Sidereal Astrology believes that the starting point is at a particular fixed position in the background of stars, while Tropical Astrology (which is adopted by the vast majority of Western astrologers) believes that the starting point is the position in the background of stars where the Sun appears in the sky at the vernal equinox (when the Sun appears to cross over from the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere) each year.
Western Astrology embraces the traditional charts and tables, and abandons the traditional emphasis on the positions of celestial bodies. This camp maintains that precession is irrelevant because the qualities of astrology are really based on the seasons, and all the talk about stars and planets has always been just a convenient, symbolic way to keep track of the seasons, and the exact positions of the heavenly bodies really don't matter.
The sidereal camp does the opposite: embracing the traditional precept that the exact positions of the stars and planets are critical, because that's where the energies that affect us originate, and abandoning the traditional charts and tables, changing them to reflect the effects of precession and the true positions of the heavenly bodies, relative to the Earth.
As the Earth spins on its axis, it "wobbles" like a top, causing the vernal equinox to move gradually backwards against the star background, (a phenomenon known as the Precession of the equinoxes) at a rate of about 30 degrees (one Zodiacal sign length) every 2,160 years. Thus the two Zodiacs are aligned only once every 26,000 years, with the most recent alignment being about 2,000 years ago when the zodiac was principally established.
Following is a list of approximate dates that the Sun is in each of the Sidereal Constellations:
Aries -- April 14 - May 14
Taurus-- May 15 - June 14
Gemini-- June 15 - July 16
Cancer-- July 17 - August 16
Leo -- August 17 - September 16
Virgo -- September 17 - October 16
Libra -- October 17 - November 16
Scorpio- November 17 - December 16
Sagittarius -- December 17 - January 13
Capricorn -- January 14 - February 12
Aquarius -- February 13 - March 1
Pisces -- March 15 - April 13
There are twelve Signs in the Tropical Zodiac but they no longer coincide with the Constellations, even though the Signs are called by the same names (creating quite a bit of confusion to beginners). The 360 degrees of the Ecliptic are divided into twelve 30- degree sections, one section for each Sign.
Following is a list of the approximate dates that the Sun is in each of the Tropical Signs:
Aries -- March 21st - April 20th
Taurus --April 21st - May 20th
Gemini --May 21st - June 21st
Cancer --June 22nd - July 22nd
Leo -- July 23rd - August 22nd
Virgo --August 23rd - September 22nd
Libra --September 23rd - October 23rd
Scorpio -- October 24th - November 22nd
Sagittarius -- November 23rd - December 21st
Capricorn -- December 22nd - January 20th
Aquarius -- January 21st - February 18th
Pisces -- February 19th - March 20th
Sidereal Astrology Vs. Tropical Astrology
Moderators: eye_of_tiger, shalimar123
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morton tolson
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:00 pm
sideral vs western astrology
Dear Swetha --
You said: >Western Astrology embraces the traditional charts and tables, and abandons the traditional emphasis on the positions of celestial bodies. This camp maintains that precession is irrelevant >
You must be a sidereal astrologer at heart, because they sometimes assert, as do the Vedic astrologers, that tropical astrology does not think that precession is relevant.
In truth, tropical astrology IS based on precession, because the spring point does slowly progress through the constellations. (!)
Further, the 'aries point' you posted was true -- I think, some 200BC or 400 BC.
Obviously, the tropical chart moves with the seasons, and if someone does not believe that character and temperament also change with the seasons, that is their right.
But, in the service of Truth, both Sidereal and Vedic astrology ignore precession, and therefore most astrology books reference them as an 'older' system.
shantana
You said: >Western Astrology embraces the traditional charts and tables, and abandons the traditional emphasis on the positions of celestial bodies. This camp maintains that precession is irrelevant >
You must be a sidereal astrologer at heart, because they sometimes assert, as do the Vedic astrologers, that tropical astrology does not think that precession is relevant.
In truth, tropical astrology IS based on precession, because the spring point does slowly progress through the constellations. (!)
Further, the 'aries point' you posted was true -- I think, some 200BC or 400 BC.
Obviously, the tropical chart moves with the seasons, and if someone does not believe that character and temperament also change with the seasons, that is their right.
But, in the service of Truth, both Sidereal and Vedic astrology ignore precession, and therefore most astrology books reference them as an 'older' system.
shantana
but how does one decide which system to follow?
isnt it difficult for beginners to grasp the true meaning?
i had been reading up.... in many places( not that u bring it to my notice:)and i realise)... vedic astrologers insist that they r more accurate than western astrology?
whats is the basis for their conclusion? and is it true?
isnt it difficult for beginners to grasp the true meaning?
i had been reading up.... in many places( not that u bring it to my notice:)and i realise)... vedic astrologers insist that they r more accurate than western astrology?
whats is the basis for their conclusion? and is it true?
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morton tolson
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:00 pm
Which is Correct?
As an astrologer I have found that a ‘reading’ is based on intuition, a sort of Yin (feminine) connection between the reader and the readee. The theory behind a chart – the marks we make on paper, represent the Yang (or masculine) side. So different charts are, to my mind, no more than different ‘‘forms’ or structures’, in which the Yin intuition can happily roam. The picture here is somewhat like that of a snake, wiggling down a rabbit burrow, hoping to snare a meal.
Which form is best for the Hunter? A personal choice perhaps?
The Tropical Chart is a form based on a simple and rather obvious synchronization that exists in Nature. We humans are organically based, and the elements that make up our bodies – our cells and our organs, are identical to those found in all other life. And the Clocks for organic growth, for all plants and animals, are the planets. All life forms, for example, follows the cycles of the Moon and the Sun in their growth. The cycles of the Moon govern both the tides and a woman’s menstrual flow. The seasons govern the cycles of vegetation, and the birth of animals.
And our emotional and cognitive growth is also synchronized with the planets. During the last century, Piaget did pioneer work on relating the growth of an infant and a child to – first the months (the Moon) and then the years (the Sun). His work has so impressed other psychologists and philosophers that some are relating these phases of an infants growth to the stages of human society – the magical period, the mythical period, and so forth. Obviously, Mother Nature takes care of all of this for us.
Tropical Astrology simply adds more detail. The terrible twos begin after the first Mars return. We reach puberty with the first Jupiter return, and – later, all of our ‘social growth’ seems to be in sync with Jupiter’s orbit – hence its title as a ‘Social Planet’.
Piaget’s discoveries linking mental development to 7 years, identifies a quarter-cycle of Saturn as the clock – marking out 7, 14, 21 and 28 years. And we all can identify with those stages.
But – when an astrologer looks at a chart, and if he (or she) is honest, they know they cannot predict what the native will do. Free Will and Free Choice still remain. But I find that it is curious how Nature seems to make certain that we wake up at some point, and start to take conscious charge of our lives.
For example, becoming an adult regularly occurs after age 21 (Saturn return); then the stressful forties, usually coincide with transiting Uranus in opposition to natal Uranus, and sometimes with T. Pluto square N. Pluto.
But why do some people fall completely apart, and others seem to triumph? Could it be their free will choice? (ha ha)
And – in conclusion, if my ego felt threatened I might insist that Tropical Astrology is best. But, in truth, it all seems rather amusing and enjoyable to me.
Morton
Which form is best for the Hunter? A personal choice perhaps?
The Tropical Chart is a form based on a simple and rather obvious synchronization that exists in Nature. We humans are organically based, and the elements that make up our bodies – our cells and our organs, are identical to those found in all other life. And the Clocks for organic growth, for all plants and animals, are the planets. All life forms, for example, follows the cycles of the Moon and the Sun in their growth. The cycles of the Moon govern both the tides and a woman’s menstrual flow. The seasons govern the cycles of vegetation, and the birth of animals.
And our emotional and cognitive growth is also synchronized with the planets. During the last century, Piaget did pioneer work on relating the growth of an infant and a child to – first the months (the Moon) and then the years (the Sun). His work has so impressed other psychologists and philosophers that some are relating these phases of an infants growth to the stages of human society – the magical period, the mythical period, and so forth. Obviously, Mother Nature takes care of all of this for us.
Tropical Astrology simply adds more detail. The terrible twos begin after the first Mars return. We reach puberty with the first Jupiter return, and – later, all of our ‘social growth’ seems to be in sync with Jupiter’s orbit – hence its title as a ‘Social Planet’.
Piaget’s discoveries linking mental development to 7 years, identifies a quarter-cycle of Saturn as the clock – marking out 7, 14, 21 and 28 years. And we all can identify with those stages.
But – when an astrologer looks at a chart, and if he (or she) is honest, they know they cannot predict what the native will do. Free Will and Free Choice still remain. But I find that it is curious how Nature seems to make certain that we wake up at some point, and start to take conscious charge of our lives.
For example, becoming an adult regularly occurs after age 21 (Saturn return); then the stressful forties, usually coincide with transiting Uranus in opposition to natal Uranus, and sometimes with T. Pluto square N. Pluto.
But why do some people fall completely apart, and others seem to triumph? Could it be their free will choice? (ha ha)
And – in conclusion, if my ego felt threatened I might insist that Tropical Astrology is best. But, in truth, it all seems rather amusing and enjoyable to me.
Morton
Well i am no expert, but i think both morton & swetha are right here to a certian extent.
I also beleive that the tropical astrology is better than sidereal astrology, & I can very much say that anyone can become an astrologer by learning to do calculations & stuff. But not a real astrologer until & unless they have intution.
Intution is a very impostant part of prediction, which in turn is a very important part of Astrology. With all that i have learned or learning, if i get a person's full name, date of birth & place of birth (& some info about the place if i can't find it) then i can very well tell them about their characteristics, using astrology, numerology & chinese astrology, (obusvily after a lot of calculations) but in the end i would give info about them, which very luckly for me till now all have agreed is about them.
Even after i can say all this, i still cannot predict, now this is causing me a lot of discomfort, & i believe it will to other astrologers too. Recently my Niece was born, & howmuch ever i want i can only do some calculations about her characteristics, which can't be proved for a long time to come. But i wish i could predict more.
I think both westren & vedic astrology can give a person a more clear picture. As Westren usually talks only about Sunsign, & Vedic talks about Sunsign, Moon sign & Ascedent, they use all three to give a more clearer reading about any person. So i like to mix Tropical & Vedic Astrology to get more info about a person. & yes i also use chinese astro & numerology with astro to know more about a person.
Well anyway i don't think anyone (as i have heard most astrologers say) can predict more than 50% to 70% about anyone. There is always free will which decides stuff in life.
I also beleive that the tropical astrology is better than sidereal astrology, & I can very much say that anyone can become an astrologer by learning to do calculations & stuff. But not a real astrologer until & unless they have intution.
Intution is a very impostant part of prediction, which in turn is a very important part of Astrology. With all that i have learned or learning, if i get a person's full name, date of birth & place of birth (& some info about the place if i can't find it) then i can very well tell them about their characteristics, using astrology, numerology & chinese astrology, (obusvily after a lot of calculations) but in the end i would give info about them, which very luckly for me till now all have agreed is about them.
Even after i can say all this, i still cannot predict, now this is causing me a lot of discomfort, & i believe it will to other astrologers too. Recently my Niece was born, & howmuch ever i want i can only do some calculations about her characteristics, which can't be proved for a long time to come. But i wish i could predict more.
I think both westren & vedic astrology can give a person a more clear picture. As Westren usually talks only about Sunsign, & Vedic talks about Sunsign, Moon sign & Ascedent, they use all three to give a more clearer reading about any person. So i like to mix Tropical & Vedic Astrology to get more info about a person. & yes i also use chinese astro & numerology with astro to know more about a person.
Well anyway i don't think anyone (as i have heard most astrologers say) can predict more than 50% to 70% about anyone. There is always free will which decides stuff in life.
And hey i forogt, is there any discussions going on about the "Precession of the equinoxes" or about "Aquarian Age" as we have the next fully completed Precession of the equinoxe between Dec 31st 2012 & Jan 1st 2013. Well Actullay the mayan calender stops on Dec 12 2012, & they say the world is going to change from how we know it now. So if anyone knows a link to that discussion, can u plz pm me the link.
hello Vishwas,
u can always start a new thread on Precession of the "equinoxes" or "aquarian age", people will join in:) as i am sure lot of them r interested in it. me for one:)
ok..i understood what u r trying to say about vedic vs western astrology. but i had a doubt. most of the times i have noticed people come under different signs under both the systems for the same DOB and TOB? and generally astrologers or any site or forum, gives u characteristics for a particular sign. so which shd u consider is true?
u can always start a new thread on Precession of the "equinoxes" or "aquarian age", people will join in:) as i am sure lot of them r interested in it. me for one:)
ok..i understood what u r trying to say about vedic vs western astrology. but i had a doubt. most of the times i have noticed people come under different signs under both the systems for the same DOB and TOB? and generally astrologers or any site or forum, gives u characteristics for a particular sign. so which shd u consider is true?
what about calculations?
Hi Swetha –
The natal chart is really a symbolic system, in which the paper represents the totality of the universe, and the so-called ’planets’ are no more than pointers, representing differing levels of consciousness in a human form.
For example, these same levels are represented as Cakras in the familiar figure of a Yogi, seated in the Lotus position. The ‘planets’ (Cakras) have the following names:
Sahasrara-padma, MERCURY
Ajna, MOON
Visuddha, VENUS
Anahata, SUN
Manipura, JUPITER
Svadhisthana, MARS
Muladhara, SATURN
And the Lotus position of the meditator is no accident because, just like the Lotus plant, Consciousness rises from the mud of matter, and climbs through the river-of-the-mind until it reachs the Light, and there it expands into the thousand petal lotus.
What the Yogi achieves in meditation, the rest of us can do (partly) just by growing and surviving. Certainly our consciousness expands from what it was as an infant, then a child, a teen and an adult. And, for some, growth continues even after that.
The computations that place the planets on the paper of the natal chart suggest that there is some sort of a tie between our growth and the actual planets in the sky. Tropical astrology obviously tells us that our growth moves in sync with the seasons and the planets. And everyone is free to feel however they choose about that.
In the tropical system, our organic, emotional and psychological growth moves in sync with the outer planets? The interpretation, however, seems to relate to the different levels of consciousness we experience. For the symbolic meaning, then, we might move to the cakras which are known to represent horizontal slices through the ‘body’ of ‘Man’ (male and female).
And, as is well known, these slices are Mandalas or Temples – where we live. Does that thought move anyone?
morton
The natal chart is really a symbolic system, in which the paper represents the totality of the universe, and the so-called ’planets’ are no more than pointers, representing differing levels of consciousness in a human form.
For example, these same levels are represented as Cakras in the familiar figure of a Yogi, seated in the Lotus position. The ‘planets’ (Cakras) have the following names:
Sahasrara-padma, MERCURY
Ajna, MOON
Visuddha, VENUS
Anahata, SUN
Manipura, JUPITER
Svadhisthana, MARS
Muladhara, SATURN
And the Lotus position of the meditator is no accident because, just like the Lotus plant, Consciousness rises from the mud of matter, and climbs through the river-of-the-mind until it reachs the Light, and there it expands into the thousand petal lotus.
What the Yogi achieves in meditation, the rest of us can do (partly) just by growing and surviving. Certainly our consciousness expands from what it was as an infant, then a child, a teen and an adult. And, for some, growth continues even after that.
The computations that place the planets on the paper of the natal chart suggest that there is some sort of a tie between our growth and the actual planets in the sky. Tropical astrology obviously tells us that our growth moves in sync with the seasons and the planets. And everyone is free to feel however they choose about that.
In the tropical system, our organic, emotional and psychological growth moves in sync with the outer planets? The interpretation, however, seems to relate to the different levels of consciousness we experience. For the symbolic meaning, then, we might move to the cakras which are known to represent horizontal slices through the ‘body’ of ‘Man’ (male and female).
And, as is well known, these slices are Mandalas or Temples – where we live. Does that thought move anyone?
morton
vishwas
hi -- 
I think prediction is silly, because we all have free will.
What questions do you have about you niece? If you post her date of birth, location and time, I will be happy to take a look at a few questions.
But my answers will only represent what my intuition tells me.
morton
I think prediction is silly, because we all have free will.
What questions do you have about you niece? If you post her date of birth, location and time, I will be happy to take a look at a few questions.
But my answers will only represent what my intuition tells me.
morton
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AMANUSH-FORCE
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:09 pm
copied?
Hi -
I know that some Vedic Astrologers believe what you say. But then there are Egyptian and Babylonian astrologers who might have a different tale to tell.
And, in general, any view that says it is correct and all others are wrong or mere copies -- in my mind, tends to be divisive, and tries to separate us into different camps.
Why can't we all just get along?
Does one system have to better than others? Doen'st Ishwara give us all a free choice -- the right to discover our own personal truths, (with, of course, His wise guidance)?
morton
I know that some Vedic Astrologers believe what you say. But then there are Egyptian and Babylonian astrologers who might have a different tale to tell.
And, in general, any view that says it is correct and all others are wrong or mere copies -- in my mind, tends to be divisive, and tries to separate us into different camps.
Why can't we all just get along?
Does one system have to better than others? Doen'st Ishwara give us all a free choice -- the right to discover our own personal truths, (with, of course, His wise guidance)?
morton
Well thanx for the interest morton, My niece was born on Jan 5th 2006 (yeah almost 1 1/2 months ago) @ 7:42 am in Bangalore, India. Plz tell me what ever u can tell about her, as she is very imp. She is Capricorn & i had made her horo, but as i said, i couldn't make anything out of it. So anything & everything u say will be very helpful & useful.
Well about what u said swetha, i really hate vedic astro for that one issue only, but yes it does that. I am an Aquarian according to westren astro, but in vedic astro i am called Sagittarius, because i was born when the moon was in Sagittarus (i was born in Poorvashada Nakshtra). But to tell the truth i see more of Aquarius in me than Sagittarius. & what limited research i have done on ppl, it shows that they have more characteristics of sun sign's than moon sign's. but yes i would usually see the Sun sign ti tell the characterisics of a person, & prefer sun sign, moon sign & the sing in which Ascendent (or Lagna) is present & from recently i have started seeing the Gotra & Nakshatra they were born in.
My friend in Romania, is a Cancer, but the software Horoscope Interpreter (i don't know which type of astro it uses) it shows him as Leo, & in the same software, it shows me as Pisces. But yes i will see him as Cancer & me as Aquarian.
I hope that answers ur question swetha.
Well about what u said swetha, i really hate vedic astro for that one issue only, but yes it does that. I am an Aquarian according to westren astro, but in vedic astro i am called Sagittarius, because i was born when the moon was in Sagittarus (i was born in Poorvashada Nakshtra). But to tell the truth i see more of Aquarius in me than Sagittarius. & what limited research i have done on ppl, it shows that they have more characteristics of sun sign's than moon sign's. but yes i would usually see the Sun sign ti tell the characterisics of a person, & prefer sun sign, moon sign & the sing in which Ascendent (or Lagna) is present & from recently i have started seeing the Gotra & Nakshatra they were born in.
My friend in Romania, is a Cancer, but the software Horoscope Interpreter (i don't know which type of astro it uses) it shows him as Leo, & in the same software, it shows me as Pisces. But yes i will see him as Cancer & me as Aquarian.
I hope that answers ur question swetha.
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