lost faith in traditional western astrology

Betrayed · Post by **Betrayed** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:07 pm

I just don't trust traditional western astrology. The according to scientists the positions of Earth and everything around has changed after so many years and the spring equinox has now moved to the middle of April. It's just my observation from the people around that made me quite sure of it. The Aries are nice, the Taureans are quick to anger, the Pisceans tend to pick fights. I dunno XD.

It's got nothing to do with me being grumpy with anything. : ) But it is quite regrettable because I don't really care much about that anymore. XD.

suzisco · Post by **suzisco** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:21 pm

Taureans are slow to anger but when they do finally get round to being angry boy do they go.  I am not very fond of Aries people in general, i find them inconsistant and emotionally labile.  I also think that pisceans lovely and interesting.

Think what i am trying to say that we all find people different in relation to ourselves.

Suzi

Betrayed · Post by **Betrayed** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:36 am

I am inconsistant and emotionally labile. I'm not sure about the others though. Don't get me wrong, this is extremely true, and I'm not offended XD.

I do have to question why my post is suddenly in the western astrology section because I pretty much remember posting this in the nickname mystery section. And this was how I came up with my username XD...

It's about my nickname!!! It's not meant for debate!!! XD

But if you folks wanna continue, well, go on. : ) go google and search for "13th sign ophiuchus" and you'll probably see where I am... not intended to go? Go?... o__O

See, I went off topic. :P

Vishwas · Post by **Vishwas** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Betrayed, the problem with western astrology is, it is still sticking to the Tropical Zodiac, which is a fixed position of the planets, which was last noted when the Greeks were thriving, u can understand how many hundreds of years ago that was. Maybe even three thousand odds years ago.

Now where as Vedic astrology isn't 100% perfect, it is still one of the best available, it uses Sidereal Zodiac, which is useful for finding the more perfect results in astrology.

Now I am no expert, but have been studying this subject for quite some time & have picked up a few points which I have expressed here. Anyone has a more clearer view, would love to hear from them.

Thank you Betrayed for giving me an opportunity to say this & hopefully further discuss with more experienced members here.

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:26 am

[quote="Vishwas"]Betrayed, the problem with western astrology is, it is still sticking to the Tropical Zodiac, which is a fixed position of the planets, which was last noted when the Greeks were thriving, u can understand how many hundreds of years ago that was. Maybe even three thousand odds years ago.

Now where as Vedic astrology isn't 100% perfect, it is still one of the best available, it uses Sidereal Zodiac, which is useful for finding the more perfect results in astrology.

Now I am no expert, but have been studying this subject for quite some time & have picked up a few points which I have expressed here. Anyone has a more clearer view, would love to hear from them.

Thank you Betrayed for giving me an opportunity to say this & hopefully further discuss with more experienced members here.[/quote]

Dear Vishwas,

Many siderealists may agree with what you wrote but I would not dismiss the entire tradition of Western Tropical Astrology that readily or in haste. Even on the matter of the two zodiacs.

It would appear to many that there can only be one zodiac (right?) but I think the red-herring is this reference to zodiac, the sign animal shapes (zoo--zoon-zodiac) that even the most imaginative amongst us have to really work hard at seeing the shapes (Scorpio the mysterious and hidden sign as they lable it, curiously is one of the most obvious and unmistakable when one views the sky

)

I think there are two references: The celestial one has been used by siderealists (dependant on stars and star patterns) including zodiac and hence the reference to the what you see is what you get or the visible zodiac.

Western tropicalists have on the other hand what I called the earth-based palpable zodiac! The season-based zodiac which assigns the beginning point to the first day of spring. This 'zodiac' or dodeca division of the year is not imaginary and actually closer to human experience. It can be felt as the seasons change, year after year.

Perhaps the sense of touch (tropical) and the sense of sight (sidereal) should stop fighting and negating each other but explore as the different facets of human experience which can only enrichen our understanding and growth.

The seasons are created due to the tilt of the earth which brings it closer to sun at times during the year and away from it giving us the seasons. These reverse depending on whether you are in the northern hemisphere or in the southern hemisphere. In a sense, this PALPABLE zodiac or system of dividing the year is local and not general or global, which the other one is.

The tilt of the earth has another property, it wobbles very slowly like a top and thus the pole star changes over the centuries. But each 25000 (approx), the polar cycle repeats and the same reference star becomes the polar star every 25000 or so years. That slow wobble introduces the difference between the visible and the palpable/touchable zodiac which is known as ayanamsha or precession of equinoxes or the movement of the Synetic Vernal Point.

If I had a choice, I would not give up either sensation: Vision or Touch!

Humbly submitted to this august body of the wise ...

Love, Light and Levity ...

Youdah · Post by **Youdah** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:37 pm

One cannot hope to interpret, or disregard, any system by a single fact.  If you say you do not trust Western Astrology simply because the equinox has changed over time, you have missed the point entirely, I say respectfully.  Astrology is the system that gives meaning to the very thing that you use to disregard it.  What does it mean when the equinox position has changed?  THAT is the essence of astrology, the interpretation of that fact.  You are talking about a factor that affects the planet and all who live here.  How can you apply that to a single person?  Only as it affects everyone.  Do a personal chart for yourself, and have an experienced astrologer interpret it.  If you continue to disbelieve, ask an astrologer to do a chart for any significant date in your PAST without telling him/her what happened at that time, and you will see that what has already happened, was already predicted.

Betrayed · Post by **Betrayed** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:09 pm

The proper way to read a book, is from front to back, and whether the reader is willing to finish it.

I have my own life and ambitions. It's a matter of what I do, and how hard I try, to get what I want. I won't believe in predictions that will tell me whether I will win or lose.

I'm much more used to people scolding me for being lazy, pessimistic, making stupid mistakes and hurting them. If what I did was wrong, I would feel very very bad. That's entirely fine with me. I'll learn from my mistakes.

However, it's close to 3 in the morning. And I feel very very offended because you sound like a fanatic/extremist who is forcing your views upon me in absolute rejection.

I have been told down many times in this forum, simply because people don't want to look on both sides of the argument and place themselves in other people's shoes(although a good number of people are very understanding, and I'm not always right). But this is the worst. I feel that I have a complete stranger urging me to see an experienced astrologist despite myself already saying that I don't bother about how the stars control my life or what the equinox does.

I'm sorry. It's rude of me to say all this because you're my elder and more knowledgable and all, but your post makes me feel very upset, esspecially when someone says something like "already predicted."

But then,if your post was directed to everybody instead of just me to gain some knowledge, and was meant to sound friendly(in which it didn't to me),then I've mistaken and apologise. Good night. :P

Youdah · Post by **Youdah** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:41 pm

You make some good points.  But, why are you here?  Aren't you just as closed minded?  Let's try this again.  I do not mean to offend you and that was not my purpose, intent, or mood at the time.  I could not know all the emotions and beliefs behind your statements.  Now that you have said more, allow me to respond.

Astrology is not about pre-ordination.  It's about influences.  For example, if you knew that it was possible that you would have a car accident on a certain day, wouldn't you drive more carefully?  Astrology doesn't predict that you have no choice, that the car accident is inevitable.  It only tells you about the influences that surround you.  It's up to YOU to decide what to do about it.  Personally, I'd take a cab.  :)

Betrayed · Post by **Betrayed** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:30 am

I became interested in the other system a long time ago, when I found out about these "new" system, because the traditional system doesn't relate much to me. So I just to wanted to spread the news to people, everytime saying that "I'm not forcing anyone to believe it", because people are free to believe their own things. By the time I decided that astrology doesn't matter to me, I was alreadly part of this forum with this name, and having some fun at the general section. My mind can't take in what people here write about astrology. It's too... indepth, difficult, confusing. o___O <---leaves me in awe.

The first message on this dicussion was written by me, but on an entirely different post describing usernames. ~___~ which is why I'm very very very very wholesomely troubled. I've to keep explaining that I don't want to debate on this. And when people go against the idea I feel that it's directed towards me, because the root message here is from me.

I already know these theories explaining why the equinox position doesn't affect the system, and a general idea of what sidereal is. The people who posted earlier said more things about these clashing systems. But then no one came to say things like "If you don't believe, do this and that". It sounds forceful, no matter how I think of it. Plus everybody knows that words in capital letters look unfriendly, even if all you wanted to do was emphasize on those words.

Since I feel less grumpy, and slightly stupid from what I said, because of some rest, I'm just going to pat your head as a symbol of getting along. *pat*

Youdah · Post by **Youdah** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:18 am

I think it's really hard to communicate well in writing since it's too easy to misinterpret.  I think that's why they invented smilies.  :)
I'm new here.  I have no idea what posts you've already made or what points you've made, or what posts you've read that made you feel that your viewpoint wasn't valued.  So, thanks for the pat on the head.  I don't feel much like debating, either.  I'm a Pisces, afterall.  You shake my water bowl, and I hide behind a rock.  So, now that we both know that we aren't attacking each other, please tell me what you're talking about.  I've only studied "western" astrology.  I've messed around with different house systems, and they all seem to expand the meanings that I see.  you talk about another system, but I have no idea what you're referring to.  I'd like to know.  I'd like to know just because it sounds interesting.

Betrayed · Post by **Betrayed** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:41 am

I'm not very knowledgable in this "new" system, so this is all I know, or think I know.

Astrology as it is was invented by the greeks from the stars thousands of years ago, when the sun ran through 12 constellations. They divided the 12 constellations equally although they are of different sizes. Since then the positions of everything in the sky has shifted it's position(either that or the Earth has moved somehow). In terms of Astronomy, the constellations are roughly a month behind their original zodiac dates, eg. Aries starts in April instead of March. And finally we have a thirteenth constellation running through the sun called Ophiuchus.

Now that I think of it, the size of the constellations don't really matter. I prefer to think they the signs were all equal in time length, so I prefer to just stick to Sidereal. The early Greeks were probably like small kids playing with a sack full on cornflakes and arranging them to make shapes, and naming them. The divination probably came a lot later. I don't study history so this is really all just part of my wild imagination. Lol.

I was observing people around me but I didn't find any obvious trait to the people born under Ophiuchus. They were like a mixture of happy-go-lucky, and mysterious, with the exception of one annoying little boy who was lacking in basic discipline. If it was sidereal, that kid would be placed in Sagittarius, and the rest of the mysterious guys under Scorpio and I would understand. Ophiuchus doesn't seem very genuine, it kinda spoils the whole balance. So, yeah I prefer just Sidereal.

Anyways, here you go

This is what they call, or I know as "Scientically Correct Astrology". The name's a mouthful. -__- They could have come up with something shorter and nicer to say. XDD
Constellation durations in the Sunny Sunny Sun.
ARIES = APRIL 19 - MAY 13
TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19
GEMINI = JUNE 20 - JULY 20
CANCER = JULY 21 - AUG 9
LEO = AUGUST 10 - SEPTEMBER 15
VIRGO = SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 30  <---the biggest
LIBRA = OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 22
SCORPIO = NOVEMBER 23 - NOVEMBER 29   <---the absurbly smallest
OPHIUCHUS = NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 17   <---the new comer
SAGITTARIUS = DECEMBER 18 - JANUARY 18
CAPRICORN = JANUARY 19 - FEBRUARY 15
AQUARIUS = FEBRUARY 16 - MARCH 11
PISCES = MARCH 12 - APRIL 18

Initially I detested being an Aries when I first knew about Astrology, the traditional one. Before I came across this information I thought I was a Pisces borned reeeeally late. I have no leadership skills, a subject for bully -__-, shy and I spend 99% of my time in the clouds. But then again, I'm self-centered as well. However if I place all my signs in my chart a month back, I still get an Aries in Ascendant which, doesn't do much difference. So it's a 50-50 feeling that both systems are true in a way. Even my friends say that both are true. To me, astrology was more of a self-finding, personality, conformist thing, not a way to do anything mystical like foresight, so.... Sun+Moon+Asc are all that matters. My brain isn't a very good sponge for the more deeper things in astro, though it would be great. Short attention span XD.

In the past I would either be like "I'm Aries, I must win!", "I'm Pisces, I should be more psychic and mysterious". It's so childish haha!! Trying to be what the stars say I am. Now I just act according to what's natural to me without proving what sign I am.

Youdah · Post by **Youdah** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:05 pm

Thank you for that explanation.  It has never occurred to me that astro has changed very much since the Greeks.  In my simple little mind, I just assumed that the science/art had remained intact and without changes all these centuries, and what I have is all that there is.  Of course, now that you talk about it, that isn't a very likely thing, since what could possibly remain unchanged for a thousand years?

Your post sent me googling.  I'd never heard of OPHIUCHUS.  Now I have.  So, I must thank you again.  What I'm seeing is a lot of controversy.  That is something I do not understand.  As astrologers, we give meaning to the smallest asteroid, and even the moon's nodes.  So, why would anyone say that OPHIUCHUS doesn't have significance?  If it's "up there" then it's doing something, and if it isn't doing something, then astrology couldn't have any meaning at all.  I'd think that saying OPHIUCHUS isn't significant would be to arbitrarily decide that mercury didn't mean anything either.  We can't pick and choose what to give significance to.  We can't delete OPHIUCHUS from our charts anymore than we can delete Gemini.  Again, if it's "up there" it's doing something.

Actually, without doing any real study, but just a gut-reaction and quick look at this, I rather like it.  I don't think anyone is a "pure" sun sign.  Every planet, the house it's in, and each aspect modifies the "sun sign" somewhat.  Taking your example, you can't really tell someone's sun sign by their behavior, because what we show to the world is our Ascendant.  At best, we are only guessing the Ascendant, but that's usually poorly guessed if there are strong aspects to the Ascendant that modifies it's "purity" of sign.  

My point is that if I am, for example, not really a Pisces, but an Aquarius, the traits of Aquarius "fit" me just as well.  But, I could explain that with OPHIUCHUS because now my Mercury and Venus are still riding in Pisces, giving me many of the traditional traits of a Piscean, too.

This is very interesting.  I think this will occupy my mind for much of the day.  Maybe for the next week.  Or the next month...  LOL!  Quite frankly, I'm going to have to rethink all that I know about sun signs, and the Zodiac to accommodate this new information.  You see, I sincerely say that OPHIUCHUS cannot be ignored.  If it isn't convenient, or doesn't "fit" into someone's philosophy, then that's their problem. To ignore it is to lose accuracy. We, as astrologers, can't ignore something just because we've never used it before.  If it's "up there" then it's "up there" and we have to deal with it and be flexible enough to change our long cherished notions.  I really don't know why anyone could find a good reason to argue differently.

Wow!  I mean it.  Thank you.

ivan_taniputera · Post by **ivan_taniputera** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:51 am

Dear friends

I am professional astrologer from Indonesia According to my opinion western astrology should be upgraded continuosly because of the earth axis precision. The position and ephemeris of heavenly bodies are also change and shifted.  I have made a compability research based on three divination methods: bazi, ziweidoushu, and western astrology. If I use old books, the accuracy is quite low. So I suggest that you use the new books which is based on more modern research. For example: Gemini (ruled by Mercury) people are not always a quick thinker according to traditional definition. You must check the rest of his/ her birth chart to understand the whole meaning of his character. We can conclude that astrology should be researched and developed continuosly like the work of Gaudgelin or Krafft. May this help you.

Regards,

Ivan T.

Rohiniranjan · Post by **Rohiniranjan** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:44 am

Betrayed wrote:I just don't trust traditional western astrology. The according to scientists the positions of Earth and everything around has changed after so many years and the spring equinox has now moved to the middle of April. It's just my observation from the people around that made me quite sure of it. The Aries are nice, the Taureans are quick to anger, the Pisceans tend to pick fights. I dunno XD.

It's got nothing to do with me being grumpy with anything. : ) But it is quite regrettable because I don't really care much about that anymore. XD.

But tropical/western astrology as practised today is not really traditional. It has come a long way dear Betrayed!

Have you studied the asteroids, the Ebertin system, Locality Astrology and many many other new things!

Don't get too hung up on the sidereal zodiac because even that is out to Jury and Jury is out to lunch!

I am a jyotishi so am married for life to sidereal zodiac (EGAAD! I hope my wife is not reading this post!), but even there I see much fickleness with ayanamsha this, ayanamsha that and other uncertainties!

TEST your beliefs and don't expect the answer to arrive over a weekend or even a few years

Rohiniranjan

rakesh singhal · Post by **rakesh singhal** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:07 pm

Lal kitab and Lifescape Astrology does not take effects of signs or rasis in account.

systems are giving excellent results far better than conventional astrological systems.

a large database is also there at lifescape astrology where different sutras or principles can be checked on actual charts.

Mystic Board

lost faith in traditional western astrology

lost faith in traditional western astrology

Betrayed

hi!

Western Astrology Must Be Upgraded forever

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