Nietzsche

The word "Philosophy" is derived from the Ancient Greek - philosophía (compounded from phílos: friend, or lover and sophía: wisdom). To quote from WikiPedia, "Philosophy is the discipline concerned with the questions of what is the right way to live (ethics), what sorts of things ultimately exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics), what is to count as genuine knowledge (epistemology), and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).

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sunmystic
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Nietzsche

Post by sunmystic » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:30 pm

Nietzche was a German philosopher,

Nietzche reasoned that Christianity's emphasis on the afterlife makes its believers less able to cope with eartly life. He argued that the ideal human, the "Ubermensch", would be able to channel passions creatively instead of suppressing them.

What do you guys think? :)

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Nietzsche to be discussed

Post by sunmystic » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:55 pm

Oh and guys, please keep in mind that I am a Christian :) and that I do moderate this forum :) . But at the sametime, I am really open minded about discussing things. Ok?

love,

sunmystic

mysticvirgo
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Re: Nietzsche to be discussed

Post by mysticvirgo » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:50 pm

sunmystic wrote:Oh and guys, please keep in mind that I am a Christian :) and that I do moderate this forum :) . But at the sametime, I am really open minded about discussing things. Ok?

love,

sunmystic
Oh, that is quite alright, SM, we won't hold your beliefs against you.   :smt083:

Yes, I would agree with Niezche on how the promise of the "afterlife" could cause Christians to become dissatisfied with their earthly lives.  I don't think that this is an intrinsic quality of the faith itself, but a managerial strategy the Church had, and still, uses to maintain the size of the flock.  

 Marx's quote "religion is the Opiate of the masses" Relates to this.  ANd the old cliche"Ignorance is bliss"

 Take a hypothetical little pre-christian village.  They know nothing of heaven, the promis of salvation or the christian concept of sin.

 The villagers are happy with thier lives, for they know nothing else. They are happy that thier crops are growing well, they are content with what they have.  

&nbsp;Then a more 'advanced' culture comes along. They teach the villagers "truth" they say that the villagers can't be happy, because true happiness can only be achieved through "<insert diety.prophet here>" Wouldn't you guys like to be happy? &nbsp;

&nbsp;So the villagers start to belive that maybe they aren't happy at all and end up joining <insert religion here>. &nbsp;

&nbsp;So we have wiped out blissfull ingnorance and replaced it with a dissatisfied knowing. &nbsp;<insert religion here> sees this dissatifaction and then says " we have the cure for this, it is called eternal salvation. This will make you happy." They attend the rituals, observe the rites, make the offerings, hand over the tithes. &nbsp;They are still unhappy. They think that maybe they arent attending , observing, tithing and offering enough. &nbsp;Still not happy. &nbsp;

So now the poor villagers are undergoing the Nitzchian earthly dissatisfaction AND they are strung out on Marx's Opiate. &nbsp;

I belive that it is our artisans, those who take what they do above and beyond just an occupation. These , I think, are the essence of Ubermensch. &nbsp;Our greatest composers, Bethoven, Motzart, Bach, Freddy Mercury. I think these are absolutely Ubermensch. &nbsp;Cassinova, the lover, Definatly Ubernesch. The famous motorcycle builder Jesse James.. Ubermesch.

Ya know, after a pause to consider a common thread binding my examples, None of them are what would be considered "religious" by any means. &nbsp;

Mayhaps by creativly expressing thier passions, they have no need of a heavenly reward, they have created personal heavens on earth?

&nbsp;Well, I am out of steam and I pass the talking stick

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Re: Nietzsche to be discussed

Post by sunmystic » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:42 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:
sunmystic wrote:Oh and guys, please keep in mind that I am a Christian :) and that I do moderate this forum :) . But at the sametime, I am really open minded about discussing things. Ok?

love,

sunmystic
Oh, that is quite alright, SM, we won't hold your beliefs against you.   :smt083:

Yes, I would agree with Niezche on how the promise of the "afterlife" could cause Christians to become dissatisfied with their earthly lives.  I don't think that this is an intrinsic quality of the faith itself, but a managerial strategy the Church had, and still, uses to maintain the size of the flock.  

 Marx's quote "religion is the Opiate of the masses" Relates to this.  ANd the old cliche"Ignorance is bliss"

 Take a hypothetical little pre-christian village.  They know nothing of heaven, the promis of salvation or the christian concept of sin.

 The villagers are happy with thier lives, for they know nothing else. They are happy that thier crops are growing well, they are content with what they have.  

 Then a more 'advanced' culture comes along. They teach the villagers "truth" they say that the villagers can't be happy, because true happiness can only be achieved through "<insert diety.prophet here>" Wouldn't you guys like to be happy?  

 So the villagers start to belive that maybe they aren't happy at all and end up joining <insert religion here>.  

 So we have wiped out blissfull ingnorance and replaced it with a dissatisfied knowing.  <insert religion here> sees this dissatifaction and then says " we have the cure for this, it is called eternal salvation. This will make you happy." They attend the rituals, observe the rites, make the offerings, hand over the tithes.  They are still unhappy. They think that maybe they arent attending , observing, tithing and offering enough.  Still not happy.  

So now the poor villagers are undergoing the Nitzchian earthly dissatisfaction AND they are strung out on Marx's Opiate.  

I belive that it is our artisans, those who take what they do above and beyond just an occupation. These , I think, are the essence of Ubermensch.  Our greatest composers, Bethoven, Motzart, Bach, Freddy Mercury. I think these are absolutely Ubermensch.  Cassinova, the lover, Definatly Ubernesch. The famous motorcycle builder Jesse James.. Ubermesch.

Ya know, after a pause to consider a common thread binding my examples, None of them are what would be considered "religious" by any means.  

Mayhaps by creativly expressing thier passions, they have no need of a heavenly reward, they have created personal heavens on earth?

 Well, I am out of steam and I pass the talking stick
Will MV :) that was cool what you said and well said. I quoted what I posted about Nietzsche out of my dictionary. I actually don't know anything about him except that he said that , "Might is right."

I am a Christian yogi mystic and it has been alot of years since I took one only philosophy class in college, so moderating a philosophy forum and creating activity in it is becoming an enteresting challenge :) . I decided to start with Nietzsche because he is considered to be abit of a rogue bugger :) . &nbsp;

So Mysticvirgo, start a philosohy topic and we will see if we can get some post credits discussing it :) .

love you!

sunmystic

mysticvirgo
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Ahh, Sun, . . .

Post by mysticvirgo » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:52 am

you truely know how to motivate a Virgoan, Don'cha? &nbsp;:smt052

&nbsp;I too only had one smester of Philosophy in college, but I had a very very good teacher. Mr. Savchuck. &nbsp;His advice to us on peing able to wrap our brains around philisophical concepts was two shots of Vodka. &nbsp;"Lubricates the Neurons", he would say. &nbsp;Myself an a dozen classmates tested his advice and made it a daily ritual to take two shots each and it really worked! &nbsp;

&nbsp;I hope you will give me a bit of time to come up with a good topic. &nbsp;Most of the good stuff has been philosophised to death. &nbsp;Including death.

&nbsp; &nbsp;Oh, you should try my astrology &nbsp;:smt002

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Post by spiritalk » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:24 pm

Would the dissatisfaction arise from what was offered to them to understand of the afterlife? &nbsp;Or the idea of an afterlife generally?

It seems to me that the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell fall very short of the mark on the afterlife. &nbsp;Those extremes are something that instill more fears than peace in the human populace. &nbsp;(Heaven is for the perfect and no one is perfect. &nbsp;Hell is for the evil, so we must all be evil?).

The earth concept lives in the now of our lives. &nbsp;What is good? &nbsp;What is bad? &nbsp;What is not working to keep us satisfied? &nbsp;Waiting for an unseen afterlife to reap our rewards is not the order we see in our lives right now.
God bless, J

sunmystic
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Re: Ahh, Sun, . . .

Post by sunmystic » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:22 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:you truely know how to motivate a Virgoan, Don'cha?  :smt052

 I too only had one smester of Philosophy in college, but I had a very very good teacher. Mr. Savchuck.  His advice to us on peing able to wrap our brains around philisophical concepts was two shots of Vodka.  "Lubricates the Neurons", he would say.  Myself an a dozen classmates tested his advice and made it a daily ritual to take two shots each and it really worked!  

 I hope you will give me a bit of time to come up with a good topic.  Most of the good stuff has been philosophised to death.  Including death.

   Oh, you should try my astrology  :smt002
I had to quit drinking the hard stuff and wine about 15 years ago, so for me it is a couple of pints of ale :) . Well mysticvirgo :) I have been reading your posts and I am going to have a heck of a time keeping up with you :) . And I have to say that you are a gift to any message board that you bless with your presence.

My Prof's name was Miss Woods :) and she was fun and a sweetheart. That was back in 1969 :)

Mysitc at this point I will take any topic good or otherwise :) and I am pretty good at "winging it" :) even if I have no idea what is going on :) .

Oh and I am virgo also :) 8/31/49. Born in Seattle, Washington State, around 1 am in the morning. If you can do a chart on me we will have to take this to the "Astrology Forum" to publish it and discuss it :) .

love you!

sunmystic

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lovin ya back!

Post by mysticvirgo » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:45 am

Yeah, I love doing readins. Stupid Virgoan love of numbers and probiing of depths LOL. &nbsp; BTW Did this current Merc.Retro.Trans hit you hard? Knocked me for a complete loop. Worse than any I can recall.

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Dissatisfaction and the lure of the afterlife. Redebate good vs evil

Post by mysticvirgo » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:26 am

spiritalk wrote:Would the dissatisfaction arise from what was offered to them to understand of the afterlife? &nbsp;Or the idea of an afterlife generally?
I think that dissatisfaction comes from mankind's desire for "better" Better vocation, better status, better health, better crops, Better mates, Better offspring, better lives, better feelings.
&nbsp; Religions are seldom in a position to better the population in the mundane realm. &nbsp;So they promise betterment on a spiritual plane.
spiritalk wrote:It seems to me that the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell fall very short of the mark on the afterlife. &nbsp;Those extremes are something that instill more fears than peace in the human populace. &nbsp;(Heaven is for the perfect and no one is perfect. &nbsp;Hell is for the evil, so we must all be evil?).
The modern concept of the Christian Heaven and Hell has always seemed to me to be nothing more than the Church creating it's own market. &nbsp;If one thinks into it, it is exactly, in method, the same tactic used by the weightloss products sold on television. &nbsp;"Do you want to continue being fat, unattractive and die an lonley,early death? Of course you don't. If you buy and use our product, we can save you from the torment of obeseity"

"Do you want to spend eternity in the torment of endless flame? Of Course not! Join the Church and we can save you from the consequences of sin!"
spiritalk wrote:The earth concept lives in the now of our lives. &nbsp;What is good? &nbsp;What is bad? &nbsp;What is not working to keep us satisfied? &nbsp;Waiting for an unseen afterlife to reap our rewards is not the order we see in our lives right now.

Ah, the concepts of good and evil have been debated by dozens of Philosophers. Thomas Aquinas is my favorite. &nbsp;In his work "The Summa part II Ethics" he says,

"Whether the act be good or evil depends on the end. The “human reason” pronounces judgment concerning the character of the end, it is, therefore, the law for action. Human acts, however, are meritorious in so far as they promote the purpose of God and his honor. By repeating a good action man acquires a moral habit or a quality which enables him to do the good gladly and easily. "

&nbsp;Therefore, as Men are judged by thier acts and deeds, a 'Good' man is one who abides the will of God. &nbsp;

&nbsp;But herin lies the rub... Who determines if a man's action is truely the will of God, and therfore good OR if the man's deeds are serving of his own ends under the guise of God's Will? &nbsp;

&nbsp;Is Karma God's way of directing us to do good and no ill? &nbsp;

&nbsp;It is my belief that , regardless of the existance of an afterlife or not, We, each and one, have the ability to create, in the here and now, our version of heaven or hell here on earth.

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Post by spiritalk » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:03 pm

And isn't it all created in Natural Law? &nbsp;That which we think, we attract into our lives. &nbsp;What goes around, comes around. &nbsp;All the natural law of cause and effect works. &nbsp;Human beings don't have to do anything, it just happens!

So the judgement of a good man may be found somewhere in the natural law of 'do no harm' to be in God's grace.
God bless, J

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Post by sunmystic » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:27 pm

spiritalk wrote:And isn't it all created in Natural Law?  That which we think, we attract into our lives.  What goes around, comes around.  All the natural law of cause and effect works.  Human beings don't have to do anything, it just happens!

So the judgement of a good man may be found somewhere in the natural law of 'do no harm' to be in God's grace.
There is another Natural Law and that is "Survival of the Fittist." Nietzsche coined it as, "Might is right." And all life in Nature is based on that law. Next is the law that, "Nature cares not about the individual, only about the species."

Mankind is the only animal that thinks that he is special as an individual and that he comes under different laws than the lower (and I smile :) ) animals. Humankind is actually only the fittest because of their ability to work together as a group. And this ability manifests itself in all kinds of different ways and these ways create the Psycho-Social Dynamics of the both the group mind and the individual mind.

Religion is just "one" of the manifestations of mankind attempting to work together as a group :) . The problem begins when religion (or philosophy for that matter) incourages the individual and working together as a group is nolonger the main focus. This then creates conflict between the individual and the group and we have a break down of the group focus.

All conflict is the result of the battle between "I have to promote me", as an individual, and the group. The individual fights to be an individual and the group fights to "maintain the working together as a group", because that is the only reason that mankind/humankind is the fittist to survive.

?

love,

sunmystic

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Re: lovin ya back!

Post by sunmystic » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:46 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:Yeah, I love doing readins. Stupid Virgoan love of numbers and probiing of depths LOL.   BTW Did this current Merc.Retro.Trans hit you hard? Knocked me for a complete loop. Worse than any I can recall.
Yes :) and I got pretty sick. I had to do some yogi magik stuff to survive the experience :) (other than a pint or so of ale, I do not take medications) . What ever is going around is really nasty, even Swetha our beloved message board owner is flat on her back with what ever this stuff is :) .

Love you!

sunmystic

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Post by spiritalk » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:38 pm

sunmystic wrote:
spiritalk wrote:And isn't it all created in Natural Law?  That which we think, we attract into our lives.  What goes around, comes around.  All the natural law of cause and effect works.  Human beings don't have to do anything, it just happens!

So the judgement of a good man may be found somewhere in the natural law of 'do no harm' to be in God's grace.
There is another Natural Law and that is "Survival of the Fittist." Nietzsche coined it as, "Might is right." And all life in Nature is based on that law. Next is the law that, "Nature cares not about the individual, only about the species."

Mankind is the only animal that thinks that he is special as an individual and that he comes under different laws than the lower (and I smile :) ) animals. Humankind is actually only the fittest because of their ability to work together as a group. And this ability manifests itself in all kinds of different ways and these ways create the Psycho-Social Dynamics of the both the group mind and the individual mind.

Religion is just "one" of the manifestations of mankind attempting to work together as a group :) . The problem begins when religion (or philosophy for that matter) incourages the individual and working together as a group is nolonger the main focus. This then creates conflict between the individual and the group and we have a break down of the group focus.

All conflict is the result of the battle between "I have to promote me", as an individual, and the group. The individual fights to be an individual and the group fights to "maintain the working together as a group", because that is the only reason that mankind/humankind is the fittist to survive.

?

love,

sunmystic
So why do the fittest constantly fall? &nbsp;And why does might not conquor all? &nbsp;

No I don't think these concepts can or do replace the natural law. &nbsp;Natural law is more based upon our own free will choices and how they manifest right back at us in their own energy path.

Nature is about material conditions. &nbsp;Natural law has the spirit in place as well.
God bless, J

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Post by sunmystic » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:03 pm

spiritalk wrote:
sunmystic wrote:
spiritalk wrote:And isn't it all created in Natural Law?  That which we think, we attract into our lives.  What goes around, comes around.  All the natural law of cause and effect works.  Human beings don't have to do anything, it just happens!

So the judgement of a good man may be found somewhere in the natural law of 'do no harm' to be in God's grace.
There is another Natural Law and that is "Survival of the Fittist." Nietzsche coined it as, "Might is right." And all life in Nature is based on that law. Next is the law that, "Nature cares not about the individual, only about the species."

Mankind is the only animal that thinks that he is special as an individual and that he comes under different laws than the lower (and I smile :) ) animals. Humankind is actually only the fittest because of their ability to work together as a group. And this ability manifests itself in all kinds of different ways and these ways create the Psycho-Social Dynamics of the both the group mind and the individual mind.

Religion is just "one" of the manifestations of mankind attempting to work together as a group :) . The problem begins when religion (or philosophy for that matter) incourages the individual and working together as a group is nolonger the main focus. This then creates conflict between the individual and the group and we have a break down of the group focus.

All conflict is the result of the battle between "I have to promote me", as an individual, and the group. The individual fights to be an individual and the group fights to "maintain the working together as a group", because that is the only reason that mankind/humankind is the fittist to survive.

?

love,

sunmystic
So why do the fittest constantly fall?  And why does might not conquor all?  

No I don't think these concepts can or do replace the natural law.  Natural law is more based upon our own free will choices and how they manifest right back at us in their own energy path.

Nature is about material conditions.  Natural law has the spirit in place as well.
Humm?

Ok, just for fun, lets say that I am a medium and I am channeling Nietzsche:

"What you are calling "natural law" is a a figment of your imagination and does not actually exist. What you are calling "natural law" is a concept that was created by "Religion" for the sole purpose of promoting religion and religion is an artificial reality that can only be maintained through propaganda."

"The "fittist" do control the world. The "fittist" are the "wealthy", and these wealthy have the highest potential for the survival of their offspring."

love,

sunmystic

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Post by Rhutobello » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:46 pm

Not always...not always :)

You can never keep a society for long under "power", you need to have a "safety valve", if not...then the power to better ones life become greater then the power to suppress.

As for offspring....it is not always the strongest that become the lucky one....more then once the smartest have outdone him/her.......or &nbsp;"lust for another" :)

But yes....we hope for the strong and healthily one, they are the one who bring our genes forward, that will improve our chances to survive, but with the development of our brain we seems not that depended on it anymore :)

Just my thoughts :)

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