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Votive
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Post by Votive » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:04 am

Like someone mentioned, "It is not uncertainty that bothers me, but the uncertainty that is often seen in occultism camouflaged as certainty"

So succinct,  yet it depicts the entire story.
The human instinct as well as frailty to take a few instances and create a grand generalisation.

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:14 pm

The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
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Post by RishiRahul » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:23 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
This thought is not entirely wrong.

I always felt that many events destined were due to the human psyche typical to the native.

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:20 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
This thought is not entirely wrong.

I always felt that many events destined were due to the human psyche typical to the native.

Rishi
So the projection of the nativity and projection of the astrologer plus projection of Karma (destiny?).

What a merry mix-up indeed!  :smt020
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:22 pm

Votive wrote: ...
I agree, Ranjanda, probably one of the reasons why  astrology remains elusive when we start searching for facts.

votive
Popular myth/belief is that astrology at least in the indian context-background was a 'revealed-realization'. And the way it has generally been laid-out (documented?) -- presumably initially by word of mouth (in its purest sense: oral tradition) and later on captured in script (written) form generally without examples or explanations pretty much across the available spectrum of documentation does seem to corroborate such a conclusion. Most recent writings have relied on the format of trying to second guess the original authors and reverse-engineer their mindsets and thinking and likely logical underpinnings sprinkled with few examples here and there with widely (wildly?) varying parameters, methods of calculations and nuances. A veritable "witches cauldron' recipe! Or recipes?

Internet has simply hastened the process and has escalated the development of confusion as we see increasingly often. I think it has come to a plateau now and that is a good news! ;-)

Over-categorisation, over- and frankly mis-interpretation have been part of the problem. The model that explains and serves well the physical reality when applied to astrology whose span and scope evidently involves a more wholistic terrain (PMS) simply does not serve adequately. A similar rude awakening has and is being experienced by *science* when it was forced to embrace quantum realm and expand its perception from the Newtonian perspective. Now, biological sciences are catching up too, many reluctanctly, as they realize that the quantum form has very different attributes and toxicities from the conventional form of the same element or chemical! Even energy has taken on a new dimension! Still too early to figure out how best to describe the 'elephant' in the room...?

More later on return..., now have to attend to a few Newtonian tasks!
:smt020
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Post by Votive » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:18 am

Yes, Ranjanda, the Newtonian tasks are mundane , real and keep us grounded, Shanidev , perhaps keeps reminding of them.
But to find moments which coexist and tantalise are sufficient indeed.

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Post by RishiRahul » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:53 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
This thought is not entirely wrong.

I always felt that many events destined were due to the human psyche typical to the native.

Rishi
So the projection of the nativity and projection of the astrologer plus projection of Karma (destiny?).

What a merry mix-up indeed!  :smt020
.


Maybe a life and probabilities are given by Nature.

Then it was gauged that the native would react to a destined situation in a way as his/her emotions and will allows at that given point of time.
And the above projection was incorporated into destiny.

Well, I cant explain better in words...

Rishi
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:25 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
This thought is not entirely wrong.

I always felt that many events destined were due to the human psyche typical to the native.

Rishi
So the projection of the nativity and projection of the astrologer plus projection of Karma (destiny?).

What a merry mix-up indeed!  :smt020
.


Maybe a life and probabilities are given by Nature.

Then it was gauged that the native would react to a destined situation in a way as his/her emotions and will allows at that given point of time.
And the above projection was incorporated into destiny.

Well, I cant explain better in words...

Rishi
Study about 'epigenetics'. It is fascinating, and opens the mind and proverbial 'eyes'! ;-)
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:01 pm

Votive wrote:Yes, Ranjanda, the Newtonian tasks are mundane , real and keep us grounded, Shanidev , perhaps keeps reminding of them.
But to find moments which coexist and tantalise are sufficient indeed.
Now is Saturn representative of Newtonian or is there more to shani that transcends (or rather comprises) Newtonian? ;-)

And similarly: sun, moon, mercury... etc.? Genetic (naisargik...?) vs epigenetic??

And the 'fixed' then must be even more primordial, more shaaswat as spirit itself? The veritable fountainhead?

The 3 and 4, the triangle and square, together representing 'shelter' (if you stretch that certain muscle ;-)) are symbolisms that are so inextricably ingrained within astrology that the mind keeps returning to those!  :smt004

***************
As to moments and dimensions, perhaps kshetra (V1) can be a good model. Tantalisingly elusive as well! ;-)
I think the problem is not the tree that fell without making any noise (hence unregistered?) but the absence of attention (awareness). It is the latter that breathes life into the moments and dimensions.
Imagine 15 projectors behind the screen on which village 'talkies' companies used to bring knowledge and entertainment and news to the village-folk in olden days? The movie then was perceived on the kshetra (screen)?
Then more projectors were employed - even different moves and dramas simultaneously. Pandemonium ensued...?

Perhaps attention needs to be trained (weighted observations? Synthesis after analysis??) to turn the watching the maya on the screen as a joy as opposed to it being embraced as a chore...? Like cramming on the night before an examination.
Last edited by Rohiniranjan on Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by RishiRahul » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:21 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The humanist school of tropical astrology (Rudhyar and followers) consider astrology as the projection of the human psyche on to the planetary symbolisms that form the basis of this beautiful language that we call astrology...
This thought is not entirely wrong.

I always felt that many events destined were due to the human psyche typical to the native.

Rishi
So the projection of the nativity and projection of the astrologer plus projection of Karma (destiny?).

What a merry mix-up indeed!  :smt020
.


Maybe a life and probabilities are given by Nature.

Then it was gauged that the native would react to a destined situation in a way as his/her emotions and will allows at that given point of time.
And the above projection was incorporated into destiny.

Well, I cant explain better in words...

Rishi
Study about 'epigenetics'. It is fascinating, and opens the mind and proverbial 'eyes'! ;-)


Thanks :)

Rishi
http://www.rishirahul.com
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Accurate timings & solutions to specific questions

Votive
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Post by Votive » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:38 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Votive wrote:Yes, Ranjanda, the Newtonian tasks are mundane , real and keep us grounded, Shanidev , perhaps keeps reminding of them.
But to find moments which coexist and tantalise are sufficient indeed.
Now is Saturn representative of Newtonian or is there more to shani that transcends (or rather comprises) Newtonian? ;-)

And similarly: sun, moon, mercury... etc.? Genetic (naisargik...?) vs epigenetic??

And the 'fixed' then must be even more primordial, more shaaswat as spirit itself? The veritable fountainhead?

The 3 and 4, the triangle and square, together representing 'shelter' (if you stretch that certain muscle ;-)) are symbolisms that are so inextricably ingrained within astrology that the mind keeps returning to those!  :smt004

***************
As to moments and dimensions, perhaps kshetra (V1) can be a good model. Tantalisingly elusive as well! ;-)
I think the problem is not the tree that fell without making any noise (hence unregistered?) but the absence of attention (awareness). It is the latter that breathes life into the moments and dimensions.
Imagine 15 projectors behind the screen on which village 'talkies' companies used to bring knowledge and entertainment and news to the village-folk in olden days? The movie then was perceived on the kshetra (screen)?
Then more projectors were employed - even different moves and dramas simultaneously. Pandemonium ensued...?

Perhaps attention needs to be trained (weighted observations? Synthesis after analysis??) to turn the watching the maya on the screen as a joy as opposed to it being embraced as a chore...? Like cramming on the night before an examination.
To me, Ranjanda, Saturn , first and foremost, asks each of us to willingly accept all worldly responsibilities with which we are tasked. The duties and chores can be like a 'bandhan' , which has to be compulsorily accepted before I seek Saturnian blessings to transcend the mundane.
As an analogy, unless I first complete the prerequisites of the elementary education that I can be allowed to enroll in higher education.

Saturn, on the number line, is Zero and Jupiter, the infinity. One can tend to be reach the Zero or be infinite but be neither. So Shanidev is much much more than the seemingly observable duties yet the primary taskmaster!

The three/four...the more you solve them, the more fascinating it grows, brilliantly luring, a veritable maze and yet you cannot turn away.
The several dimensions, the count irrelevant, of the beauty around as the journey unfolds....sensed intuitively but not replicable and certainly not peer revievable!!

So much for Science....

votive

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Post by Votive » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:41 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Votive wrote:Yes, Ranjanda, the Newtonian tasks are mundane , real and keep us grounded, Shanidev , perhaps keeps reminding of them.
But to find moments which coexist and tantalise are sufficient indeed.
Now is Saturn representative of Newtonian or is there more to shani that transcends (or rather comprises) Newtonian? ;-)

And similarly: sun, moon, mercury... etc.? Genetic (naisargik...?) vs epigenetic??

And the 'fixed' then must be even more primordial, more shaaswat as spirit itself? The veritable fountainhead?

The 3 and 4, the triangle and square, together representing 'shelter' (if you stretch that certain muscle ;-)) are symbolisms that are so inextricably ingrained within astrology that the mind keeps returning to those!  :smt004

***************
As to moments and dimensions, perhaps kshetra (V1) can be a good model. Tantalisingly elusive as well! ;-)
I think the problem is not the tree that fell without making any noise (hence unregistered?) but the absence of attention (awareness). It is the latter that breathes life into the moments and dimensions.
Imagine 15 projectors behind the screen on which village 'talkies' companies used to bring knowledge and entertainment and news to the village-folk in olden days? The movie then was perceived on the kshetra (screen)?
Then more projectors were employed - even different moves and dramas simultaneously. Pandemonium ensued...?

Perhaps attention needs to be trained (weighted observations? Synthesis after analysis??) to turn the watching the maya on the screen as a joy as opposed to it being embraced as a chore...? Like cramming on the night before an examination.

I wonder if one has to draw parallels from the epigenetic to life, would it be karma or the opportunity of karma?

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:03 am

Votive wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Votive wrote:Yes, Ranjanda, the Newtonian tasks are mundane , real and keep us grounded, Shanidev , perhaps keeps reminding of them.
But to find moments which coexist and tantalise are sufficient indeed.
Now is Saturn representative of Newtonian or is there more to shani that transcends (or rather comprises) Newtonian? ;-)

And similarly: sun, moon, mercury... etc.? Genetic (naisargik...?) vs epigenetic??

And the 'fixed' then must be even more primordial, more shaaswat as spirit itself? The veritable fountainhead?

The 3 and 4, the triangle and square, together representing 'shelter' (if you stretch that certain muscle ;-)) are symbolisms that are so inextricably ingrained within astrology that the mind keeps returning to those!  :smt004

***************
As to moments and dimensions, perhaps kshetra (V1) can be a good model. Tantalisingly elusive as well! ;-)
I think the problem is not the tree that fell without making any noise (hence unregistered?) but the absence of attention (awareness). It is the latter that breathes life into the moments and dimensions.
Imagine 15 projectors behind the screen on which village 'talkies' companies used to bring knowledge and entertainment and news to the village-folk in olden days? The movie then was perceived on the kshetra (screen)?
Then more projectors were employed - even different moves and dramas simultaneously. Pandemonium ensued...?

Perhaps attention needs to be trained (weighted observations? Synthesis after analysis??) to turn the watching the maya on the screen as a joy as opposed to it being embraced as a chore...? Like cramming on the night before an examination.

I wonder if one has to draw parallels from the epigenetic to life, would it be karma or the opportunity of karma?
DKP...?
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:41 pm

Votive wrote:
...
Saturn, on the number line, is Zero and Jupiter, the infinity. One can tend to be reach the Zero or be infinite but be neither. So Shanidev is much much more than the seemingly observable duties yet the primary taskmaster!

The three/four...
... Numbers like life itself can represent the absolute as wel as the relative. The context becomes the driver or determinator, obviously.

Both zero and infinity are in a sense unreal numbers in the absolute sense or in the newtonian-physical-worldly-quantifiable sense. But if we think of those as not just concrete descriptors, they do imply 'segments' or sequences. Zero hinting at there being a layer of possibilities below what is being currently observed or measured; infinity implying the possibility that there exists a segment which is above that which is being currently observed.

Zero also implies contiguity. For instance zero gemini which is the same as 30 taurus, both *points* being non-existent if you think about it. The sandhi or threshold that brings wrinkle of worry on some astrological foreheads while in others it unleashes a freedom from bondage (that you and indeed many associte with Saturn). It may also represent a 'changing of seasons, or changing of guards pr some other form of transition.

*Infinity* similarly indicates information about there being yet another dimension or segment beyond and bove that which is being observed or examined and measured. It becomes a conceptual placeholder of there being 'more' than what meets the eye or mind. This is what you associated with jupiter the symbolic icon of expansion, growth and hope etc.

These are all 'relative' conceptualizations of course, although being 'numerical' generally fall prey to the human mind's penchant for associating numbers with the concrete. Such as 8 being the number of saturn, etc.

It boils down in a sense to contraction (saturn) and expansion (Jupiter).

Or the range of possibilities from the black hole state to the big bang state.

Or more poetically-mystically as the inhaling and exhaling of the Cosmic Creative Essence?

After another cup of coffee, who knows what more sparks might fly...? ;-)

:smt102
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Post by Votive » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:09 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Votive wrote:
...
Saturn, on the number line, is Zero and Jupiter, the infinity. One can tend to be reach the Zero or be infinite but be neither. So Shanidev is much much more than the seemingly observable duties yet the primary taskmaster!

The three/four...
... Numbers like life itself can represent the absolute as wel as the relative. The context becomes the driver or determinator, obviously.

Both zero and infinity are in a sense unreal numbers in the absolute sense or in the newtonian-physical-worldly-quantifiable sense. But if we think of those as not just concrete descriptors, they do imply 'segments' or sequences. Zero hinting at there being a layer of possibilities below what is being currently observed or measured; infinity implying the possibility that there exists a segment which is above that which is being currently observed.

Zero also implies contiguity. For instance zero gemini which is the same as 30 taurus, both *points* being non-existent if you think about it. The sandhi or threshold that brings wrinkle of worry on some astrological foreheads while in others it unleashes a freedom from bondage (that you and indeed many associte with Saturn). It may also represent a 'changing of seasons, or changing of guards pr some other form of transition.

*Infinity* similarly indicates information about there being yet another dimension or segment beyond and bove that which is being observed or examined and measured. It becomes a conceptual placeholder of there being 'more' than what meets the eye or mind. This is what you associated with jupiter the symbolic icon of expansion, growth and hope etc.

These are all 'relative' conceptualizations of course, although being 'numerical' generally fall prey to the human mind's penchant for associating numbers with the concrete. Such as 8 being the number of saturn, etc.

It boils down in a sense to contraction (saturn) and expansion (Jupiter).

Or the range of possibilities from the black hole state to the big bang state.

Or more poetically-mystically as the inhaling and exhaling of the Cosmic Creative Essence?

After another cup of coffee, who knows what more sparks might fly...? ;-)

:smt102
Indeed, Ranjanda, so much being symbolised and signified here.

The breath of the Cosmic Essence, please let the exhilaration continue.

To me Saturn, Jupiter cycles are brilliant, lucid and call for more creativity!

Like the Lagna/Sun cycle gets us a day; the Sun/moon gets us a month; the Solar return gets us the year, similarly, the Saturn/Jupiter 20 year conjunction is significant.

It is interesting that 1296 (108 *12) cycles of Sa/Ju give us an almost 25920 year period, the ayanamasha cycle.

The Sixty year conjunction in the same rashi is also interesting. 432 such cycles bring us the same number. 432 is a common figure in all the so called yuga cycles and so on.

The conjunctions fall in the same trinal set of rashis for almost 240 years (4*60) before they move on the next set of trinal rashis as the 20th century gives way to the 21st, the conjunctions start moving to the Earthy Rashis from the Fiery set which lasted since 1782 or so. Ofcourse, 12 (4*3) such almost 240 year cycles bring us back to the 25920 year number.

The waxing and waning phases of the play between the mighty Saturn and the expanding Jupiter can be intriguing. Well, sorry, numbers do fascinate me and I try to *read* through them often.

votive

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