a question

[handyhippie65]

did god create man, or did man create god? if god created man, which god? every different group of people have a different god,are there more than one god, or are all gods different faces of the same god, or is there no god and we invented it to explain the unexplainable, and to control the masses?

[LordLeckie]

The anthropomorphic (human characteristics given to non-human things) gods of many religions does seem to indicate that many gods/goddesses are made by their people (for example the Gods of Thrace had Blue eyes and Blonde hair in accordance with thats races view of what was superior/beautiful and what they were aware of).

If triangles had gods their gods would have three sides.

In the end though its a pretty good indication that you've made God in your own image when God hates all the same people and things that you do.

I am of the camp that gives a resounding yes to the "we invented it to explain the unexplainable, and to control the masses?" we've found religion to be a tool many times that explained what was then unexplainable (to some anyway, the ancient greeks had some absolutely brilliant intellectuals who did understand things that seemed supernatural to other such as weather and pointed it out often until they were killed)

[pirbid]

I have another question.

I can see that many people seem to have a deep need to believe in something higher, more powerful and omniscient than themselves. I respect that need and see how it can help those deep believers get through hard emotional situations.

What I do not understand is why these same people find it impossible to understand that not all of us have that same need. I was never taught to trust in anything higher, invisible, etc. I was just given tools to get out of trouble by myself whenever possible or accept the inevitable. But I was never taught to believe and I find it impossible. I can see it is a useful psychological tool for those who manage, but for me there is no way to learn it once you have your beliefs and personality formed. I do not feel a need to believe in anything, I feel no emptiness, as they say I must. I just cannot explain to them what it is to be free of the need to believe.

I am not saying one situation is better than the other, just that it is very hard to change from one to the other if you cannot feel or even understand the other side.

Going back to the original question in this topic, I believe men in power will use whatever is more handy in order to control the masses. For a long time it was religion (it still is in many countries) and now it is science, nutrition, health, education and any other issues they can lay hands on.

[suzisco]

you have a point there Pirbid, religion was seen as the opiate for the masses.  Make them work very hard, for almost no pay for the promise of a better life after death.  If you question this ethos then your a sinner and you won't get that better life after death!  Have lots of children to further this ethos to make sure the word gets out good and strong.  Now a days the media is the opiate of the masses and we are told what to think now through a much more powerful medium.  No need for religion now, the money you would pay to the church now goes on the must have latest thing thats being advertised on tv or to the latest political party or gadjet thats going to make your life better......


Boy do i sound  cynical lol!

[looking_glass]

There is a problem. God can exist without religion, so to use the religion and man's quest for power and control as excuses to denigrate the idea of God is not a useful one.

[pirbid]

Not cynical at all, Suzi.

Just today we were watching a French comedy and I felt like crying, for it depicted the absurd extremes people (specially women) go to in order to have what they deem an acceptable image.

The women in the film went through extreme "one-food-at-a-time-only" diets, spent days in bed drinking only soup for better drainage results, were laughed at or sneered at when asking for their size in some fashion boutiques...The list of humiliation, pain and insults endured was endless and left them feeling dejected, forever hungry, faint and depressed, even to the point of trying to commit suicide.

How anyone could turn all these very real problems into a comedy is beyond me: I found it absolutely tasteless and tactless.  :smt011

My point being, this is the result of mass media brain washing, and killing people every year, getting worse and worse, making people into monsters by going in for needless operations. I could cry with frustration every time I think of it, because we are powerless to stop it  

[pirbid]

Why, Looking Glass, where have you read a denigration of God anywhere in these posts? I am only saying there is no way I can make it a real concept for me no matter how hard I try: it has never been a part of me and it would be artificial to adopt it now.

[suzisco]

Looking Glass we would need to disagree there, It would only denigrade god if you believed in him.  As not all the population believes in god its only denigration to those who believe in god.  In todays era we have a wider scope of what to believe and not believe its not like previous era's where I would be disgraced in public for being an unbeliever and shunned in society.  The difference also is that some people who believe in god still feel compelled to pursue those who do not believe in god and show them the error of their ways and there is no laws against this.  This is like aversion therapy and puts many people off the idea of ever contemplating that there might be a god.

[pirbid]

I could not have put it better myself, Zisco! I feel like believers are continually in need of defending their point even if it means telling us others that we are wrong, oh, so wrong. It seems to me like my not believing is seen as an insult by believers because, how can someone even contemplate not believing?

Well, if believers ask for our respect, and I agree they deserve as much respect as any other human being, then I feel entitled to expect as much respect from them. Are they ready to grant it, Looking Glass, or will they keep pointing their finger to those of us hated pagans and atheists? Well, not necessarily one or the other. Agnostics do not attack the idea of God: we just do not care about it one way or the other. Is that so hard to understand? What I am very much against is powerful people using religion to intimidate the poor and the uneducated so they will be forever under their power.

[looking_glass]

I may not have written my words as I wanted to convey them. I mean to say that I believe it is a mistake to use the negative attributes that religion can bring as an argument against the idea of a god existing. Btw, I have no problems with anyone not believing in god. After all, it is everyone's choice. I just think that using the crimes of some religions or some people is a lame excuse that some use. It is true that there are atrocities, but let us look at each person and their choices.

Btw, caring and believing are two very different things. ;)

[Rhutobello]

I feel like believers are continually in need of defending their point even if it means telling us others that we are wrong, oh, so wrong. It seems to me like my not believing is seen as an insult by believers because, how can someone even contemplate not believing?

When most of us believe in something, then we would like that everybody else should believe the same.
I think the thoughts behind it, that all believe the same as me, gives comfort and unity.
For those on top it gives power the more followers a belief has, so they might have their own agenda....it is from here the biggest injustice is done.

I agree that there is both good and bad people in any religion. As I have stated before I more believe that all religions are praying to the same God, because there can only be one who started it all, it is just the names that differ.
Since I have this belief I have no need to convert anyone, and I can at the same time respect any religion as long as they behave according to what most of us say are "Gods will", that we shall respect other, don't steal or lie and so on.
I am far from a saint, but I have no fear for judgement day either.

That was my 2 cent