Is Astrology a product of arrogance?

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Votive
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Post by Votive » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:47 am

Talia wrote::smt005  Umm what was the question again  :smt003
Welcome, Talia, to the dialogue!
A Happy birthday to you too!!

votive

Rohiniranjan
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:42 pm

Votive wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The question was: Is astrology a product of arrogance?

Like the human game of "message relays" participants seem to have lost the context and began focussing on "Does astrology produce arrogance?" :-)

I was hoping that my reference to 'gEocentric' would help participants stay on track, but instead the anagram for the term: Egocentric seemed to have attracted the minds that participated! Although, truly speaking the two attributes, viz., arrogant and egocentric are not true synonyms!

And they say communication is easy! But, what if it is also true for other modalities of human perception, and the spectrum of possibilities within each of the senses of one human to another? Including the scent of a flower (from your other post! I will try to address that there).

So, dear friends, without relying on anecdotal, allegorical fables despite their (often not too obvious) wisdom or falling prey to single factor dependence (huge problem even for jyotishis!) can we instead focus on the opening question of this thread?

Is astrology [the framework] a product [not cause] of arrogance? <LOL>

L&L,

Rohiniranjan
Ranjanda,

This is purely anecdotal!
I sense that the answer to your query is already with you, like the  ancient Shastrarths and the Socratic dialogue , one has to come up with the precise answer!
Almost a decade of interacting with you, Sir!!

And ofcourse, Guru is in Leo.

votive
It's been only ten give or take...? Strange, since it always felt much longer than that!

In a good way, of course &nbsp;:smt020

And, no, the answer is not with me, Votive, and I am certain that the question is not in me alone as well! It is another matter that even avid astrophiles for one reason or the other, ranging from superstition to politics, get nervous or even frankly upset when someone asks such questions!

I am hopeful of learning a bit more, now that the headmaster is in the classroom, ;-), going by the repeating patterns earlier! I have come to know that like me, you have also been a patterns and trends observer, analyser with the karma and dharma (duty) of putting the learning and experience to good use, at times even in the face of opposition!

Ranjanda
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:50 pm

Votive wrote:
Talia wrote::smt005  Umm what was the question again  :smt003
Welcome, Talia, to the dialogue!
A Happy birthday to you too!!

votive
Dear Talia,

Many happy and happier returns of you epoch of enrollment in the curriculum of human experiences! :smt004


&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; :smt113
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Votive
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Post by Votive » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:39 am

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Votive wrote:
Rohiniranjan wrote:The question was: Is astrology a product of arrogance?

Like the human game of "message relays" participants seem to have lost the context and began focussing on "Does astrology produce arrogance?" :-)

I was hoping that my reference to 'gEocentric' would help participants stay on track, but instead the anagram for the term: Egocentric seemed to have attracted the minds that participated! Although, truly speaking the two attributes, viz., arrogant and egocentric are not true synonyms!

And they say communication is easy! But, what if it is also true for other modalities of human perception, and the spectrum of possibilities within each of the senses of one human to another? Including the scent of a flower (from your other post! I will try to address that there).

So, dear friends, without relying on anecdotal, allegorical fables despite their (often not too obvious) wisdom or falling prey to single factor dependence (huge problem even for jyotishis!) can we instead focus on the opening question of this thread?

Is astrology [the framework] a product [not cause] of arrogance? <LOL>

L&L,

Rohiniranjan
Ranjanda,

This is purely anecdotal!
I sense that the answer to your query is already with you, like the  ancient Shastrarths and the Socratic dialogue , one has to come up with the precise answer!
Almost a decade of interacting with you, Sir!!

And ofcourse, Guru is in Leo.

votive
It's been only ten give or take...? Strange, since it always felt much longer than that!

In a good way, of course  :smt020

And, no, the answer is not with me, Votive, and I am certain that the question is not in me alone as well! It is another matter that even avid astrophiles for one reason or the other, ranging from superstition to politics, get nervous or even frankly upset when someone asks such questions!

I am hopeful of learning a bit more, now that the headmaster is in the classroom, ;-), going by the repeating patterns earlier! I have come to know that like me, you have also been a patterns and trends observer, analyser with the karma and dharma (duty) of putting the learning and experience to good use, at times even in the face of opposition!

Ranjanda
Hopefully, the questions will find the answers and the answers the right question.
A time for learning indeed.
Conjuctions, opposition, squares, trines all are as good as teachers provided that the chapter is not closed. The biggest difficulty with arrogance is that learning slows down and stops.

votive

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Talia
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Post by Talia » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:24 pm

Thank-you :)


Also
Hopefully, the questions will find the answers and the answers the right question.
I asked about this a while ago. questions to me are very important as I see them almost as the key to the information sought and revealed in any reading. The wrong question the wrong answer?

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:19 pm

Talia wrote:Thank-you :)


Also
Hopefully, the questions will find the answers and the answers the right question.
I asked about this a while ago. questions to me are very important as I see them almost as the key to the information sought and revealed in any reading. The wrong question the wrong answer?
Well dear friends, in most earthly pursuits including astrology the question is not necessarily right or wrong, but not continuing to ask questions is wrong! The '20 questions' 9by reading-seekers) routine that most web-divinators cringe in horror from are not because of the questions but the process of asking and answering questions! To illustrate:
May 20: Question asked
May 20: Astro asks for full birthdata.
May 25: Seeker provides data
may26: Astro &nbsp;:smt017 asks for clarification since birthtimes are generally not recorded in seconds and the coordinates do not help him/her. The name of the city is required
my 26: Seeker provides the city name and reveals that the time provided was rectified by xyz (who, why etc, particularly the why being unknown to him or never shared by the earlier astro!)
...
...
May 31: After more questions-answers, the reading is given and feedback requested.
June 4: A new question asked by seeker and sketchy to nil feedback given for prior reading!
June 6: New reading given, detailed feedback sought again for prior and current reading.
June 17: Seeker returns from vacation and asks another question...!

At this point the poor astrologer volunteer who has begun answering five other seekers (on same and other forums) blows a gasket or chooses to simply stop answering!

A process that could be resolved in 1-3 hours took nearly ONE MONTH! WHY?

Hence, a face to face reading is the right way to go as opposed to a handle reading for another handle! Many have seen the light!!

The other types of *questions* (non-reading type) and answers too have their own set of problems, but lesser in many ways ;-)

I think psychics, tarot readers, horary astrologers, KP astrologers have better personal karmas since they rarely run into the above scenarios. But I am assuming, of course! &nbsp; :smt004
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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:31 pm

Votive wrote: ...
Hopefully, the questions will find the answers and the answers the right question.
A time for learning indeed.
Conjuctions, opposition, squares, trines all are as good as teachers provided that the chapter is not closed. The biggest difficulty with arrogance is that learning slows down and stops.

votive
In a broad sense, all and any astrological factor can be viewed as a *teacher*, although Jupiter seems to be the preferred favourite of traditional jyotish and venus grudgingly so (Preceptors of the demons as per mythology), although Saturn too taught valuable lessons to a certain king as you know and often the father (sun) and mother (moon) too serve the roles of a teacher in life!

The aspects enumerated by you (and other relationships-sambandhas-bridges), though, at least in my thinking-understanding portray *lessons* and not embody the teacher! :smt018

Arrogance is like the wooden panels that people living in hurricane-regions use to board up their windows and the sand bags that are used to hope and prevent a flood from entering their abodes. Often effective, but these must be renewed and replaced each season in order to maintain their efficacy as temporary barriers...?

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Post by Talia » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:39 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Talia wrote:Thank-you :)


Also
Hopefully, the questions will find the answers and the answers the right question.
I asked about this a while ago. questions to me are very important as I see them almost as the key to the information sought and revealed in any reading. The wrong question the wrong answer?
Well dear friends, in most earthly pursuits including astrology the question is not necessarily right or wrong, but not continuing to ask questions is wrong!
I agree never stop asking unless of course you are a querent lol.
The '20 questions' 9by reading-seekers) routine that most web-divinators cringe in horror from are not because of the questions but the process of asking and answering questions! To illustrate:
May 20: Question asked
May 20: Astro asks for full birthdata.
May 25: Seeker provides data
may26: Astro  :smt017 asks for clarification since birthtimes are generally not recorded in seconds and the coordinates do not help him/her. The name of the city is required
my 26: Seeker provides the city name and reveals that the time provided was rectified by xyz (who, why etc, particularly the why being unknown to him or never shared by the earlier astro!)
...
...
May 31: After more questions-answers, the reading is given and feedback requested.
June 4: A new question asked by seeker and sketchy to nil feedback given for prior reading!
June 6: New reading given, detailed feedback sought again for prior and current reading.
June 17: Seeker returns from vacation and asks another question...!

At this point the poor astrologer volunteer who has begun answering five other seekers (on same and other forums) blows a gasket or chooses to simply stop answering!

A process that could be resolved in 1-3 hours took nearly ONE MONTH! WHY?

Hence, a face to face reading is the right way to go as opposed to a handle reading for another handle! Many have seen the light!!

The other types of *questions* (non-reading type) and answers too have their own set of problems, but lesser in many ways ;-)

I think psychics, tarot readers, horary astrologers, KP astrologers have better personal karmas since they rarely run into the above scenarios. But I am assuming, of course!   :smt004
You  made me grin  :smt003

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Post by Rohiniranjan » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Talia wrote: ...
You  made me grin  :smt003
Of course many modern occultists refuse to believe in karma or linear time and believe that angels, higher beings, gods and demi-gods of mythologies are/were actually *aliens* from parallel universes with different laws of nature operating over there!

Kind of like the alter ego of Clarke Kent!
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Re:

Post by NigelMO4 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:43 pm

Rohiniranjan wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:58 pm
RishiRahul wrote:
Votive wrote:Rishiji,

Perhaps that is what the messenger is trying to convey as atmakaraka!

votive

Dear votive,

Even if the messenger was trying to convey it or not, I have got a valid answer for 'myself' and mercury atmakrak; even if its by fluke!

Thanks guys,

RishiRahul
But the question was and still remains, "Is astrology a product of arrogance?"
What answer did you get for that question?

Are you two good folks implying that atmakaraka gives all answers?

My understanding is that it embodies and encapsulates the questions! ;-)

The answers remain for the organism (J) to seek and find...!!
I do not believe astrology is a product of arrogance but rather the opposite and a product of learning and humans seeking the truth. Right or wrong it has survived hundreds of years, as the old saying goes where there is smoke there is fire. To dismiss astrology is close to dismissing history, science, evolution.
So i believe it is rather the polar opposite do dismiss astrology is the product or arrogance.

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Re: Is Astrology a product of arrogance?

Post by Spirit Seeker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:15 am

नमश्शिवाय|
Votive wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:34 am

I suppose you recall that ancient story of the jyotishi being "cursed" &nbsp;by Ma Parvati for his arrogance of trying to become the Lord!

votive
Dear Votive, I'm an ardent believer of Advaita Vedānta / Siddhānta (i). Thus, there is no distinction between Jīvātma (ii) & Parāmātma (iii), it's just that we are yet to realize/experience this fact, till then we all are said to be Dvaiti's(iv). As you said someone is trying to become lord & then Amba (v) has cursed him, Amba is ever unconditional, Amba has definitely cursed him only to teach him for his arrogance.
RishiRahul wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:49 pm

Whoever is led to believe that he/she can understand Kaal, is arrogant.

Kaal can engulf mortals.

Rishi
Dear RishiRahul Ji, once a Jīvātma realize true being, one is Kāla (vi) himself!... Yes, we humans are with full of Ṣadripu's (vii), right now it's possible only by chanting the holy name. For all these to be removed from us, chanting continuously & thinking / meditating helps us to reach! I should make a habit!!! Till now I didn't have, but I should inculcate it from near future. :smt045
ॐ नमश्शिवाय|
RishiRahul wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:02 am
Votive wrote:My observation is the moment a few predictions come true, the Jyotishi arrogates to him/herself the ability to understand Kaal.

I suppose you recall that ancient story of the jyotishi being "cursed"  by Ma Parvati for his arrogance of trying to become the Lord!

Probably it is human nature...afterall we are speaking o humans and not the 'divine ' within the humans!

votive
Dear votive,

Yes, I agree very much with this. A huge challenge for many........
More so for mercury atmakarak astrologers

Rishi
That's why one has to be very careful with ego. We need to practice a lot!!!

(i) dvaita meaning identifying both Jīvātma & Paramātma are different. Advaita meaning there is no distinction between these two thus any two :smt003 , that's why prefix A is used means which is not dvaita. Dvi/Dve meaning two... Siddhānta meaning a theory, Siddhi meaning a kind of perfection, anta meaning an end/peak, So here it means peak of perfection, that's why we call Siddhāntin.
(ii) & (iii) Jīvātma meaning the soul which is not realized ultimate true / soul, the Paramātma. Ātman meaning soul, Jīva meaning a which has got life. Para means ultimate.
(v) Amba meaning Mother in Sanskrit. We can also use Māta. This Amba eventually became Amma in South India.
(vi) Kāla meaning time
(vii) Ripu meaning enemy, Ṣadripu meaning 6 enemies, here it means 6 enemies of a human body.
Last edited by Spirit Seeker on Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Re:

Post by Rohiniranjan » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:44 am

NigelMO4 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:43 pm
...

I do not believe astrology is a product of arrogance but rather the opposite and a product of learning and humans seeking the truth. Right or wrong it has survived hundreds of years, as the old saying goes where there is smoke there is fire. To dismiss astrology is close to dismissing history, science, evolution.
So i believe it is rather the polar opposite do dismiss astrology is the product or arrogance.
Dear Nigel,

I too do not believe that astrology is a product of human arrogance or EGO(tism)!
Which is not the same as saying (and observing) that knowledge of astrology and even moderate success in understanding it even partially or being a good predictor (even through only using astrology to predict...) -- does not lead to arrogance, whether for a short while or in some cases, life-long! :smt002

Astrology, at least as it is practised in India (not sure by how many or how traditionally by few, many or all *later-day-astrologers*!) is quite unlike history or science! History has always been contaminated by human-touch, and has remained somewhat hostage to the whims and arrogance (egotism) of the humans who were footing the bill! I mean the kings and rulers, native or foreign and I believe geography as well. In geo-cartography for instance, although the land span at equator is the widest, most standard maps we learn in school tend to show the Northern hemisphere a bit over-generously! Guess, where most of these world maps that are now in vogue created...? :)

Science has the advantage of being more stringently peer-reviewed and has been even in the span of past 100-200 years undergone many revisions and widening of horizons! For instance, while Newtonian Scientists (majority) have pooh poohed Quantum Science (many still do!) but even hard-core physicists are opening their minds and expanding their horizons and Nano-technology is helping many areas of science (engineering, Medicine) increasingly and the consumer (including patients) are the beneficiaries!

Astrologers (some) would probably boast that astrology did not need such peer-review or change because those were revealed truths and perfect always! I don't know if such an outlook (bias?) deserves the label of *arrogance* or not, but to each his own perception of Reality?

Happy Holidays!
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Re: Is Astrology a product of arrogance?

Post by Rohiniranjan » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:41 am

Spirit Seeker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:15 am
नमश्शिवाय|
Votive wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:34 am
...
Dear Votive, I'm an ardent believer of Advaita Vedānta / Siddhānta. Thus, there is no distinction between Jīvātma & Parāmātma, it's just that we are yet to realize/experience this fact, till then we all are said to be Dvaiti's. As you said someone is trying to become lord & then Amba has cursed him, Amba is ever unconditional, Amba has definitely cursed him only to teach him for his arrogance.
...
Please allow me, friend...

Votive, as far as I know is not here since the Forum shifted and began again?

This (Swetha's) forum as long as I have been a participant here for decades, has been very GLOBAL and simply look around? We have wonderful and loving human beings who live in U.K., Australia, perhaps New-Zealand, Entire Europe, some even in China or Russia, and INDIA of course?

Most members do not really get turned-on with sanskrit (though they all adore MA) and complicated diatribes and diacriticals?

Honey is way more desirable and attractive than vinegar, even in overly-controlled off-shore forums as seeker, you have already experienced?

Please learn to love us -- we here simply shed our nationalities, personal angsts and biases and simply accept and share that we all are mystics...
Rohiniranjan
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Re: Is Astrology a product of arrogance?

Post by Spirit Seeker » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:17 am

Namaḥśśivāya|
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:41 am
Most members do not really get turned-on with sanskrit (though they all adore MA) and complicated diatribes and diacriticals?
Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, I'm so sorry! I didn't even think of whether the readers over here will not understand what I'm writing. As this is the Vedic Astrology forum, I thought that I can continue. Kindly forgive me. Now, I shall write the elaborate meaning of what I've written already, I'll rewrite & rectify the above post.
Rohiniranjan wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:41 am
Please learn to love us -- we here simply shed our nationalities, personal angsts and biases and simply accept and share that we all are mystics.
Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, Oh yes Of course! Venus is my AK & I'm sure that Venus & Jupiter will teach me... & Yes, by writing above post there was no bad intention in my heart. I thought i could contribute, that's it. :)

Anyway, I'm gonna elaborate the post & thanks

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Re: Is Astrology a product of arrogance?

Post by Rohiniranjan » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:10 am

Bacchay (KID) --

Why not follow the decree of big guy here? Rishi Rahul?
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