Nietzsche

The word "Philosophy" is derived from the Ancient Greek - philosophía (compounded from phílos: friend, or lover and sophía: wisdom). To quote from WikiPedia, "Philosophy is the discipline concerned with the questions of what is the right way to live (ethics), what sorts of things ultimately exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics), what is to count as genuine knowledge (epistemology), and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).

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spiritalk
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Post by spiritalk » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:35 pm

sunmystic wrote:
spiritalk wrote:
sunmystic wrote:
spiritalk wrote:And isn't it all created in Natural Law?  That which we think, we attract into our lives.  What goes around, comes around.  All the natural law of cause and effect works.  Human beings don't have to do anything, it just happens!

So the judgement of a good man may be found somewhere in the natural law of 'do no harm' to be in God's grace.
There is another Natural Law and that is "Survival of the Fittist." Nietzsche coined it as, "Might is right." And all life in Nature is based on that law. Next is the law that, "Nature cares not about the individual, only about the species."

Mankind is the only animal that thinks that he is special as an individual and that he comes under different laws than the lower (and I smile :) ) animals. Humankind is actually only the fittest because of their ability to work together as a group. And this ability manifests itself in all kinds of different ways and these ways create the Psycho-Social Dynamics of the both the group mind and the individual mind.

Religion is just "one" of the manifestations of mankind attempting to work together as a group :) . The problem begins when religion (or philosophy for that matter) incourages the individual and working together as a group is nolonger the main focus. This then creates conflict between the individual and the group and we have a break down of the group focus.

All conflict is the result of the battle between "I have to promote me", as an individual, and the group. The individual fights to be an individual and the group fights to "maintain the working together as a group", because that is the only reason that mankind/humankind is the fittist to survive.

?

love,

sunmystic
So why do the fittest constantly fall?  And why does might not conquor all?  

No I don't think these concepts can or do replace the natural law.  Natural law is more based upon our own free will choices and how they manifest right back at us in their own energy path.

Nature is about material conditions.  Natural law has the spirit in place as well.
Humm?

Ok, just for fun, lets say that I am a medium and I am channeling Nietzsche:

"What you are calling "natural law" is a a figment of your imagination and does not actually exist. What you are calling "natural law" is a concept that was created by "Religion" for the sole purpose of promoting religion and religion is an artificial reality that can only be maintained through propaganda."

"The "fittist" do control the world. The "fittist" are the "wealthy", and these wealthy have the highest potential for the survival of their offspring."

love,

sunmystic


And just suppose....without any religious following.....causes we put into operation through our thoughts, words, deed reap the consequences of the effect of their actions.  That is not about the fittest.  It is about cause and effect in a natural manner.

Silly story....I was driving to a city next to mine one time to serve a congregation gathered there.  The road was under construction and we all ended up lining up for our exit.  Except, of course, for those arrogant people who will drive up the free lane on our left to get in front of everyone else.  They are entitled right?  NOT.  

In my anger, I made a comment to the effect of not liking that kind of driving and would never let that type into the traffic when the time came.  

The next exit was mine and off I went.  I had 2 blocks to get over 3 lanes and in a city of all one way streets it was imperative to make the right turn.  Guess what?  You got it!  No one wanted to let me in either.  LOL

Cause and effect.
God bless, J

sunmystic
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Post by sunmystic » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:23 pm

Rhutobello wrote:Not always...not always :)

You can never keep a society for long under "power", you need to have a "safety valve", if not...then the power to better ones life become greater then the power to suppress.

As for offspring....it is not always the strongest that become the lucky one....more then once the smartest have outdone him/her.......or  "lust for another" :)

But yes....we hope for the strong and healthily one, they are the one who bring our genes forward, that will improve our chances to survive, but with the development of our brain we seems not that depended on it anymore :)

Just my thoughts :)
Your thoughts are always welcome Rhuto!

What is interesting about power and wealth is that they always have to worry about the "Hungry Peasant Syndrome". "To many hungry peasants" and wealth and power ceases to exist. Because you can not eat money, gold, and jewels, and they as an artificial reality cease to have value.

This is also why a healthy middle class is absolutely neccessary :) or things start to drift into Carl Marx's stuff :) .

love,

sunmystic

mysticvirgo
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Isn't Nietzche fun?!

Post by mysticvirgo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:53 am

Ok, just for fun, lets say that I am a medium and I am channeling Nietzsche:

"What you are calling "natural law" is a a figment of your imagination and does not actually exist. What you are calling "natural law" is a concept that was created by "Religion" for the sole purpose of promoting religion and religion is an artificial reality that can only be maintained through propaganda."

"The "fittist" do control the world. The "fittist" are the "wealthy", and these wealthy have the highest potential for the survival of their offspring."

love,

sunmystic


The reason that Neiztche rejects "Natural Law" out of hand is that St.Aquinus, being a relgious man, thought that the ultimate goal of men was the supernatural union with God. That it is the attainment of the heavenly "reward" that should determine if our behaviors and thoughts were morally right or wrong.  If a thought or act abides by "God's Will" as determined by the Church, then it is good.  The witch burnings and inquisitions, though normally considered the sin of murder, having been determined as "God's Will" makes those acts morally good.  

   Nietzche, having a major problem with religion, belived that "God is Dead" and that there is no other life but the one we have here, in the mundane world and that our ultimate goal in life was not to do "good" in order to attain a supernatural "reward" but that moral values are created by humanity as a means to ensure the survival, growth and improvement of the human race.  

The "Burning times" of the Middle Ages, from a Aquinian POV, was morally just and right for it was the "Will of God" that the land be purged of those who did not hold same views of "The Church"

Seen from a Nieztchian POV, the "Burning Times" were morally wrong because the enforcement of "God's Will" through the authority of "The Church" to remove anyone who's thoughts weren't "of God's Will" severely depleted the creative growth of mankind and as such, inhibited the survivabilty of Man.


  Hitler, being of the Nietzchian school of morality, felt moraly justified and right in the elimination of the Jews, the Blacks and the Gays during the Third Riech for he felt that the removal of these peoples would improve the human race, resulting in the long term surviability of mankind.  But seen from the  Aquinian school of morality, since the acts of Hitler and the Nazi regime was not of "God's Will", and therefore evil.

I really don't see either the Neitzchian or Aqunian schools of moral law as correct and complete in and of themselves.  The Aquinian view leaves a "gap" in the logic, there is room in "God's Will" for the complete and utter destruction of Mankind.

  It has been shown, both Biblically and Scientifically, that God's Will seems ( I say seems, for I believe that for any one person or group to presume to KNOW the will of GOD is an invitation to be GODSMACKED) to be for Mankind to survive, grow and improve ourselves.  If GOD did not want any particular thought, morality, action, person, concept,ect, to be, would it not stand to reason that the Divine would not have born it into existance to begin with?

 Nieztche's school of morality is incomplete for it completely ignores GOD all together. He catagorically fails to entertain the idea of GOD altogether and as such, completely misses the truth that even Nihlism and Atheism is vital to whatever the Will of God may be.  

Is it ,perhaps, viable to think that great deal of what we humans consider evil or bad/destructive and "Why does God let this happen?"  is indeed part of the "GOD PLAN", and as God is Good, as EVERYONE in every religion can conceede upon as truth, even the most vile, destructive, hiddious acts are only BAD when seen in short, narrowly focused vision that afflicts the apparant vast majority of humanity.  What I think the best humanity, as a whole, can do is understand that pain,suffering,injustice and other evils will NEVER exist at any place or time for any longer than is necessary for humanity to learn , adapt and overcome for the greater betterment of humanity.  

--MV67

spiritalk
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Post by spiritalk » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:06 pm

You raised Hitler for example.  Could anyone think there was a plan behind the Holocaust?  

I think the reasoning between Neitzche and Aquinas is like the extremes at either end.  Human endeavour generally would fall somewhere in the middle.
God bless, J

mysticvirgo
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Yes there was ultimate good

Post by mysticvirgo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:19 pm

spiritalk wrote:You raised Hitler for example.  Could anyone think there was a plan behind the Holocaust?  

I think the reasoning between Neitzche and Aquinas is like the extremes at either end.  Human endeavour generally would fall somewhere in the middle.
The war resultant of the war aganst Germany proved ultimate good on a technological front, advancements in electronics, radar, propulsion systems, automotive technology, aviation technology, computers, politics, communications, ect. Nations went from thinking nationaly to globaly.  

Economically, The world was in midst of a GLOBAL economic depression, the war efforts provided a boost in commerce and industry.  

 It proved good on humanitarian levels, sowing the seeds of the racial equality, the formation of the United Nations with ITS creation of hundreds of humanitarian relief programs, the formation of the Jewish anti-defamation leauge ect.

mysticvirgo
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continuation

Post by mysticvirgo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:53 pm

Picture a patient with some form of dibilitaiting illness, say a tumor or other such affliction.  The patient is faced with two alternatives, the excrtiating , but short term agony of a treatment that would provide the patient with a long, pain free and productive life or to allow the ailment to persist, to avoid the acute trauma and pain of the treatment, resulting in a short lived, nonproductve life filled with chronic pain?

  Look at all the past instances of concentrated evil manifesting itself..the wars, the plagues, the economic collapses... each and every one has resulted in the improvement of mankind , spiritually, Humanely, economically, technologically, creativly.   Through these "traumas" that the spirit of MAN becomes transformed and refined.  

  Truely imagine, if you will, if the great humanitarian catastrophe of the Holocast had not happened?  We would NOT be, as a race, as advanced in any way as we are at this exact moment.  Economically, politcally, hanitarianly, technologically, we would just now reaching a level equivilant to, say, 1960's.

sunmystic
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Re: continuation

Post by sunmystic » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:27 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:Picture a patient with some form of dibilitaiting illness, say a tumor or other such affliction.  The patient is faced with two alternatives, the excrtiating , but short term agony of a treatment that would provide the patient with a long, pain free and productive life or to allow the ailment to persist, to avoid the acute trauma and pain of the treatment, resulting in a short lived, nonproductve life filled with chronic pain?

  Look at all the past instances of concentrated evil manifesting itself..the wars, the plagues, the economic collapses... each and every one has resulted in the improvement of mankind , spiritually, Humanely, economically, technologically, creativly.   Through these "traumas" that the spirit of MAN becomes transformed and refined.  

  Truely imagine, if you will, if the great humanitarian catastrophe of the Holocast had not happened?  We would NOT be, as a race, as advanced in any way as we are at this exact moment.  Economically, politcally, hanitarianly, technologically, we would just now reaching a level equivilant to, say, 1960's.
Mysticvirgo you are totally fun! :)

I have been playing with God my whole life and based on my experience with that experience I have to agree with your conclusions :) .

To be honest with you I am not real happy about it, but I do think that you are right :) . There is a really big picture out their and most folks are only looking at a small part of this picture and calling that small part "the picture." So from their point of referance it is hard to understand the overall flow of mankind's developing developement.

One could also say that this developement is the result of Mankind being genetically inclined to move toward a more functional group reality because mankind's survival has always been the result of a functual group effort :) and because mankind is now world wide we are experiencing growing pains as smaller groups are adjusting to functioning as one large group because mankind is genetically inclined to do that. :)

I personally know that there is God because I am experiencing Him, but I do not think that there has to be God because of Mankind being genetically inclined to move toward a more functional group effort.

?

love,

sunmystic

mysticvirgo
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ah hah!

Post by mysticvirgo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:59 am

But entertain this idea... (and entering the realm of intellegent design)  that that very inclination towards group effort IS part and parcel of God's plan?

Or, perhaps we can start to slide over into Gaianism?  Perhaps gaia is devolving the "organelle" of humanity for a greater purpose?  Ponder ponder ponder and all without any artificial neural enhancements whatsoever! WHEEE!!

SM, want some paste?  It's organic and anti-biotic free! Counts as a milk serving!

spiritalk
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Re: Yes there was ultimate good

Post by spiritalk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:59 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:
spiritalk wrote:You raised Hitler for example.  Could anyone think there was a plan behind the Holocaust?  

I think the reasoning between Neitzche and Aquinas is like the extremes at either end.  Human endeavour generally would fall somewhere in the middle.
The war resultant of the war aganst Germany proved ultimate good on a technological front, advancements in electronics, radar, propulsion systems, automotive technology, aviation technology, computers, politics, communications, ect. Nations went from thinking nationaly to globaly.  

Economically, The world was in midst of a GLOBAL economic depression, the war efforts provided a boost in commerce and industry.  

 It proved good on humanitarian levels, sowing the seeds of the racial equality, the formation of the United Nations with ITS creation of hundreds of humanitarian relief programs, the formation of the Jewish anti-defamation leauge ect.

And again we arrive at a Global economic depression, is the war the answer?  The economies of the western world are based on the war machine and they have still come to depression.  Is the world just plane sick of war?
God bless, J

spiritalk
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Re: continuation

Post by spiritalk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:01 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:Picture a patient with some form of dibilitaiting illness, say a tumor or other such affliction.  The patient is faced with two alternatives, the excrtiating , but short term agony of a treatment that would provide the patient with a long, pain free and productive life or to allow the ailment to persist, to avoid the acute trauma and pain of the treatment, resulting in a short lived, nonproductve life filled with chronic pain?

  Look at all the past instances of concentrated evil manifesting itself..the wars, the plagues, the economic collapses... each and every one has resulted in the improvement of mankind , spiritually, Humanely, economically, technologically, creativly.   Through these "traumas" that the spirit of MAN becomes transformed and refined.  

  Truely imagine, if you will, if the great humanitarian catastrophe of the Holocast had not happened?  We would NOT be, as a race, as advanced in any way as we are at this exact moment.  Economically, politcally, hanitarianly, technologically, we would just now reaching a level equivilant to, say, 1960's.

I can not for a moment fault the reasoning.  But I question if there is not another manner of advancement.

We all, individually and collectively, have free will choices.  Look at our Global and collective choices!  How well are they serving us as human beings?

The patient chooses life or death for themselves.  Do we as society have a right to choose that for another human being?  And yet...we attempt to see it that way all the time.

There is also the thought in philosophy that the wars are keeping the population in check.  What a method to use?

God bless, J

sunmystic
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Re: ah hah!

Post by sunmystic » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:03 pm

mysticvirgo wrote:But entertain this idea... (and entering the realm of intellegent design)  that that very inclination towards group effort IS part and parcel of God's plan?

Or, perhaps we can start to slide over into Gaianism?  Perhaps gaia is devolving the "organelle" of humanity for a greater purpose?  Ponder ponder ponder and all without any artificial neural enhancements whatsoever! WHEEE!!

SM, want some paste?  It's organic and anti-biotic free! Counts as a milk serving!
Mystic, I love paste :) it is right up there with a pint of ale! "neural enhancements" :) Nirvana and bliss are addictive. One needs to approach them with caution :) !

"a part and parcel of God's plan" :) I don't think, when it comes to mankind, that God has a plan. He may have started out with one, but I think that after Noah :) he just gave up :) . I think that at this point He just hopes for the best and that love will find a way :) .  

love you!

sunmystic :)

spiritalk
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Post by spiritalk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:09 pm

Among other gifts or traits God gave to human existence, is free will choices.  As a friend of mine is wont to say..."perhaps God should have settled for a toaster oven instead."  We get ourselves into so much trouble exercising what we consider our free will choices.

The natural law slaps us back into shape when we have gone too far out of bounds.  So yes, I think the plan is in place because we also have natural law.
God bless, J

sunmystic
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Post by sunmystic » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:36 pm

spiritalk wrote:Among other gifts or traits God gave to human existence, is free will choices.  As a friend of mine is wont to say..."perhaps God should have settled for a toaster oven instead."  We get ourselves into so much trouble exercising what we consider our free will choices.

The natural law slaps us back into shape when we have gone too far out of bounds.  So yes, I think the plan is in place because we also have natural law.
Spirit talk you are the one that claims that we are all just here to learn. Without "free will" :) I guess that we would all just have nothing to do :) .

And in truth we are all contained in a "slap back" reality. So God is too good to us :) ! But then He loves His children :) and they have something to do.

Love you,

sunmystic

spiritalk
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Post by spiritalk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:23 pm

The idea of lessons certainly did not originate with me.  As a matter of fact I took a long time over that particular concept.  

I think the earth life is worth more than simple lessons.  But I do see that it is about our spirituality.  Without lessons in this life, we would not enhance that spirituality and wake up our existence to so much more than the material energy can supply.
God bless, J

mysticvirgo
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Re: ah hah!

Post by mysticvirgo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:49 pm

sunmystic wrote:
mysticvirgo wrote:But entertain this idea... (and entering the realm of intellegent design)  that that very inclination towards group effort IS part and parcel of God's plan?

Or, perhaps we can start to slide over into Gaianism?  Perhaps gaia is devolving the "organelle" of humanity for a greater purpose?  Ponder ponder ponder and all without any artificial neural enhancements whatsoever! WHEEE!!

SM, want some paste?  It's organic and anti-biotic free! Counts as a milk serving!
Mystic, I love paste :) it is right up there with a pint of ale! "neural enhancements" :) Nirvana and bliss are addictive. One needs to approach them with caution :) !

"a part and parcel of God's plan" :) I don't think, when it comes to mankind, that God has a plan. He may have started out with one, but I think that after Noah :) he just gave up :) . I think that at this point He just hopes for the best and that love will find a way :) .  

love you!

sunmystic :)
Nirvana and bliss are indeed addictive. especially for ones who aren't fully "here"  
Now we are edging into the discussion of free will or not free will.
If , indeed, there is a "plan" for humanity, then freewill becomes a delusion/illusion.  If there is no "plan" then we are all as leaves floating in a stream.  Both ideas are equally disturbing

Apologies for not posting in this forum for few days. Astrological matters have been taking the forefront.  ANd my first ever Blog.   ANd the daily mundane insanities LOL

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