Troubling Question...!

[Rohiniranjan]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

Dear Dada,

Yes, in numerology the year 2015 is resonating to 8; called the universal year number.

Am wondering if this should be moved to the numerology forum?


Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

The #8 was incidental, but the troubling question was more pertaining to astrological claims about the ancients, so as per my understanding it belongs to the Vedic astrology forum.

Western astrologers do not make such claims about ancients and quite the opposite, actually! Numerologists speak of the performance of ancients even lesser!

Rest I leave to your executive decision and even executioner decision if you feel it would raise bad blood :-(


Dear Dada,

Yes, in numerology the year 2015 is resonating to 8; called the universal year number.

Am wondering if this should be moved to the numerology forum?


Rishi

[mysbcrs]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

RR ji,

It is quite unlikely that anyone will have empirical evidence to conclude either way on success of ancient divinators. But there are anecdotal pointers indicating successful divinations in vernacular (and Sanskrit) literature, epic and mythology.

IMO,anecdotes in literature can be expected to be based on real-life experiences either of the author or those around him/her. But then it is also natural that in a matter like divination anecdotes that are indicative of successful divination would attract the attention of the author and failures may not have been recorded.

I think it is more important to look at the techniques of making stunningly accurate predictions rather than their rate of success. After all such predictions can not be mere conjectures or hallucinations.

And more importantly the very rules for divinations are divinations themselves. We may not be very much off the mark to conclude that an ecosystem capable of divining the rules was also capable of applying it well.

[Rohiniranjan]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

RR ji,

It is quite unlikely that anyone will have empirical evidence to conclude either way on success of ancient divinators. But there are anecdotal pointers indicating successful divinations in vernacular (and Sanskrit) literature, epic and mythology.

IMO,anecdotes in literature can be expected to be based on real-life experiences either of the author or those around him/her. But then it is also natural that in a matter like divination anecdotes that are indicative of successful divination would attract the attention of the author and failures may not have been recorded.

I think it is more important to look at the techniques of making stunningly accurate predictions rather than their rate of success. After all such predictions can not be mere conjectures or hallucinations.

And more importantly the very rules for divinations are divinations themselves. We may not be very much off the mark to conclude that an ecosystem capable of divining the rules was also capable of applying it well.

CRS ji,

Sometimes what seems like logic and rationalizations is in fact a bowl-ful of assumptions. It is these latter that were questioned and remain troubling!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

The #8 was incidental, but the troubling question was more pertaining to astrological claims about the ancients, so as per my understanding it belongs to the Vedic astrology forum.

Western astrologers do not make such claims about ancients and quite the opposite, actually! Numerologists speak of the performance of ancients even lesser!

Rest I leave to your executive decision and even executioner decision if you feel it would raise bad blood :-(


Dear Dada,

Yes, in numerology the year 2015 is resonating to 8; called the universal year number.

Am wondering if this should be moved to the numerology forum?


Rishi

Dada,

I was just taking your suggestion about the which forum thing; and surely it is in the rightful place  :)  

What you said about the western astrologers not making claims about the ancients is probably true...!?

But then what could be the reasons??
(1) western astrology was not focussed at predicting
or
(2)western astrology was more ancient.
or
some other reason.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

The #8 was incidental, but the troubling question was more pertaining to astrological claims about the ancients, so as per my understanding it belongs to the Vedic astrology forum.

Western astrologers do not make such claims about ancients and quite the opposite, actually! Numerologists speak of the performance of ancients even lesser!

Rest I leave to your executive decision and even executioner decision if you feel it would raise bad blood :-(


Dear Dada,

Yes, in numerology the year 2015 is resonating to 8; called the universal year number.

Am wondering if this should be moved to the numerology forum?


Rishi

Dada,

I was just taking your suggestion about the which forum thing; and surely it is in the rightful place  :)  

What you said about the western astrologers not making claims about the ancients is probably true...!?

But then what could be the reasons??
(1) western astrology was not focussed at predicting
or
(2)western astrology was more ancient.
or
some other reason.

Rishi

I know and I appreciated your kindness about doing so Ignore the executioner joke! You know me better than that <LOL>!

As far as my understanding and observation goes, our western brethren have gone through a soul-searching revival in the recent century or two and 'actively' moved away from what some of them called traditional doom and gloom astrology. This presumably was in keeping with their desh-kal etc. Strong and vocal societal norms acting against astrology as a predictive tool made (and still make) a dicey, unwelcome and even prohibited craft in many places even in USA, for example! Astrologers, therefore had to be cautious in how they approached and portrayed their practice.

The timelines of humanity and societies tend to get fuzzier the farther back we go. Hence only those truly driven dare to probe and in fact doing so makes many individuals nervous and they do not question beliefs and assumptions that get perpetuated and propagated and take on the face of reality! For some/many a lot probably is at stake too for a variety of reasons.

The point (at least mine) is not about stirring up the Canon vs Nikon type camp-discussions (which is a better tool?) or question anyone's personal beliefs or feel-happy points!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[RishiRahul]

Welcome to 2015 the year resonating to #8


Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!


Regards

Rohiniranjan

The #8 was incidental, but the troubling question was more pertaining to astrological claims about the ancients, so as per my understanding it belongs to the Vedic astrology forum.

Western astrologers do not make such claims about ancients and quite the opposite, actually! Numerologists speak of the performance of ancients even lesser!

Rest I leave to your executive decision and even executioner decision if you feel it would raise bad blood :-(


Dear Dada,

Yes, in numerology the year 2015 is resonating to 8; called the universal year number.

Am wondering if this should be moved to the numerology forum?


Rishi

Dada,

I was just taking your suggestion about the which forum thing; and surely it is in the rightful place  :)  

What you said about the western astrologers not making claims about the ancients is probably true...!?

But then what could be the reasons??
(1) western astrology was not focussed at predicting
or
(2)western astrology was more ancient.
or
some other reason.

Rishi

I know and I appreciated your kindness about doing so Ignore the executioner joke! You know me better than that <LOL>!

As far as my understanding and observation goes, our western brethren have gone through a soul-searching revival in the recent century or two and 'actively' moved away from what some of them called traditional doom and gloom astrology. This presumably was in keeping with their desh-kal etc. Strong and vocal societal norms acting against astrology as a predictive tool made (and still make) a dicey, unwelcome and even prohibited craft in many places even in USA, for example! Astrologers, therefore had to be cautious in how they approached and portrayed their practice.

The timelines of humanity and societies tend to get fuzzier the farther back we go. Hence only those truly driven dare to probe and in fact doing so makes many individuals nervous and they do not question beliefs and assumptions that get perpetuated and propagated and take on the face of reality! For some/many a lot probably is at stake too for a variety of reasons.

The point (at least mine) is not about stirring up the Canon vs Nikon type camp-discussions (which is a better tool?) or question anyone's personal beliefs or feel-happy points!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Agreed regarding all points, especially the last one

Rishi

[RishiRahul]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet?

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet? NO!

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed claimed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!

[RishiRahul]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet? NO!

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed claimed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!

We always look upon the ancients as 'better'; a main reason is that we look upon them 'legends' as they get older in our memories.
It is like our personal reality vs subjective reality. They are never the same.

But since we believe that most of the Real astrology Literature has been lost, it is expected that they lay with the ancients before being lost; which go to imply that the ancients were good or even better at predictions.



Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet? NO!

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed claimed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!

We always look upon the ancients as 'better'; a main reason is that we look upon them 'legends' as they get older in our memories.
It is like our personal reality vs subjective reality. They are never the same.

But since we believe that most of the Real astrology Literature has been lost, it is expected that they lay with the ancients before being lost; which go to imply that the ancients were good or even better at predictions.



Rishi

This is at least a three part puzzle of possibilities that you have posed.

We shall address those one by one!

Firstly, please educate me regarding the difference between personal reality and subjective reality! How do you distinguish between those two of yours?

Regards,

RR(dada)

[RishiRahul]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet? NO!

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed claimed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!

We always look upon the ancients as 'better'; a main reason is that we look upon them 'legends' as they get older in our memories.
It is like our personal reality vs subjective reality. They are never the same.

But since we believe that most of the Real astrology Literature has been lost, it is expected that they lay with the ancients before being lost; which go to imply that the ancients were good or even better at predictions.



Rishi

This is at least a three part puzzle of possibilities that you have posed.

We shall address those one by one!

Firstly, please educate me regarding the difference between personal reality and subjective reality! How do you distinguish between those two of yours?

Regards,

RR(dada)

Dada,

Oh! I knew that this would come to question!
What Gandhi ji actually was is better known to the family members (more personal reality, sort of); while what we (later)think of him is different and coloured.; making it difficult to get closer to 'that' personal reality mentioned.

I hope I didnt confuse you much; just cant get to explain this too well.

Rishi

[Rohiniranjan]

Also I wonder if 'the troubling question' has been answered yet? NO!

If not can you reframe it for my our better understanding?

Rishi

Were the ancient divinators really all that accurate as often portrayed claimed to be?

How do you know?? How can you say???

Please share if you know...!

We always look upon the ancients as 'better'; a main reason is that we look upon them 'legends' as they get older in our memories.
It is like our personal reality vs subjective reality. They are never the same.

But since we believe that most of the Real astrology Literature has been lost, it is expected that they lay with the ancients before being lost; which go to imply that the ancients were good or even better at predictions.



Rishi

This is at least a three part puzzle of possibilities that you have posed.

We shall address those one by one!

Firstly, please educate me regarding the difference between personal reality and subjective reality! How do you distinguish between those two of yours?

Regards,

RR(dada)

Dada,

Oh! I knew that this would come to question!
What Gandhi ji actually was is better known to the family members (more personal reality, sort of); while what we (later)think of him is different and coloured.; making it difficult to get closer to 'that' personal reality mentioned.

I hope I didnt confuse you much; just cant get to explain this too well.

Rishi

Hmm..., it sounds like you are mixing-up perceptions and reality! At least in your Gandhiji example!
Perceptions of someone about themselves; they think as their personal reality which might be different from what family and friends perceive, which in turn could be way different from how others perceive; protagonists and antagonists (both being 'others') would differ even more! None of these may represent the true reality which presumably the astrologers claim to fathom! Astrologers' perceptions

Beliefs (such as ancients were accurate) can be suppositions, assumptions (such as that most of original [real?] astrology has gotten lost over time!

It becomes more complex because there was a time when people spoke and communicated but did not write. Many folk-lore are evidence of that and exist in tribes which do not write even today but have folk-lore etc.

Beliefs are fine and I am not questioning their veracity or importance to a certain extant! Much of modern astrology uses beliefs to fill the gaps and such gaps have indicated to many that some of the original could have been lost! BUT not being privy to the original, we cannot really guesstimate HOW MUCH was lost, so saying "most of" or 'much of' (quantitative estimates regarding the extent of loss) are a bit brow-raising claims and/or beliefs.

Actually, I am not as confused as some might like to think. Nor am I trying to axe someones firmly held-on beliefs and assumptions.

Just questioning those, because in doing so, we might at least begin to see the differences between *perceptions and suppositions* and what perhaps is or was the reality!

I am a very practical person and have relied on beliefs too on my path of learning astrology, but have always qualified those and not claimed those to be the reality!

Thanks for your responses and interest in this thread. Our ways might be different or seem different, but our goal is one and the same: Finding the ONE and only ONE reality!!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

[Votive]

One definition of knowledge has always been' justified true belief'!

When the query is who is 'better'? the answers are grey, the water is still muddy on the surface. I sense that as you delve deeper it is as clear as it should be but presently the werewithall to dive and bring back clarity. They certainly had something going which cannot be fathomed!

Moreover there is this smallish story. Misirjee finally after lots of huffing, puffing and effort reached the Guruji and humbly requested the Guruji to offer hi "marg darshan'. With a twinkle in his eye, Guruji said, 'darshan to hum ne diya, marg to khud talash karo' !

May the Sankranti bring whatever it takes to find the Marg , the resources to do so!!

votive