Jupiter in Scorpio, I would not rush to predict. I would look at how they are placed from the Moon and the Sun as well. I would look at the friendship of the planets and the two signs involved (water and fire) and finally I would look at the house signification H11 - Kama house: friends, gains, uncle, etc, H12 - Moksha house: losses, foreign, spirituality and then draw a conclusion.

Same way with the L9/L12 exchange I cannot figure out the last part, which is the house interpretations.

The exchange is for a Kumbh native, Sihma rashi, with Sun in saggi. So the parivartana is between Shani/Venus (two friends), one points to lavish expenditures, the other to restraint, between Makara and Tula (earth-air), between darakaraka(Ve) and atmakaraka(Sa). Now the exchange is between L9/L12 from lagna, L3/L6 from Moon and L2/L11 from Sun. I have some interpretations from all other factors it is just the L9/L12 that is confusing. I don't know whether it is the spirituality factor, both houses represent that, foreign/destiny factor, father/loss factor.

@rohiniranjan I always look at real life examples to better understand things, but to be honest, I haven't found many charts with L9/L12 exchanges.

Maybe my methodology is not the best, but I find it easiest to use, very often many factors in chart point to the same thing and that confirms certain things.

I find parivartana the most difficult to interpret as I have not seen enough charts with all parivartana scenarios.

[Rohiniranjan]

Good approach!

[RishiRahul]

Thanks for your reply Rishi ji and Rohinirajan ji,

When interpreting a parivartana, I always look at the planets involved and their friendship/enmity. I also look at them from various lagnas and all.

The way I draw my conclusions, is that I look at the same information from many angles, have interpretation from all these angles, and then look at all the interpretations and draw an overall conclusion.

Say there is a parivartana between L11/L12 between Mars in Saggi and Jupiter in Scorpio, I would not rush to predict. I would look at how they are placed from the Moon and the Sun as well. I would look at the friendship of the planets and the two signs involved (water and fire) and finally I would look at the house signification H11 - Kama house: friends, gains, uncle, etc, H12 - Moksha house: losses, foreign, spirituality and then draw a conclusion.

Same way with the L9/L12 exchange I cannot figure out the last part, which is the house interpretations.

The exchange is for a Kumbh native, Sihma rashi, with Sun in saggi. So the parivartana is between Shani/Venus (two friends), one points to lavish expenditures, the other to restraint, between Makara and Tula (earth-air), between darakaraka(Ve) and atmakaraka(Sa). Now the exchange is between L9/L12 from lagna, L3/L6 from Moon and L2/L11 from Sun. I have some interpretations from all other factors it is just the L9/L12 that is confusing. I don't know whether it is the spirituality factor, both houses represent that, foreign/destiny factor, father/loss factor.

@rohiniranjan I always look at real life examples to better understand things, but to be honest, I haven't found many charts with L9/L12 exchanges.

Maybe my methodology is not the best, but I find it easiest to use, very often many factors in chart point to the same thing and that confirms certain things.

I find parivartana the most difficult to interpret as I have not seen enough charts with all parivartana scenarios.

Hi anxious,

Nice & flexible approach you have adopted.

Why dont you share with us your take on this with an example?


Let us take the parivartana between Shani & Venus in Tula & Makar for a Kumbha Lagna.
My take will be (of course it can be wrong as its a one factor story here):=
The person is probably a loner of sorts being pushed towards the foreign way/country/life tied to the foreign in some very strong way, even leading to settlement, loneliness, giving way to aloneness & emotional development.

If the native has moved to a developed country he will stay there for long. May swing between spirituality & the opposite, with improvement in health, but not totally comfortable.
Reminds me of pathos & 'viraha'; lonely even in crowds.

Of course, the other planets can change course of what predicted.

Whats your take?

RishiRahul

[anxious2711]

Apologies for the delayed answer. I agree with your interpretation, apart from the loner part, which I did not fully grasp.

Also what is pathos and 'viraha'?

My take is: 9H and 12H both represent foreign and foreign travel, so the native will travel a lot and probably settle in countries (yes more then one move) away from his birth place.
9H and 12H both represent faith and spirituality, therefore, spirituality will hold an important part in his life.

9H represents father and 12H represents loss, now I am just guessing here, and I am really not sure about this but I would lean towards saying there will be separation or distance (physical) from father. (most probably not death)

That is just by looking at the parivartana, now if we look at the planets involved, we can say other things, if we look at houses involved we can say more things, and if we look at the chart overall we can also say various things. From this example, being a Kumbha native LL goes to 9th, so the native will have luck, be spiritual and will be attached to his father, and Venus which is YK is in 12th, so the luck factor is mitigated.

That is my take, but I could be completely wrong that is why I am asking for other people's opinion before making such a drastic conclusion.

[Rohiniranjan]

Add the fourth house (and equivalent) in the mix and that can help in catching more fish too. Some consider the 8th too which is depicted as the hole (in the ground) and can symbolize foundations of many kinds (physical, mental, spiritual)...

[RishiRahul]

Thanks for your reply Rishi ji and Rohinirajan ji,

When interpreting a parivartana, I always look at the planets involved and their friendship/enmity. I also look at them from various lagnas and all.

The way I draw my conclusions, is that I look at the same information from many angles, have interpretation from all these angles, and then look at all the interpretations and draw an overall conclusion.

Say there is a parivartana between L11/L12 between Mars in Saggi and Jupiter in Scorpio, I would not rush to predict. I would look at how they are placed from the Moon and the Sun as well. I would look at the friendship of the planets and the two signs involved (water and fire) and finally I would look at the house signification H11 - Kama house: friends, gains, uncle, etc, H12 - Moksha house: losses, foreign, spirituality and then draw a conclusion.

Same way with the L9/L12 exchange I cannot figure out the last part, which is the house interpretations.

The exchange is for a Kumbh native, Sihma rashi, with Sun in saggi. So the parivartana is between Shani/Venus (two friends), one points to lavish expenditures, the other to restraint, between Makara and Tula (earth-air), between darakaraka(Ve) and atmakaraka(Sa). Now the exchange is between L9/L12 from lagna, L3/L6 from Moon and L2/L11 from Sun. I have some interpretations from all other factors it is just the L9/L12 that is confusing. I don't know whether it is the spirituality factor, both houses represent that, foreign/destiny factor, father/loss factor.

@rohiniranjan I always look at real life examples to better understand things, but to be honest, I haven't found many charts with L9/L12 exchanges.

Maybe my methodology is not the best, but I find it easiest to use, very often many factors in chart point to the same thing and that confirms certain things.

I find parivartana the most difficult to interpret as I have not seen enough charts with all parivartana scenarios.

Hi anxious,

Nice & flexible approach you have adopted.

Why dont you share with us your take on this with an example?


Let us take the parivartana between Shani & Venus in Tula & Makar for a Kumbha Lagna.
My take will be (of course it can be wrong as its a one factor story here):=
The person is probably a loner of sorts being pushed towards the foreign way/country/life tied to the foreign in some very strong way, even leading to settlement, loneliness, giving way to aloneness & emotional development.

If the native has moved to a developed country he will stay there for long. May swing between spirituality & the opposite, with improvement in health, but not totally comfortable.
Reminds me of pathos & 'viraha'; lonely even in crowds.

Of course, the other planets can change course of what predicted.

Whats your take?

RishiRahul

Apologies for the delayed answer. I agree with your interpretation, apart from the loner part, which I did not fully grasp.

Also what is pathos and 'viraha'?

My take is: 9H and 12H both represent foreign and foreign travel, so the native will travel a lot and probably settle in countries (yes more then one move) away from his birth place.
9H and 12H both represent faith and spirituality, therefore, spirituality will hold an important part in his life.

9H represents father and 12H represents loss, now I am just guessing here, and I am really not sure about this but I would lean towards saying there will be separation or distance (physical) from father. (most probably not death)

That is just by looking at the parivartana, now if we look at the planets involved, we can say other things, if we look at houses involved we can say more things, and if we look at the chart overall we can also say various things. From this example, being a Kumbha native LL goes to 9th, so the native will have luck, be spiritual and will be attached to his father, and Venus which is YK is in 12th, so the luck factor is mitigated.

That is my take, but I could be completely wrong that is why I am asking for other people's opinion before making such a drastic conclusion.

Hi anxious,

Which means you did not understand the 'loner 'part.

Broadly there 2 kinds of loners.
First= the sad, lonely person.
Second=A person comfortable in the loneliness, which has more understanding of the sad feelings/feelings permeating resulting in healthy pathos/viraha explained best in https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/i ... 408AAGjl7F)
The feeling of loss remain developing a rich state of mind.

The above is due to a 'comfortable'  unafflicted exchange of venus & saturn; which is attained, in this case, after separating from homeland.
possibly.

While Venus & saturn is lagna/12th in exchange with the 4/9; from Al it becomes lord of 5/12 with lords of 9/10.
So it can be being away/loss from homeland or even father.

Regarding spirituality I gave a strong hint by mentioning 'viraha'
A person cannot develop true spirituality without the feelings of pathos & mentioned. I am talking of spirituality catapulted by feeling of pathos & viraha.

Nice interpretations from your side, given the limited details.

RishiRahul

[RishiRahul]

Add the fourth house (and equivalent) in the mix and that can help in catching more fish too. Some consider the 8th too which is depicted as the hole (in the ground) and can symbolize foundations of many kinds (physical, mental, spiritual)...

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Apologies for the delayed answer. I agree with your interpretation, apart from the loner part, which I did not fully grasp.

Also what is pathos and 'viraha'?

My take is: 9H and 12H both represent foreign and foreign travel, so the native will travel a lot and probably settle in countries (yes more then one move) away from his birth place.
9H and 12H both represent faith and spirituality, therefore, spirituality will hold an important part in his life.

9H represents father and 12H represents loss, now I am just guessing here, and I am really not sure about this but I would lean towards saying there will be separation or distance (physical) from father. (most probably not death)

That is just by looking at the parivartana, now if we look at the planets involved, we can say other things, if we look at houses involved we can say more things, and if we look at the chart overall we can also say various things. From this example, being a Kumbha native LL goes to 9th, so the native will have luck, be spiritual and will be attached to his father, and Venus which is YK is in 12th, so the luck factor is mitigated.

That is my take, but I could be completely wrong that is why I am asking for other people's opinion before making such a drastic conclusion.

Dear Anxious,

You sound serious and sincere about astrology and are going about fairly logically it seems from what you shared. I would like to congratulate you and encourage you to continue treating astrology as something logical and not mystical mumbo-jumbo or channeled material (or at least sounding like that ), or for that matter something that has too much spiritual (or SPIRIT-ual!) or even religious underpinnings!!

The ninth house has many indications and has a lord, has several karaka, many aspects (drishti) relationships and on and on and ON! The complication will naturally arise when trying to figure out whether it indicates the father or luck or higher education or spiritual-leanings or long journeys (quite often of the going abroad kind) as well as teachers and pita-tulyas! The best and most convincing way for someone who uses reason and logic, at least mostly if not always (meaning, is a regular person who wears his trousers one leg at a time!) -- the best approach is to find and look for actual horoscopes and get feedback in a friendly and mutually-cooperative forum such as this one and probably others too. The BEST teachers, in my experience, had been individuals who selflessly (mostly?) offer the charts of themselves or nativities with the 'feedback' component which really hits the nail on its head! The internet is a good portal for that kind of learning which for most of us serves as the best guidance in the quest of evidence-based learning! This, in addition to self-study or if you have a human teacher/teachers, then their instructions.

I hope I am not sounding unctorial, but just voicing a caveat that some ignore and then the interminable loop of similar questions and half-resolved confusions continue! That, latter, is a negative aspect of Internet, unfortunately!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[anxious2711]

Thank you rishi ji and rohiniranjan ji.

Best regards,

[Rohiniranjan]

I forget where I read this, possibly in an article in jyotish rags that when there is a mutual reception such as L9 in H12 and L12 in H9, there is a cooperative influence on both houses and the planets act as if they own the occupied houses. This sounds like a 'stretch' because at times the planets might be inimical to one another is one of the many ways. Frankly, this is to be treated as purely theoretical or even conjectural as I have not really looked into this, so just submitting that as a perspective...!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

I forget where I read this, possibly in an article in jyotish rags that when there is a mutual reception such as L9 in H12 and L12 in H9, there is a cooperative influence on both houses and the planets act as if they own the occupied houses. This sounds like a 'stretch' because at times the planets might be inimical to one another is one of the many ways. Frankly, this is to be treated as purely theoretical or even conjectural as I have not really looked into this, so just submitting that as a perspective...!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

I do not remember reading the article, but I think what said is quite logical, and I applied it similarly.

But in addition to that I felt that the abroad factor was more significant as it gives similar answer when we see anxious's example from AL.

A conjunct venus and saturn gives a oneliness regarding love feelings; while thought of a better quality loneliness.

Rishi