GOD IS WITH FORM OR WITHOUT FORM

[dattaswami]

Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God.


Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space. Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells.

Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption. There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form.

Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only. A devotee by name Jyothi asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. She should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only.

God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.

Suppose some parents requested the management of a school to provide a park for waiting. The management is capable of doing so and it is the earnest desire of some parents. Suppose, there are some parents who do not like the facility of the park. They should not object those parents who want to use the facility of the park. They should also not oppose the management in the construction of the park. It is the duty of the management to inform the availability of the park so that any parent who ever desires to use that facility can use it apart from those parents who requested for it. If this general information is not provided to all the parents, some may ask the management regarding their negligence in informing the parents. Similarly, God comes in human form based on the prayers of some top most devotees to give direct experience. Through the human body the experience is not only direct but also complete. Such experience is not possible in the formless worship or in the worship of the statues. Such worship of formless God and statues is only a representative worship. It is just like worshipping the statue of the king and not the direct worship of the king.

When you break a coconut near the statue, you can offer it by waving the hand and then eat it yourself. But when we break the coconut before the actual king, the king is fond of the pieces of coconut and will eat the entire coconut. When you want to avoid such inconvenience, you need not worship the human incarnation. You break the coconut before the statue and eat it yourself. But there is a fellow who wants to really offer the coconut to the king. He is pleased only when the king eats that coconut. He feels happy by seeing the happiness in the face of the king, while eating that coconut. What right you have to object such person? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?

[AMANUSH-FORCE]

Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God.


Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space. Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells.

Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption. There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form.

Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only. A devotee by name Jyothi asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. She should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only.

God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.

Suppose some parents requested the management of a school to provide a park for waiting. The management is capable of doing so and it is the earnest desire of some parents. Suppose, there are some parents who do not like the facility of the park. They should not object those parents who want to use the facility of the park. They should also not oppose the management in the construction of the park. It is the duty of the management to inform the availability of the park so that any parent who ever desires to use that facility can use it apart from those parents who requested for it. If this general information is not provided to all the parents, some may ask the management regarding their negligence in informing the parents. Similarly, God comes in human form based on the prayers of some top most devotees to give direct experience. Through the human body the experience is not only direct but also complete. Such experience is not possible in the formless worship or in the worship of the statues. Such worship of formless God and statues is only a representative worship. It is just like worshipping the statue of the king and not the direct worship of the king.

When you break a coconut near the statue, you can offer it by waving the hand and then eat it yourself. But when we break the coconut before the actual king, the king is fond of the pieces of coconut and will eat the entire coconut. When you want to avoid such inconvenience, you need not worship the human incarnation. You break the coconut before the statue and eat it yourself. But there is a fellow who wants to really offer the coconut to the king. He is pleased only when the king eats that coconut. He feels happy by seeing the happiness in the face of the king, while eating that coconut. What right you have to object such person? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?

If one is seeing god with form then what about formless things like love,emotions,feelings,energy,breath where did they come from ,didn't they arise from the absolute.
And if one sees god only as formless then what about the things which have form like our body,grass,trees,birds ,where did they come from ,didn't they arise from the absolute.
Wether form or formless the absolute is present [or one can say Absolute is] in each and every creation irrespective of the case that it is in form or formless  :smt020

[lighting strikes twice]

Beyond Form and Formless what do you have?

[dattaswami]

Do you ....erson? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?

If one is seeing god with form then what about formless things like love,emotions,feelings,energy,breath where did they come from ,didn't they arise from the absolute.
And if one sees god only as formless then what about the things which have form like our body,grass,trees,birds ,where did they come from ,didn't they arise from the absolute.
Wether form or formless the absolute is present [or one can say Absolute is] in each and every creation irrespective of the case that it is in form or formless  :smt020

God is neither formless nor has form.  In the creation both formless objects like air and form-full objects like earth exist.  Because of this reason God is neither formless nor form-full since both are imaginable.  Veda says that God is unimaginable.  But God comes in human form, which is useful to the humanity in all directions.  The main aim of the human form is preaching Divine Knowledge.  That is why God has taken a human form which is very much useful to the humanity in various angles.  You have to worship such form taken by God.  He is not your servant to come in the form you desire. In Gita the Lord said that He will approach the devotee in the same path as the devotee approaches.  This does not mean that He will take the form as you like. You can take any form you like which can be a representative of God (Pratika) but God does not exist in it.  

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.

[lighting strikes twice]

God only beholds Himself.

[dattaswami]

God only beholds Himself.

God alone knows God

Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think any thing, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. The form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries since the air or water has certain limits. You call the space as formless object. But the space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived. When you think God as awareness (Chit), the awareness is mind, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, the space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, the space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider the space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation. You are calling the object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries, which are imagined, as formless. Since, such formless object also is a form in strict sense. Formless concept is impossible.

Therefore, whether you say that God created the space or God created the energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy only. Veda said that Para Brahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah..). The Veda says again that Para Brahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo..). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of Science. However, let such space or energy be called as formless God in your language. Even to think such formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such concept in his mind for a long time. Even if you maintain such concept, such God is not the absolute God because absolute God is completely unimaginable as per Veda and Gita (Yasyaa matam…., Mamtu Veda Na…). God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute the God, who is beyond space and awareness. Veda says that God created space. Veda says that God is beyond awareness. The creator is always beyond the creation. Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist. According to Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this Universe as creator and is the material cause also. The pot maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of pot, the pot maker and the mud exist. Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the Universe.

The pot maker and mud exists even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, after the destruction of the world also God must exist. Similarly God must exist before the creation of the space and after the dissolution of the space. You can never imagine the situation, which is before the creation or after dissolution of space. Your intelligence cannot cross the special dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine the God. Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).

Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such imagination itself is an item of creation only. Such imagination is only the incarnation of the God. When you imagine Him as space, God has entered the space and God is in the space. Similarly, if you imagine God as all pervading energy, you have imagined the energy only in which God is present. Therefore, you perceive God as space or inert energy or mental energy (awareness) and such form of God is only the incarnation of God in the form of space or inert energy or awareness. This means you can perceive only the incarnation of God and never the absolute God.

[lighting strikes twice]

God only beholds Himself.

God alone knows God

Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think any thing, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. The form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries since the air or water has certain limits. You call the space as formless object. But the space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived. When you think God as awareness (Chit), the awareness is mind, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, the space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, the space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider the space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation. You are calling the object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries, which are imagined, as formless. Since, such formless object also is a form in strict sense. Formless concept is impossible.

Therefore, whether you say that God created the space or God created the energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy only. Veda said that Para Brahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah..). The Veda says again that Para Brahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo..). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of Science. However, let such space or energy be called as formless God in your language. Even to think such formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such concept in his mind for a long time. Even if you maintain such concept, such God is not the absolute God because absolute God is completely unimaginable as per Veda and Gita (Yasyaa matam…., Mamtu Veda Na…). God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute the God, who is beyond space and awareness. Veda says that God created space. Veda says that God is beyond awareness. The creator is always beyond the creation. Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist. According to Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this Universe as creator and is the material cause also. The pot maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of pot, the pot maker and the mud exist. Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the Universe.

The pot maker and mud exists even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, after the destruction of the world also God must exist. Similarly God must exist before the creation of the space and after the dissolution of the space. You can never imagine the situation, which is before the creation or after dissolution of space. Your intelligence cannot cross the special dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine the God. Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).

Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such imagination itself is an item of creation only. Such imagination is only the incarnation of the God. When you imagine Him as space, God has entered the space and God is in the space. Similarly, if you imagine God as all pervading energy, you have imagined the energy only in which God is present. Therefore, you perceive God as space or inert energy or mental energy (awareness) and such form of God is only the incarnation of God in the form of space or inert energy or awareness. This means you can perceive only the incarnation of God and never the absolute God.

Greetings Datta! The statement that only God can know God, is absolutely true and therefor, God is beyond any thoughts we might have of Him. It is also true that one can not know the Divine Mind, lest God grace the soul. Some would find this disheartening. What would you tell these?

[looking_glass]

You cannot be disappointed by that which you do not know.

[looking_glass]

That's what I would tell them.

[lighting strikes twice]

You cannot be disappointed by that which you do not know.

Hi Looking _Glass! Buddha say, that life is suffering and he gives one example of suffering when he says that wanting things you can't have is suffering and suffering also exists in that even the things we do have is suffering because we have to let them go. Desire is the culprit! Yet, we are commended to seek God with all our hearts and minds and to be Holy as He is Holy and some would say, if I can not know Him, who created it all, I don't want to live anymore. What do you tell him?

[looking_glass]

You cannot be disappointed by that which you do not know.

Hi Looking _Glass! Buddha say, that life is suffering and he gives one example of suffering when he says that wanting things you can't have is suffering and suffering also exists in that even the things we do have is suffering because we have to let them go. Desire is the culprit! Yet, we are commended to seek God with all our hearts and minds and to be Holy as He is Holy and some would say, if I can not know Him, who created it all, I don't want to live anymore. What do you tell him?

I would say, let it be. You cannot know him with your mind, but your heart will understand if you allow it. Just as with suffering, allow it to be. The only change that comes is within your/our minds. I would then say, that is my way, but you must find your way.

[lighting strikes twice]

You cannot be disappointed by that which you do not know.

Hi Looking _Glass! Buddha say, that life is suffering and he gives one example of suffering when he says that wanting things you can't have is suffering and suffering also exists in that even the things we do have is suffering because we have to let them go. Desire is the culprit! Yet, we are commended to seek God with all our hearts and minds and to be Holy as He is Holy and some would say, if I can not know Him, who created it all, I don't want to live anymore. What do you tell him?

I would say, let it be. You cannot know him with your mind, but your heart will understand if you allow it. Just as with suffering, allow it to be. The only change that comes is within your/our minds. I would then say, that is my way, but you must find your way.

The condition of such a disciple as I have described, is he closer to God in this condition, or further away?

[looking_glass]

You cannot be disappointed by that which you do not know.

Hi Looking _Glass! Buddha say, that life is suffering and he gives one example of suffering when he says that wanting things you can't have is suffering and suffering also exists in that even the things we do have is suffering because we have to let them go. Desire is the culprit! Yet, we are commended to seek God with all our hearts and minds and to be Holy as He is Holy and some would say, if I can not know Him, who created it all, I don't want to live anymore. What do you tell him?

I would say, let it be. You cannot know him with your mind, but your heart will understand if you allow it. Just as with suffering, allow it to be. The only change that comes is within your/our minds. I would then say, that is my way, but you must find your way.

The condition of such a disciple as I have described, is he closer to God in this condition, or further away?

To me that is a condition of the mind. He is neither closer nor further away. His relationship to God is the same. The difference is only in the mind, which either hampers us or propels us.

[lighting strikes twice]

I understand where you are coming from and yet, I believe that the devotee is closer to God, who is in this condition, for he begins to surrender. The mind is a wonderful servant and a lousy master as the saying goes, and I am convinced that at some point in the devotee's journey that the mind also must drop off. After all, what we perceive has been conditioned not only because of the limitations of the flesh, eyes, nose, ears and also are perceptions are framed much in part due to our upbringing by parents and culture. The conceptual self is in the place of God and hides God from us. For me to be a true seeker, I believe I must question my very own perception of who I think I am and what I have been told I am and how the world flows. The heart is the spiritual heart but who can know it? We sit in our spiritual heart and watch the entire drama that we call our life and we watch the idea permeate the different levels and manifest.

[looking_glass]

I understand where you are coming from and yet, I believe that the devotee is closer to God, who is in this condition, for he begins to surrender. The mind is a wonderful servant and a lousy master as the saying goes, and I am convinced that at some point in the devotee's journey that the mind also must drop off. After all, what we perceive has been conditioned not only because of the limitations of the flesh, eyes, nose, ears and also are perceptions are framed much in part due to our upbringing by parents and culture. The conceptual self is in the place of God and hides God from us. For me to be a true seeker, I believe I must question my very own perception of who I think I am and what I have been told I am and how the world flows. The heart is the spiritual heart but who can know it? We sit in our spiritual heart and watch the entire drama that we call our life and we watch the idea permeate the different levels and manifest.

I understand. As I said, I feel the mind keeps us back or it propels us, but we cannot know this unless we shed the mind as you have said. I believe none is closer nor farther from God than the other, but by giving in/letting things be/seek from within our spiritual heart this makes one more aware of their relationship with God. It is then that one begins to see they are not separate, above, nor below.